Why is there 1200 range unblockable pulls in WvW?

[Shroud.2307]

 

2 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

pulls need to be affected by line of sight, and at least a reduction to 900 range would be good. it's a cheesy tactic overall.

 

there's not a lot outside of firebrand that gives stab. scrapper can, but that's not on every scrapper.

 

this ganker-crybabism with "mimimi boonball"... is like entering spvp and expecting people to only 1v1 you - while certain classes like holo and thieves are basically, despite amongst the better duelists, are seeking for 2v1s to get faster kills even there. and others like the burn-dh are way better against more enemies due to the aoe of the traps and SoJ's...

 

...tiny groups that secure flanks and finish downed could technically work, but practically the coordination between the one-party-groups and the main blob rarely works alike.  its usually the cloud that refuses to join but walks with a zerg or blob who either does that job ideally. often enough those are just mispositioning and feeding, rallybotting or afking into the enemy push.

 

that to be said, the group would still need scrapper and firebrand or they get just pulled and 111'd by the enemy blob. or immobilized and ganked by the enemy cloud.

 

commander pulling is kinda dorky. the situation that is talked about here, is when during fights between two groups, some gankers go fishing for the comm with pulls.

would be good if stability was like superspeed, so non-strippable or corruptable.

I think all forms of gameplay should be supported in WvW;
Solo, small scale, havoc, guild, public, zerg.

As of right now, public and zerg are the only things that are really supported.
The difference being- public is a guild fronting a squad of pugs, something like 10 - 20(ish) guild members with an open squad and 30+ pugs, where as a zerg is just a full pug squad.

Roaming, small scale, guild, and havoc are all perfectly doable, but I'd hardly call them supported due to their general extreme difficulty and unrewarding nature. You only really continue to do it if you;
are exploiting some kind of carry build(s) or comps,
are extremely stubborn and self-loathing,
or are a very highly skilled player(s) that can at least manage the difficulties.

There aren't a lot of guilds that continue to raid closed squads and are actually able to consistently win fights without either being very numerous, or using a heavy sustain comp. And when either of those things happen, they tend to be so dominate that there's nothing that can stop them short of a fully sieged Keep where people can infinitely run back and overwhelm them.

There's no middle ground for guild groups right now. Either nothing can oppose them, or they get steamrolled because pugs can be nearly as effective as a full squad in comms just by spamming skills due to how overloaded zerg builds are with damage and support. Co-ordination makes a lot less of a difference compared to what it did years ago.

So although pin sniping is absolutely toxic, what else are you supposed to do? If you've got a pug squad and the guild group is either larger or too tanky to fight, you're basically fodder. This is why I think under the right circumstances sniping is acceptable, but it's not something anyone should be doing regularly. It ends fight almost instantaneously a lot of times, and it's demoralizing for the losing group (even if the fault is also their own for not taking precautions to deal with this situation. Smart groups at minimum have a Mesmer ready to IOL). But again, most people don't do this, or don't know the opportune times to do it anyway, so I don't think it's often an issue. A comm gets pulled and nothing happens because they just pop their Stab and run back to their group.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

pulls need to be affected by line of sight, and at least a reduction to 900 range would be good. it's a cheesy tactic overall.

 

there's not a lot outside of firebrand that gives stab. scrapper can, but that's not on every scrapper.

 

this ganker-crybabism with "mimimi boonball"... is like entering spvp and expecting people to only 1v1 you - while certain classes like holo and thieves are basically, despite amongst the better duelists, are seeking for 2v1s to get faster kills even there. and others like the burn-dh are way better against more enemies due to the aoe of the traps and SoJ's...

 

...tiny groups that secure flanks and finish downed could technically work, but practically the coordination between the one-party-groups and the main blob rarely works alike.  its usually the cloud that refuses to join but walks with a zerg or blob who either does that job ideally. often enough those are just mispositioning and feeding, rallybotting or afking into the enemy push.

 

that to be said, the group would still need scrapper and firebrand or they get just pulled and 111'd by the enemy blob. or immobilized and ganked by the enemy cloud.

 

commander pulling is kinda dorky. the situation that is talked about here, is when during fights between two groups, some gankers go fishing for the comm with pulls.

would be good if stability was like superspeed, so non-strippable or corruptable.

