Torment, fear and Insidious Disruption

[Lily.1935]

Although I'll probably make a much longer post in a few days about the balance changes that are going to be put in, I wanted to put in a minor suggestion in order to combat some of this anti synergy which will appear in the game with these changes.

 

My suggestion is to change Insidious Disruption to have the added effect of causing torment to deal an extra 50% damage against disabled foes.

[Apokriphos.7042]

Another option would to turn all torment access in necromancer to poison, which is both more thematic and less anti synergistic then the current tormenr fear interaction.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Apokriphos.7042

[KrHome.1920]

The torment rework is a quite significant buff to the PvE dps of scourge. It will finally get over 30k, which is okay for a semi support condi spec.

 

For the competitive modes, this is nothing more than a bandaid fix. ANet likes badaid fixes.

 

They call this patch is a preparation of the next expac. Maybe half of the new elite specs will spam immobilize. 😄

Edited May 3, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Dadnir.5038]

58 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

The torment rework is a quite significant buff to the PvE dps of scourge. It will finally get over 30k, which is okay for a semi support condi spec.

 

For the competitive modes, this is nothing more than a bandaid fix. ANet likes badaid fixes.

 

They call this patch is a preparation of the next expac. Maybe half of the new elite specs will spam immobilize. 😄

 

I do agree, the torment change is a godsend for the necromancer in PvE, thought the real gamechanger is more the 10% increase of condition damage on soul barb (unless I didn't understand this trait change properly).

 

There certainly is more than enough immobilize spam in the game thought.

 

As for the topic, I think it's a good thing that they changed torment this way. The current torment is very potent in sPvP/WvW because foes tend to move around a lot there while not really potent in PvE because "AI". Giving torment a sharper edge in PvE somewhat balance the fact that boon corruption still struggle to find it's place there.

[Lily.1935]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

I do agree, the torment change is a godsend for the necromancer in PvE, thought the real gamechanger is more the 10% increase of condition damage on soul barb (unless I didn't understand this trait change properly).

 

There certainly is more than enough immobilize spam in the game thought.

 

As for the topic, I think it's a good thing that they changed torment this way. The current torment is very potent in sPvP/WvW because foes tend to move around a lot there while not really potent in PvE because "AI". Giving torment a sharper edge in PvE somewhat balance the fact that boon corruption still struggle to find it's place there.

Necromancer specifically doesn't have too many ways to lock people down though. We have tainted shackles, Which does combo better now, bone fiend, dark pact for core and that's it, for Scourge we get Oppressive Collapse and on reaper we get Executioner's Scythe and "Chilled to the Bone!". Its a bit limiting IMO, and a majority of our disables are fear. So it would be nice to have a means to spike condi damage for a second or two since torment application has been both cut over the years and now basically nerfed in PvP and WvW by 50%.

This is just my perspective though and perhaps its fine, although the intention with Insidious Disruption and Terror was to have them work together as a means of high burst damage. Even with my suggestion I still don't think its all that good.

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Necromancer specifically doesn't have too many ways to lock people down though. We have tainted shackles, Which does combo better now, bone fiend, dark pact for core and that's it, for Scourge we get Oppressive Collapse and on reaper we get Executioner's Scythe and "Chilled to the Bone!". Its a bit limiting IMO, and a majority of our disables are fear. So it would be nice to have a means to spike condi damage for a second or two since torment application has been both cut over the years and now basically nerfed in PvP and WvW by 50%.

This is just my perspective though and perhaps its fine, although the intention with Insidious Disruption and Terror was to have them work together as a means of high burst damage. Even with my suggestion I still don't think its all that good.

 

The thing is that you see this change as: "it nerf PvP outgoing condition damage" while I see this change as "it balance PvP and PvE outgoing condition damage". I'll never stress it enough but the condimancer in PvP do have a lot more advantage than the condimancer in PvE, having torment working better in PvE even the field.

 

The intention with insidious disruption is to add damage to crowd control effects. And while you're seeing it as "It nerf terror build" (and you're right to see it like that), it doesn't change the fact that there is still added damage to terror builds. In fact, it probably open ta field of synergy for a necromancer e-spec with different mean of crowd control than just "fear" (for example knock down or stun, which aren't against the thematic of the profession even if there is no/low access to them yet).

