HOTS had gliding. POF had mounts. What can EOD bring?

[Faline.8795]

Easy part first.  Yes to housing.  Long overdue, greatly needed.

 

Now, on to endgame, the bugagboo of Guild Wars 2.

 

I know some feel it is collecting different skins, and some high-end fractals.

 

But far too many people ask "What is the end game in Guild Wars 2?"

 

I've always struggled with that.

 

For me -- and this is just a personal opinion -- I'd like to see something to continually reach for.  Not ever-increasing gear since that is evil to people here.  But something to continue chasing.  Almost like skill points, but one that just keeps going.  But it can't make your character stronger.  Just something to brag about.

 

Maybe like Hero points, but you keep doing them, each time gets harder and harder.  "I have 500 Hero points".  "I have 600 Hero points".  Etc.

 

Something for the soloist to chase that doesn't have an end.

[Imba.9451]

Honestly, I have never seen the appeal in housing. But maybe that's just me.

[LucianDK.8615]

Housing is fake content that is just a waste of dev resources, it will never be a grand thing to sell a new expack. Doubly so in this covid era. Look at the sharply declining quality of the icebrood saga that clearly suffered because of a need to prep the next expack with their limited resources.

Edited May 1, 2021 by LucianDK.8615

[Linken.6345]

And why cant you do this now with spirit shards?

[mindcircus.1506]

1 hour ago, Faline.8795 said:

Easy part first.  Yes to housing.  Long overdue, greatly needed.

No thanks.

[PhantomGoddess.5174]

As for housing...Isn't that what the Home Instance essentially is?  I mean, it is already individualized already based on what each account has accumulated as far as instance nodes we put in there and whatever else we are allowed to collect for it.  So in essence, don't we already have something akin to Housing already?  Or, are you looking more for a personal house that you can decorate with chairs, couches, pictures, tables, etc?  Because I think the Home Instance already fits the bill and is already set up enough for Housing as is.  Could they add a few more bits and bobbles to it for us?  Sure!  But why do we need separate Housing outside of the Home Instance they've already provided?  To me, it would seem redundant.

 

As for "Unending Endgame."  Every story has an End.  That's just the way it is.  As for what your character strives for AFTERWARDS? That's usually what I see the PvP and WvW arena's for until the next Story Arc comes along.  Of course, if I have a few things left undone in the PvE area's or the Achievements lines, then I can go after them at my leisure.

 

Why keep adding things like "Hero Points" just so your character have an unlimited amount of them if they're not needed?  The Mastery system is in place to keep improving your character after you're max level, so Hero Points, after achieving you latest/newest needed Specialization, would be pointless unless they're used for something specific.  And Achievement points often lead to certain rewards...Now, I'd see the point of endless Hero Point accumulation if you were able to convert them to something else, like a currency (for instance...not likely...but for instance), but otherwise, after they've achieved their primary (well...only) goal, they're worthless.

 

Anyway, as for bragging rights, that's usually what the Achievement Points system is really for...and the PvP and WvW systems are for too.  Those areas of play are your true "Unending Endgames".  PvP (mostly) and WvW (if you're roaming) depend a lot on knowledge, skill and a bit of luck to get you through them for the most part.  As for the Achievement Points system, well, that mostly depends on how devoted you are on getting the points and doing the content to get said points.

[Roda.7468]

Y'all have never actually seen how dedicated mmo housing communities are,  and it shows lmao.  The creative outlet that good housing systems allow is a huuuuuuuuge draw to a sizable chunk of the live-game audience. And it's one of the two systems (the other being xiv's gpose) that I think gw2 could benefit the most from.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Remember guild halls, how have those turned out?

[Makion.3457]

I very much agree on housing, and a shell to put all the books I have unlocked through the years! 

[Teratus.2859]

I honestly don't know about housing.
Well ok in the form that it exists in other MMO's like a room you decorate with stuff.