My pull is effected by line of site and isn't very fast to make up for it. I can't even think about pulling you off of a wall unless I see your target circle at your feet overlap the ledge or make sure the ground between me and you doesn't have a little rock or mound of dirt on it that will block the pull for you. I don't feel like zeroing in on a commanders bar while exposed for too long to wait for the right time, I'll pull some support if I can or make my attempt obvious to make them think about a different angle than where tags are at for a second. That's where the risk is also because I don't have the same defense going on that they have and I can get pulled into them, either by mine being reflected or one of theirs. 

 

I still see guild raids crash into stuff but a lot of big fights now feel like they're more about maneuvering and setting things up and all sides are going to throw stuff at each other and try to trip up a few people to create opportunities. It's just another thing you have to think about with your own build even if you're squad tends to take care of their people. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by kash.9213

[Stand The Wall.6987]

using small group tactic argument as an excuse for pin sniping 😆

this isn't an issue, and even when its used 90% of the time its just a way to stall. the issue is when its most often used, either by a larger group against a smaller one or with equal numbers. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

I mean, I think it's lame if guilds pin snipe each other open field, but if you're running a comped group farming pugs in SMC/their keep, this is just an inevitable thing. It becomes fair game once you push into those things.

 

Of course, complaining about it is exactly what they want to see too....

 

In reality if 50 people want to kill 1 person,. they probably will; there's nothing you can do about that. I would think stuff like Moa is even worse in these regards.

Edited May 2, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Justine.6351]

23 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Or something like a small 5 man focus group within the squad that can be deployed to secure the flanks and keep small clouding annoyances away from the main zerg by long range pewpew.

 

Oh wait.

 

That's illegal.

 

Nevermind.

Hammer rev used to be able to fill that role. Too dumpster for that now.

[Dawdler.8521]

45 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Hammer rev used to be able to fill that role. Too dumpster for that now.

If the rev is in range to hit you, you're in range to pull them. Thats why longbow pewpew is vastly superior for it. But since that is not allowed, I would argue commanders *want* to be pulled.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Me trying to pull anything:
*Block* *Miss* *Out of range* *Block* *Miss* *Out of range* *Block* *Miss* *Out of range* *Block* *Miss* *Out of range* *Successfully pulled Stag* 
It's far too random and inconsistent. I've been in situations where Enemy was able to pull me and my pull was *Miss* or *Out of range* or just pass through enemy and don't affect it in the slightest.
I've even seen how CC simply was ignored without any kind of stab or stunbreak or even passive trait auto cc removal. 
Some pulls can bring you back from over 2k range and some won't work even if your enemy is standing still 50 cm away from your face.

[schokelmei.8271]

The biggest issue I have with pulls is that they are "unfair" based on your position. It's way easier to pull someone out of a structure than for the person inside the structure to attack you, but that is a problem for nine years now. 

I really never cared about commander pulls. If a zerg relies so heavily on a person telling them exactly what to do: bring a backup commander that continues when your main one gets pulled and killed.

Yeah, I know GVG and stuff, but there is no GvG in the borderlands, if you want fair fights, go somewhere else to do that. Back in the days before HoT those windmill fights often got interrupted and farmed by a third party for a reason.

 

I can agree that pulls never should be unblockable at least.

[hunkamania.7561]

19 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

using small group tactic argument as an excuse for pin sniping 😆

this isn't an issue, and even when its used 90% of the time its just a way to stall. the issue is when its most often used, either by a larger group against a smaller one or with equal numbers. 

Exactly...  This is what ends up happening.  Bigger groups end up using it making the out number fights even harder.. 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

i was talking there more of pulls with over 1200 range, which they should not have, and pulls over structures. i had a necro pulling me once from cragtop into the cliffs, which was superweird and that whole angle should not have worked like this.