 

To be honest, as it is fear already have to many synergy for a crow control effects. Be it Dread, insidious disruption, terror, fear of death, corruptor fervor, shivers of dread without forgeting the fact that it's the one of the few condition that benefit from expertise for increased duration and that the necromancer have uncanny ways to proc conditions on proc'ing conditions. All other crowd control effects on other professions pale in comparison to this amount of synergy. I mean, a reaper fearing a foe can apply chill, bleed, vulnerability, torment and gain quickness and fury, isn't that already enough? Do you really need the bit of synergy between fear and torment at this point? Scourge is less effective in term of number of following conditions but benefit from increased torment damage and the possibility to proc burn (which in itself is already bursty enough).

 

Math:

- Scourge with no condition damage:

1s burst by fear application current potential = 725; potential after patch = 743.

- Scourge with 2580 cdamage (scepter trait/condi amulet/25 might):

1s burst by fear application current potential = 2428; potential after patch = 2400.

- Reaper with no condition damage:

1s burst by fear application current potential = 576; potential after patch = 600.

- Reaper with 2580 cdamage (scepter trait/condi amulet/25 might):

1s burst by fear application current potential = 1973; potential after patch = 1962.

 

NB.: Pre patch I use Spite for bitter chill and 3% extra cdamage (3 vuln stacks) while after patch I use SR for soul barb and 10% extra cdamage. The 1s burst damage loss is abysmal (in fact you deal more cdamage at low amount of condi damage).

 

From my understanding of the patch this is the amount of cdamage potential lost for the fear/torment synergy. Impressive right?

 

 

[Anchoku.8142]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Impressive right?

Right. I expect more impactful balance changes in the coming months before the expac than the Torment mechanic change. If Necromancer's want to QQ, a better reason may come before August.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Anchoku.8142

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Small reminder here:

Hard cc on reaper doesn't matter here, as:

 

a) Reaper has terrible access to torment, that not being even it's third condition if you build for it (bleeds, poison and fire from dhuumire are just better).

 

 

b) trait itself is meme levels of bad, 3s torment on application of hard cc? Now take a look at other two curses minors..now back at this one...

[cobracommander.5861]

Make the change for pve only.

[Obtena.7952]

To be fair, Anet is implementing a change similar to what the OP suggests because of the torment changes; torment duration applied by Insidious Disruption is increasing from 3 to 5 seconds. Not only that, but not every disable in the necro toolkit is a fear so it seems the change Anet is making to increase the torment duration is sufficient to keep the trait in check as an Adept level trait that impacts all disables. 

 

Specific to the suggestion of the OP ... increasing Torment DPS 50% on disabled foes is way to much. I mean, you realize this suggestion would affect EVERY stack of torment, not just the one applied by the trait. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kuma.1503]

One way to balance out the changes while also making Necro much more valuable in group content. 

 

Give Fear a +X% condition damage taken modifier that lingers for the duration of the fear. That should restore the synergy between fear and torment, give players more incentive to run a necro in their groups, and it gives Anet something to balance Necro around in PvP. Less emphasis on simply loading up a never ending stream of condis, and more emphasis on "bursting" with fear. 

 

You could even rework Terror to "Fear Duration increased. Target takes full damage from torment while under the effects of fear"

Edited May 4, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[slave to the grind.5028]

On 5/4/2021 at 11:01 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

From my understanding of the patch this is the amount of cdamage potential lost for the fear/torment synergy. Impressive right?

 

 

Yes, it's impressive, because torment was 50% of condi necro's already less than stellar damage in competetive game modes.

In an ideal world, where the opponent has no condi cleanses and no invulnerability, no other counter measures to completely negate your damage, sure, you might be correct. But in reality, where we play GW2 in, you need (!) the fear/torment combo to get downs in pvp/wvw. It now no longer exists, and the only buffs to condi necro were for PvE only. R.I.P.

[Shroud.2307]

I feel Insidious Disruption should be-
Torment instead deals more damage to moving targets. 

EDIT
Keep thinking about ways to alter Torment and keep editing this, lol. I'll come back later.
 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Shroud.2307
Was thinking about it more

[Dadnir.5038]

23 minutes ago, slave to the grind.5028 said:

Yes, it's impressive, because torment was 50% of condi necro's already less than stellar damage in competetive game modes.