For me I want something more akin to the Hall of Monuments in Gw1.. a place where all my achievements, minipets and prestigious items can be stored and shown off.. things that take a significant amount of time and effort to achieve.
Add to that certain upgrades from Gw2's Eye of the North like the crafting stations and Bank access etc.
Throw in a place to store all my lore books as well as all my home instance nodes and existing home instance upgrades too and give me the freedom to place them as I see fit.

If you have that as a base and then add the ability to decorate it with stuff then yes in this specific form I will be absolutely on board with player housing.
But if it's only this later part.. a room to decorate as I wish like a mini guild hall then nah, I don't need.
I don't want another Suns Refuge with decoration potential, it's just not worth it.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Makion.3457]

On 5/1/2021 at 8:40 PM, Roda.7468 said:

Y'all have never actually seen how dedicated mmo housing communities are,  and it shows lmao.  The creative outlet that good housing systems allow is a huuuuuuuuge draw to a sizable chunk of the live-game audience. And it's one of the two systems (the other being xiv's gpose) that I think gw2 could benefit the most from.

And that could be a great source of income for the devs so the game can keep going with perhaps a bigger staff.  Just look at ESO and Black desert.   ONLY in the stetic sense, not all that pay to grind bs

Edited May 3, 2021 by Altion.9576
to be more specific.

[mindcircus.1506]

30 minutes ago, Roda.7468 said:

Y'all have never actually seen how dedicated mmo housing communities are,  and it shows lmao.

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say. I've played many games with dedicated player housing systems and they all break down into three groups of players.
1. A Small dedicated minority who enjoy and benefit from the system for vanity, social or RP reasons.

2. Those who game the system as low effort as possible to achieve whatever buffs, achievements and benefits the system offers

3. The majority... who complete ignore it.

Source:Wildstar, FF14, Black Desert Online, City of Heroes, DCUO, Star Wars:The Old Republic, Everquest Landmark (all of which had strong housing systems).
If strong player housing was that important to an MMO's long term success then Wildstar would still be in business.

Painting player housing as something the majority of players in any given MMO do is laughable and saying that people who disagree this game needs it are clueless is simply an attempt to dismiss their opinions as invalid.

What is actually very likely is that people saying "no thanks" (such as myself) have engaged with these systems and seen little value to them.
They've seen the way these systems bleed developer resources while pleasing only a small number of players.

Edited May 2, 2021 by mindcircus.1506

[phreeak.1023]

Housing is good for making money. 

They could sell in the store furnitures, A Trading Post NPC, portals to all available maps.. Whatsoever. 

[mindcircus.1506]

15 minutes ago, Altion.9576 said:

And that could be a great source of income for the devs so the game can keep going with perhaps a bigger staff.  Just look at ESO and Black desert. 

Yes... let's look at Black Desert's Housing System:
Players use it for exactly two reasons:

1. Because the lifeskilling systems like Cooking and Alchemy flat out require it's use. (you must have a cooking station or advanced Alchemy station to progress the lifeskills past certain points and these can only be placed in a player's residence)

2. They game the system for buffs by stacking junk inside their housing in order to get buffs.
If you go to any publicly accessible player housing in BDO and look inside, by far the vast majority of these instances are a single room filled with junk objects to achieve the required number of points for a buff.
I will gladly go make a video right now and prove it.

 

But sure.... let's look at BDO, a flat out Pay to Win grinder, for ways to monetize this game.

Great idea there.

Should all the best Furniture that offer serious benefits to the player be gated in the gemstore?

Should they start adding buffs to gemstore pets? Should gemstore outfits offer gameplay advantages?

Is that the game you want to play?

Because that is what Black Desert Online is.

[Roda.7468]

25 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

They've seen the way these systems bleed developer resources while pleasing only a small number of players.

Ah yes, excuse me while I enter raid/high-tier fractals/pvp tournament threads and say "no thanks" to features or updates because each singular game mode doesn't appeal to >51% of the mmo populace despite taking up a lot of dev power.