 

or a mesmer (i think) pull from the entry of one inner SM corridor, all the way outside over the wall. like i was either having unseen lag and therefore a misplaced position, or something else was just off. normally stuff like this does not happen, but it can app. only way to block pulls is to stand  behind sth that blocks pathing

also, Arenanet should change the effect detail settings. pulls should be better and always visible, while other pointless effect stuff is having too many optical effects imo

 

same thing with things like ranger pets, they can have weird amounts of distance away from their owner

 

no unblockable pulls would be surely a sweet thing. but this "pin sniping" isn't the biggest issue i feel. it can be annoying now and then, usually is okayish. often tags run too far ahead bc the squad is too slow following, then they can easily get stripped/pulled or bombed. that's not exactly a big wonder. there'd need to be the squad yet on him to cover his booty.

most impressive thing i saw in terms of pull-counter was a LAYS firebrand literally popping mantra during a mesmer pull, so the pull was cancelled after a pulled distance of like 100. (on a stream @  twitch). but kinda reaction is rare, and hard to pull of due to lags often. (was in a ~15v15 GvG)

 

@Shroud.2307

if everyone of the pugs knows what to do and how to play, pug squads can work. that's just rarely the case, true. bringing some nuts sets can help there, but a decisively bigger group can guard their downed too good, pugcloudgroups barely have a chance there.

a lot of big groups are not very tight though. in that case, if u have enough good players, u can just kite them off, even without voice. a tag is in that case only helpful if he understands how to move and directs the movement. seen enough of pugmanders who only feed the enemy group

 

the thing is, the better organized group will have more effective pulls, bc they can just have their chronos or  scrappers or necros swap to it. like, if fighting a cloud of 15 as a tight 30ish group, you won't need a lot of sustain in most cases. alone that fact makes ppl go for "fishing" builds. (because nearly everyone is aware that small groups will try to gank single players out of a bigger group rather. oddly, even some bigger groups try that alike instead of rather securing a full clear. that's showing weakness tho and gets often enough punished)

 

bigger numbers does not always win. a lot of matchups show that off.

Edited May 3, 2021 by kamikharzeeh.8016
additional response

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

i was talking there more of pulls with over 1200 range, which they should not have, and pulls over structures. i had a necro pulling me once from cragtop into the cliffs, which was superweird and that whole angle should not have worked like this.

 

or a mesmer (i think) pull from the entry of one inner SM corridor, all the way outside over the wall. like i was either having unseen lag and therefore a misplaced position, or something else was just off. normally stuff like this does not happen, but it can app. only way to block pulls is to stand  behind sth that blocks pathing

also, Arenanet should change the effect detail settings. pulls should be better and always visible, while other pointless effect stuff is having too many optical effects imo

 

same thing with things like ranger pets, they can have weird amounts of distance away from their owner

 

no unblockable pulls would be surely a sweet thing. but this "pin sniping" isn't the biggest issue i feel. it can be annoying now and then, usually is okayish. often tags run too far ahead bc the squad is too slow following, then they can easily get stripped/pulled or bombed. that's not exactly a big wonder. there'd need to be the squad yet on him to cover his booty.

most impressive thing i saw in terms of pull-counter was a LAYS firebrand literally popping mantra during a mesmer pull, so the pull was cancelled after a pulled distance of like 100. (on a stream @  twitch). but kinda reaction is rare, and hard to pull of due to lags often. (was in a ~15v15 GvG)

 

@Shroud.2307

if everyone of the pugs knows what to do and how to play, pug squads can work. that's just rarely the case, true. bringing some nuts sets can help there, but a decisively bigger group can guard their downed too good, pugcloudgroups barely have a chance there.

a lot of big groups are not very tight though. in that case, if u have enough good players, u can just kite them off, even without voice. a tag is in that case only helpful if he understands how to move and directs the movement. seen enough of pugmanders who only feed the enemy group

 

the thing is, the better organized group will have more effective pulls, bc they can just have their chronos or  scrappers or necros swap to it. like, if fighting a cloud of 15 as a tight 30ish group, you won't need a lot of sustain in most cases. alone that fact makes ppl go for "fishing" builds. (because nearly everyone is aware that small groups will try to gank single players out of a bigger group rather. oddly, even some bigger groups try that alike instead of rather securing a full clear. that's showing weakness tho and gets often enough punished)

 

bigger numbers does not always win. a lot of matchups show that off.

If my pull wasn't 1200 range I'd demand that it be super fast to have a chance to land before someone gets out of range. Like I already said, there's plenty of stuff to trip it up already. Have some reflects up or something.

[Shroud.2307]

3 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

i was talking there more of pulls with over 1200 range, which they should not have, and pulls over structures. i had a necro pulling me once from cragtop into the cliffs, which was superweird and that whole angle should not have worked like this.