In an ideal world, where the opponent has no condi cleanses and no invulnerability, no other counter measures to completely negate your damage, sure, you might be correct. But in reality, where we play GW2 in, you need (!) the fear/torment combo to get downs in pvp/wvw. It now no longer exists, and the only buffs to condi necro were for PvE only. R.I.P.

 

Well, you're just wrong.

 

Torment amount to a lot for cScourge but amount to next to nothing for core or reaper. What you fail to see is that 10% increased cdamage on Soul barb affect every damaging conditions meaning that burn, bleed, fear, poison, confusion and torment deal more damage. The burst itself from Fear will be just very slightly lower while the sustained damages will significantly increase.

 

[slave to the grind.5028]

No, I actually play all three versions of necro in competetive game modes, or did until the day the patch notes were released. I know where my damage comes from and if you think the torment spike damage from boon corrupt and the torment AoE + fear combo does not matter for your regular necro shroud, you probably have not played those game modes with the class in question. Everything else is prone to cleanses immediately. Torment + Fear lockdown is where your actual kills come from against any player worth mentioning.

Edited May 5, 2021 by slave to the grind.5028

[XenesisII.1540]

So a question for the pve people, instead of reversing torment should they have looked at buffing Dhuumfire or Demonic lore instead in pve? They wouldn't have had to mess with torment mechanics, and those two traits can be adjusted separately as they already did with reducing their durations in the past. Seems like a simpler solution to buff condi dps on necros no?

[Infusion.7149]

Eh currently scourge damage split is like 35-40% bleed, 25-30% torment , 20% burning, 5% poison depending on where you are.

Limiting factor on Dhuumfire is going to be Manifest Sand Shade (F1) which has 8s base cooldown, which was hit in PVE as a side effect of WVW changes. Between Manifest Sand Shade , Devouring Darkness on scepter 3 (10 base cooldown), and the two torch skills (20-25s base cooldown) you are going to be limited in how much torment (and therefore burning) you can put out to maximize Demonic Lore.

The main reason is corrupt to torment + cripple is a problem when there's nothing to corrupt in PVE sometimes.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Anchoku.8142]

The Torment change is fine for both PvE and PvP. If Arenanet wants, they can adjust the split in condition duration or stack height between the game modes. No other mechanics changes are needed.

[XenesisII.1540]

26 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Eh currently scourge damage split is like 35-40% bleed, 25-30% torment , 20% burning, 5% poison depending on where you are.

Limiting factor on Dhuumfire is going to be Manifest Sand Shade (F1) which has 8s base cooldown, which was hit in PVE as a side effect of WVW changes. Between Manifest Sand Shade , Devouring Darkness on scepter 3 (10 base cooldown), and the two torch skills (20-25s base cooldown) you are going to be limited in how much torment (and therefore burning) you can put out to maximize Demonic Lore.

The main reason is corrupt to torment + cripple is a problem when there's nothing to corrupt in PVE sometimes.

 

But not really a problem if they adjust the numbers like duration or stacks for those skills in pve since they can do a split on numbers for each section anyways.

 

So I'm still baffled as to why they completely switch torment in this way instead of adjusting numbers for their other conditions. They completely buffed pve while completely nerfing the pvp side with this change, it's not like this is the one and only last resort change they could make to buff their dps. Torment was introduced as a compliment condition for fear which necro has the most access to, now it's the other way around which they have limited access to. But hey maybe the next necro elite will have access to a ton of stun locks/immobilize to make up for it /rolleyes

[wolfsblut.9435]

7 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

But hey maybe the next necro elite will have access to a ton of stun locks/immobilize to make up for it /rolleyes

Oh how much would I love a change and wider use of "Gravedigger: Bury someone slowly; 1 Feed (6s)"; And a combo finisher where we finally add a tombstone...

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

So a question for the pve people, instead of reversing torment should they have looked at buffing Dhuumfire or Demonic lore instead in pve? They wouldn't have had to mess with torment mechanics, and those two traits can be adjusted separately as they already did with reducing their durations in the past. Seems like a simpler solution to buff condi dps on necros no?