Try reading my post a little harder?  Or maybe give some examples of how GW2 repurposing already existing assets and mechanics to apply to personal instances would "bleed"  resources from whatever precious content you're supposedly defending from this insignificant few? 

 

Come on now, housing is a relatively cheap (development-wise) niche that GW2 is missing, and it comes with the added benefit of being reasonably monetized to help fuel other parts of the game.  And with XIV's housing system being an absolute joke, it would be smart for GW2 to swoop in and provide a much more user friendly alternative.

 

And likewise, painting features as a "waste" and those who want it as "not the majority so they don't matter" with the rock solid reasoning of "I don't want it" is an even more blatant excuse to invalidate others.  So like, lets not.

 

(And really, gonna come at me with "housing is why wildstar died"? Like game design is that simple?  I'm willing to put money on housing, and its community being the reason why it lasted as long as it did, since they already had the housing system and all they had to do was add access to already existing 3d models for the housing community to use and they would buy those things up easy.)

Edited May 2, 2021 by Roda.7468

[Makion.3457]

11 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Yes... let's look at Black Desert's Housing System:
Players use it for exactly two reasons:

1. Because the lifeskilling systems like Cooking and Alchemy flat out require it's use. (you must have a cooking station or advanced Alchemy station to progress the lifeskills past certain points and these can only be placed in a player's residence)

2. They game the system for buffs by stacking junk inside their housing in order to get buffs.
If you go to any publicly accessible player housing in BDO and look inside, by far the vast majority of these instances are a single room filled with junk objects to achieve the required number of points for a buff.
I will gladly go make a video right now and prove it.

 

But sure.... let's look at BDO, a flat out Pay to Win grinder, for ways to monetize this game.

Great idea there.

Should all the best Furniture that offer serious benefits to the player be gated in the gemstore?

Should they start adding buffs to gemstore pets? Should gemstore outfits offer gameplay advantages?

Is that the game you want to play?

Because that is what Black Desert Online is.

Well It doesnt need to be EXACTLY like eso since we already have stablished systems to cook and do other things, I would be ok if it were only stetic stuff to give our characters a home and perhaps to display books or armors.  

[mindcircus.1506]

1 minute ago, Altion.9576 said:

Well It doesnt need to be EXACTLY like eso since we already have stablished systems to cook and do other things, I would be ok if it were only stetic stuff to give our characters a home and perhaps to display books or armors.  

You SPECIFICALLY mentioned BDO as a pattern for monetizing this feature.

Have you even tried it?

[mindcircus.1506]

9 minutes ago, Roda.7468 said:

Ah yes, excuse me while I enter raid/high-tier fractals/pvp tournament threads and say "no thanks" to features or updates because each singular game mode doesn't appeal to >51% of the mmo populace despite taking up a lot of dev power.

Plenty of people do exactly this.
When Mighty Teapot ran his last tournament there were a couple of dozen posts on this forum, not just saying "no thanks" but actively throwing shade on Anet for supporting it.

Whenever anyone posts about wanting more raids, the same tired faces troll each and every posts about it saying exactly what you did.

 

Housing is a niche feature that brings very little to a game and pleases only a very small number of players.

Despite what you contend about it being cheap, informed no doubt by your extensive credentials in video game development, features like this take time and money.

If the end of Champions has taught us anything it's that Arenanet is short on both.

[Alin.2468]

Unending content: PvP. But real PvP, like new mechanics, new maps, GvG, battlegrounds, and so on. Sadly this game is not about PvP, instead is just a farming soloQ for bots as people voted in 2016.

[Makion.3457]

35 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

You SPECIFICALLY mentioned BDO as a pattern for monetizing this feature.

Have you even tried it?

Yes, I have played it and I forgot to be more specific and say Im only interested in the stetic aspect of the housing and not in the horrible horrible grind part of that system, like having the servants and all that.  I only wanted to have a place to call my own in the game. 