 

 

Some pulls, like Spectral Grasp for example, are projectiles. They arc just like Ranger Longbow skills meaning they can surpass the 1,200 range mark if angled correctly. This also means they can be reflected and the skill will instead pull the caster.
When using Spectral Grasp in a zerg I always have Spectral Walk active before casting because there's a very high chance I'll end up sucking myself in to the zerg. You can do the same thing as a Thief with Scorpion Wire. In fact, I remember a specific time while on Warrior that I blocked and reflected a Scorpion Wire and the Thief pulled themselves off a cliff to their death.

Into the Void, Mesmer's Focus pull, has a radius of 600. For comparison, Meteor Shower has a radius of 360. That is a very large radius, but it's also not 1,200. The size means that using it on a wall will wrap it around the wall and reduce its effective radii, so it is actually less effective in this scenario, but what it is often used for to force people that are stationary off of siege.

The majority of pulls are actually projectiles meaning if you're quick and have a reflect available, you can actually make the pull work against the caster.

[Hesione.9412]

Temporal curtain has a range of 900. Into the Void has a range of 600. The max range of both skills together is 1500. The range is measured by direct line, so does not take account of the height and width of any structures situated between the pulled player and the caster. Which means that no line-of-sight is required to pull players, either.

[hunkamania.7561]

6 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Temporal curtain has a range of 900. Into the Void has a range of 600. The max range of both skills together is 1500. The range is measured by direct line, so does not take account of the height and width of any structures situated between the pulled player and the caster. Which means that no line-of-sight is required to pull players, either.

Atleast with that skill there's some counter play.. I can hear the sound and Dodge..  way better than all the crappy 1200 pulls

[Comus.7365]

somethings got to counter those lame rangers prancing around on walls shooting anyone who's barely visible.

 

which one is unblockable tho? 

[Baldrick.8967]

Personally I'm a big fan of cutting the head off the snake, so pulling and sniping commanders= fair game.  If killing one player makes you all run around like headless chickens than that reflects on you, not the sucessful sniper.

 

I'm also a fan of open field siege against blobby guild groups who think hugging each other is the only way to play and moan constantly when they have to face a cloud that won't just blob up and let them  steamroll in one push.  Sadly Anet listened to their constant load crying and nerfed the hell out of siege as it was interfering in their blob and slowing down their karma.

 

Use all the available tools- it's war.

[DeceiverX.8361]

My biggest gripe is the fact that most of them are barely visible.

 

Scorpion Wire and even SoJ have fair reads.  You can see the skill coming at you from cast animation until it lands.  SoJ isn't without its issues in blob fights due to being able to wait out stabs/wait for the bomb and really punishes non-stability classes from being able to join the larger group due to its higher projectile speed.  My approach on my necro at this point is out-reacting the pull speed with stunbreak dodge, which is double the cooldown and to be honest, a way faster pacing than most players can reasonably be expected to do.

 

Magnet and Mes pull are a royal PITA.  You simply don't see them coming due to obfuscation, and anything dependent on audio queues is bad for accessibility purposes.

 

I'd much rather see pin sniping come from something like a mesmer or thief just hard-engaging and popping a commander with damage than any tank build just more or less using abilities off cooldown and depending on buff uptime from the enemy team.

Edited May 4, 2021 by DeceiverX.8361

[Hymh.3245]

Tome of courage, stand your ground, hallowed ground, inspiring reinforcement, portent of freedom, dolyak stance, true nature while in dwarf, defense field.

 

Smh, I hate you Hunk, stop giving ideas.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Dyjyh.9642

[Celsith.2753]

On 5/1/2021 at 10:25 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

The real problem I think is  that the pulling of a single player can ruin a fight.

The real problem is that groups are so dependent on one person telling them what buttons to press and when, that they crumble when that person is dead.

 

As Hunk himself pin snipes I assume this is a parody thread to troll after a certain commander raged for hours on his stream that the engy standing very clearly infront of him waiting to pull him was unfair. 

 

A very visible engineer doing a very visible pull.

A commander who refused to put stability, a stun break, or blink on his utility bar.

 

Said commander decided to deal with this scenario by kicking every one out of squad if he had seen them die, because, 'He needed the IOL's for himself'.  Making the game fun for every one folks! All Inclusive squad! **ranger and thief not included. Offer valid only until I decide otherwise. Ahem.