 

You get it wrong, the change to torment have little impact on the necromancer in PvE. The gamechanger tweek is Soul Barb affecting condition damages. (which is a simple solution in itself since adding 10% damage to 30k damage push you to 33k)

 

The Torment change is there for sPvP/WvW mainly because player constantly complain about "condi cancer" in these gamemodes. People really need to stop thinking that the patch is a "PvE" patch, this patch answer a lot of sPvP/WvW concerns and it's especially true for the torment and retal/resolve change.

 

And the magic of what they do is that the loss of torment damage in the terror burst is compensated by an increase in terror and burn damage (which are conditions that inherently deal high damage). If you assume that there is a high amount of condi cleanse in the environment, you can basically only bet on a 1 second tic of damage to your burst and application of boon. Which mean that for Scourge, you'll apply fear, 2 stack of torment (manifest sand shade proc + insidious disruption) and up to 3 stacks of burn (sadistic searing, demonic lore and dhuumfire) that won't last long (due to high condi cleanse environment).

 

Fact is that torment even traited deal less damage than burn. Assuming that the conditions won't outlive fear. We thus have an optimal burst of damage at maximum condition damage in sPvP (amulet 1200 cdamage, runes full cdamage, scepter trait, 25 might for a total of 2580 cdamage) with:

- Fear: terror -> 1476 damage

- 2 stacks of torment: Demonic lore -> 351/702 damage

- 3 stacks of burn: 1593 damage

 

Pre patch: 1476 + 1593 + 702 = 3771

After patch: (1476 + 1593 + 351) x 1.1 = 3762

 

Which is equivalent to a maximum loss of burst damage of 0.2% after patch.

 

 

[Warboy.2501]

12 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

12 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The Torment change is there for sPvP/WvW mainly because player constantly complain about "condi cancer" in these gamemodes. People really need to stop thinking that the patch is a "PvE" patch, this patch answer a lot of sPvP/WvW concerns and it's especially true for the torment and retal/resolve change.

Conditions do play a large role in WvW (I can't speak to PVP), but most don't involve damage; at least in current comps.  But, Scourge isn't even the predominant source of those that matter, not to mention the constant flow of CC stuns, pulls, immobs, etc.
 

Insofar as Scourge is concerned, it's become one of the most boring classes to play in WvW.  It's a cloth class now relegated to melee play where blindly spamming AOE 3 along with the occasional 2 or 5 with shades and wells held in reserve is how it's done. 

The demonstration of just how far astray the class has gone are erstwhile condi melee weapons used for burst. How many commanders want anything to do with a staff Necro in their comp?  And there's good reason for that.  It's all strips and corrupts, mostly within 600m now.  Why?  Because it's all  about corruptions, conversions and cleanses.

Scourge has become a support class, for stripping and corruption.  It's used for little else.  Damage is a derivative benefit.  And so when I read that Anet has decided to reverse the torment mechanic on the primary condition its condition class has, in order to reduce its damage, I have to wonder the direction scourge is headed.  

Adding two seconds to a now counter intuitive condition mechanic in a game mode where commanders have to time out extended fights so the ARC DPS 4,000 cleanse player threshold can reset has to be the dumbest class or condition mechanic change ever, at least IMO.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Warboy.2501
typos

[Nimon.7840]

On 5/5/2021 at 11:09 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

But not really a problem if they adjust the numbers like duration or stacks for those skills in pve since they can do a split on numbers for each section anyways.

 

So I'm still baffled as to why they completely switch torment in this way instead of adjusting numbers for their other conditions. They completely buffed pve while completely nerfing the pvp side with this change, it's not like this is the one and only last resort change they could make to buff their dps. Torment was introduced as a compliment condition for fear which necro has the most access to, now it's the other way around which they have limited access to. But hey maybe the next necro elite will have access to a ton of stun locks/immobilize to make up for it /rolleyes

I think the reason was mainly pvp modes.

 

You have 10 stacks of torment? Guess you gonna die.

The only counterplay (aside from cleanses) was to stand still, which makes it even easier for the enemy to put even more conditions on you.

 

By changing torment, you now have to put torment on your enemy, and then somehow immobilize the enemy, to deal big dmg.