[Roda.7468]

16 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Plenty of people do exactly this.
When Mighty Teapot ran his last tournament there were a couple of dozen posts on this forum, not just saying "no thanks" but actively throwing shade on Anet for supporting it.

Whenever anyone posts about wanting more raids, the same tired faces troll each and every posts about it saying exactly what you did.

So we're in agreement that you're trolling this thread with your "It's bad cause I don't want it" posts? K.

 

Every feature in an mmo is a niche.  That's how they work. Raids, PvP, collections, crafting, legendaries, achievements, casual content, all slots to be filled so the game can satisfy an audience with diverse tastes in one game.  Its why MMOs are different from lobby shooters, or fighting games.  You don't get to say housing "brings little to the game" when you do not fit in that niche. I've known plenty of people for whom player expression IS their entire game, yet never once have I seen them be hurt that the devs were spending time on content they don't partake in. 

 

As for my reasoning for why it is relatively cheap, is because they already have a framework in place for spawning and placing decor with guild halls, and they already have a system in place where each character can have a (primitively) customizable personal instance in home instances. The development would need to go into some blank canvases, and some vendors to be a source of spawners for basic decor that doesn't need to be modeled/textured because the game has plenty of models to be used.  And then once the basics are up they're free to place strategic monetization bombs on it cause they can't do it with raids/fractals/pvp/wvw.

I wonder what content they had to sacrifice at the altar when they added guild halls, or when they made chairs in cities usable. because the sheer fact that time and money exists means that those features couldn't possibly exist without a blood sacrifice.  Clearly that's what happened to champions instead of complex internal issues surrounding leadership issues and the workload of an impending expansion. Chairs.... *clenches fist*

[mindcircus.1506]

31 minutes ago, Altion.9576 said:

Yes, I have played it and I forgot to be more specific and say Im only interested in the stetic aspect of the housing and not in the horrible horrible grind part of that system, like having the servants and all that.  I only wanted to have a place to call my own in the game. 

Actually you specifically referenced BDO's system as a way for Anet to make money.

You called it  a "great source of income for the devs so the game can keep going with perhaps a bigger staff".

 

Let's be clear about the gameplay loop that involves Player Housing in BDO and how it makes money for Pearl Abyss.

My bed, for example, is a way to recover energy that is spent on lifeskilling. When I gather resources like chopping wood or using a hoe to gather herbs, I spend energy. If I run out of energy I can't gather any more. Realistically speaking, after playing the game hard for a month I can gather for about 20 mins before that energy runs out.

One of the most efficient ways to recover energy is to basically leave the game up with my player sleeping in a bed. The bed of course requires a house for it.

The energy recovery in a Cash Shop bed is MUCH higher than the Energy Recovered in a Vendor Purchased or player crafted one. So much higher that in fact if I am not purely AFKing to recover, the only logical way for me, as a player to overcome this barrier is to fork over RL cash for a bed.
Want to change the type of flooring?

Cash Shop

Want to change the wallpaper?

Cash Shop.

 

This idea you floated that all a developer needs to do is put some pretty chairs in the cash shop and make enough money to "keep the game going with a bigger staff" is absolute hogwash. Black Desert Online proves this out. The only way a developer monetizes a system like player housing is with hurdles for the player to overcome that have microtransaction solutions.

This kind of genuinely predatory development behaviour is the kind of thing I avoid by playing Guild Wars 2. I would be very upset to see this game follow Pearl Abyss' lead in this regard.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

59 minutes ago, Roda.7468 said:

So we're in agreement that you're trolling this thread with your "It's bad cause I don't want it" posts? K.

This is Not how to have a good faith discussion.

[LucianDK.8615]

Well said about housing in the horror that is BDO. 

And what an Armchair developer the OP is, sure there might be assets in the game. But things still have to be coded and set up to have no bugs.   And that is critical development time taking away from content that matters.

[Sobx.1758]

Housing is far from needed or even meaningful.