 

The engineer pulling said commander wasn't killing him alone. He had ppl waiting to follow up the pull with damage. And even then, 5/10 times the attempt failed. 

Attempts fail due to:

Stability being applied, Auto stun breaks, Target dodged, Random blade of grass in the way, 'obstructed', 'out of range' and one of the biggest reasons against these boon shitting groups - lag making the pull go off some time into the future.

 

So that's most of the reasons the pull fails in the first place.  Overcome those and the next issue is -

The target actually reacts and presses buttons. 

Blinks, Personal stun breaks, stability can stop the action mid pull. Once pulled, blinks invulns, your 50 man squad actually reacting to get you back safely, etc etc  with the main giant CARRY ME being mesmers running double or triple Illusion of Life.

 

All that is before you even start thinking, 'hey, maybe there's counterplay?'

Because there IS counterplay, not least of which is.. killing the sniper.  gosh darn, if only ranger, thief, or engy had a roll in wvw.... 

 

Some commanders are so saturated in stability it's not worth trying to snipe them.  When you have a coordinated large squad - probably with 20+ out of squad extra - against rag tag pugs with no commander, the pugs ability to strip those boons is minimal.

If they're actually getting you on a consistent basis, you are terrible and your support is trash.

The counter argument to this is usually, 'it's not our fault you don't have a 50 man 30 support blob yourself'! Get organised!

To which I say.  Your way of playing is no more valid than any one else's. I have way more fun playing with my friends inside a cloud than when I get on firebrand and 'comp up'.  We have to find ways to counter your support heavy boon spamming mistake forgiving ball of choke sitters and you have to find ways to counter our counter. The game is already in your favour. How much more advantage do you need?

 

Having said all that.  I do think sniping the pin in fairly even fights is a dumb thing to do that ruins the fight for both sides.  Just like it ruins fights when you drag your support heavy in discord compd squad on to a map where there is nothing that can oppose it.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Celsith.2753

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

21 minutes ago, Celsith.2753 said:

As Hunk himself pin snipes I assume this is a parody thread to troll after a certain commander raged for hours on his stream that the engy standing very clearly infront of him waiting to pull him was unfair. 

 

To which I say.  Your way of playing is no more valid than any one else's. I have way more fun playing with my friends inside a cloud than when I get on firebrand and 'comp up'.  We have to find ways to counter your support heavy boon spamming mistake forgiving ball of choke sitters and you have to find ways to counter our counter. The game is already in your favour. How much more advantage do you need?

 

 

It's these things that make the game complex and beautiful really. People get mad but that's how it is. You play the game, you better be prepared to lose!

 

Nobody remembers the fearwall meta...but that was a meta at one point in EoTM. It's those builds that make us laugh...course it was at the expense of others, but again, it's these moments that we all play the game for really.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

let me guess, "fearwell meta" means a ton of fear to make people on the narrow parts of the EotM map autorun into their deaths while "feared"?
remembers me a bit like the claw island boss, that thing can also stack fear en masse xP

[LieToMe.7806]

The entitlement in here reeks. I especially love the guy who claimed that small groupers were crybabies then cried about people using a skill on a player. It's insane that anyone could create a thread like this and not see what an entitled child they sound. L2P or Log off. Simple.

[ArchonWing.9480]

4 hours ago, Celsith.2753 said:

The real problem is that groups are so dependent on one person telling them what buttons to press and when, that they crumble when that person is dead.

Exactly. How good can a player be if they are helpless because the tag gets shifted, and there's no one to take initiative to have a thought?

 

But then you have to understand a lot of squads are ego driven and centered around the tag. Most "pin snipes" are not pin snipes but rather the commander charging ahead of the zerg and becoming the natural target and of course they blame everyone else for not following them.

 

I would actually call those self-sniping.

Edited May 4, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[displayname.8315]

Who pulled Hunk??!  And why was he abandoned?!?!

[lodjur.1284]

CC and especially pulls/knockbacks are a big problem in WvW. Mostly the fact that there is no ICD to how often players can get stunned, but this is mostly a small-scale problem and not what this thread is about.

 

Pinsniping is not a reason why tho. Pinsniping is a very logical strategy that's quite easy to counter, if anything at least in regards to cc, whine about moa instead. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by lodjur.1284