 

My guess would be, that you will see much less solo condi revenants, but more paired with an immobilize ranger for example.

 

 

[Xaylin.1860]

7 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

I think the reason was mainly pvp modes.

 

You have 10 stacks of torment? Guess you gonna die.

The only counterplay (aside from cleanses) was to stand still, which makes it even easier for the enemy to put even more conditions on you.

 

By changing torment, you now have to put torment on your enemy, and then somehow immobilize the enemy, to deal big dmg.

 

My guess would be, that you will see much less solo condi revenants, but more paired with an immobilize ranger for example.

 

 

I don't think it's reasonable to assume either, it being solely PvP or PvE focussed. For me, there are at least three layers to it:

1. PvP: You will always want to move, making current Torment just a better Bleed.
2. PvE: You will always move, but most bosses won't, making Torment less appealing.
3. Cross-mode: Right now, Torment in PvP will almost always be > Torment in PvE

I'd argue it is an overall design issue, not a PvP or PvE thing. The idea of punishing movement is interesting, but let's be real: That's not how it plays out in PvP. Neither does it work for PvE. Well... mostly. It works just fine for mobs who apply huge stacks to players. But that's about it.

 

As Dadnir said, the new Torment is easier to balance across game modes and it is also easier to balance with other conditions like Bleeding, Burning and Confusion. Yes, it will cause balancing issues in both PvP and PvE at first, but in the long run I do believe it will be for the better.

 

Now,  this does indeed cause an issue when looking at Necromancers and Fear. However, ANet could easily change "not move" to "not move or affected by a CC" and we're done. In this scenario Insidious Disruption also doesn't have to be changed.

 

 

[Lexan.5930]

On 5/4/2021 at 5:01 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

The thing is that you see this change as: "it nerf PvP outgoing condition damage" while I see this change as "it balance PvP and PvE outgoing condition damage". I'll never stress it enough but the condimancer in PvP do have a lot more advantage than the condimancer in PvE, having torment working better in PvE even the field.

 

The intention with insidious disruption is to add damage to crowd control effects. And while you're seeing it as "It nerf terror build" (and you're right to see it like that), it doesn't change the fact that there is still added damage to terror builds. In fact, it probably open ta field of synergy for a necromancer e-spec with different mean of crowd control than just "fear" (for example knock down or stun, which aren't against the thematic of the profession even if there is no/low access to them yet).

 

To be honest, as it is fear already have to many synergy for a crow control effects. Be it Dread, insidious disruption, terror, fear of death, corruptor fervor, shivers of dread without forgeting the fact that it's the one of the few condition that benefit from expertise for increased duration and that the necromancer have uncanny ways to proc conditions on proc'ing conditions. All other crowd control effects on other professions pale in comparison to this amount of synergy. I mean, a reaper fearing a foe can apply chill, bleed, vulnerability, torment and gain quickness and fury, isn't that already enough? Do you really need the bit of synergy between fear and torment at this point? Scourge is less effective in term of number of following conditions but benefit from increased torment damage and the possibility to proc burn (which in itself is already bursty enough).

 

Math:

- Scourge with no condition damage:

1s burst by fear application current potential = 725; potential after patch = 743.

- Scourge with 2580 cdamage (scepter trait/condi amulet/25 might):

1s burst by fear application current potential = 2428; potential after patch = 2400.

- Reaper with no condition damage:

1s burst by fear application current potential = 576; potential after patch = 600.

- Reaper with 2580 cdamage (scepter trait/condi amulet/25 might):

1s burst by fear application current potential = 1973; potential after patch = 1962.

 

NB.: Pre patch I use Spite for bitter chill and 3% extra cdamage (3 vuln stacks) while after patch I use SR for soul barb and 10% extra cdamage. The 1s burst damage loss is abysmal (in fact you deal more cdamage at low amount of condi damage).

 

From my understanding of the patch this is the amount of cdamage potential lost for the fear/torment synergy. Impressive right?

 

 

first off, great math.

yea the torment change sucks but honestly after anet gave torment to everyone else when it was supposed to be a necro unique condi it's meh. bleed is still our top condi by far. for pve yay, for pvp meh torment wasn't killing people, bleed or poison usually was.

soul barbs, yes finally, took long enough