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Do we really need more stat combos?


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Posted (edited)

There are currently over 30 in the game and only like 6 of the sets see any actual play. will adding more stat combos that will never be used be even worth the Dev time?

I think instead of stat combos they should add in a system like they have in Elder scrolls online. The Champion System.

 

The Champion system in ESO for those who haven't played it works a lot like paragon levels in Diablo 3. but for clarity here is an explanation from ESO academy.

http://esoacademy.com/champion-system/

In basic terms, in ESO after level 50 you get champion points which you can put into base stats.

 

I think a system like this would be fun for players and let people have some freedom to personalize their Toon's a bit more.

 

I dunno *shrugs

don't kill me  :<

 

 

Edited by Terek.8923
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9 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Yes and its a sham that they did not add more in though the story like they use to.

New Stat combos are cool but like im saying in my post. do we need more? we dont even use half of the stat combos in the game already.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Terek.8923 said:

New Stat combos are cool but like im saying in my post. do we need more? we dont even use half of the stat combos in the game already.

Yes we need a prim crit dmg set at the very least we where promised one a VERY long time ago. I would love to see more "glass caon" power healing sets as well.

Edited by Jski.6180
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Posted (edited)

All stat combos are used. Its just that players only run full sets of a few stats, but mixed sets are created from virtually any stat to reach specific milestones.

 

Its the whole point of horizontal progression and min/max'ing.

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

All stat combos are used. Its just that players only run full sets of a few stats, but mixed sets are created from virtually any stat to get specific combinations.

 

Its the whole point of horizontal progression and min/maxing.

oh i was only aware of like 6 sets getting actual play could a single stat set work? like imagine a set that ONLY gives power but a ton of it. you would have low crit chance and crit damage but some classes can make up for low crit chance with certain skills and builds. it would prob be terrible but theory crafting lol.

Edited by Terek.8923
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We don't necessarily need *more* stat combos, but there are some stat combos that are missing, which should be added.

 

Best example of this is a condi version of Diviner's stats.  Diviner's (Conc, Power, Ferocity) allows power builds to provide boon support.  However, there is no Conc, Cond Dmg, Expertise stat combo, which would be the condi equivalent.  Now that condi is being emphasized for Renegade and Mirage is getting Alacrity support, this is particularly needed.

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Just now, Sonork.2916 said:

What about:

Power, Precision, Vitality, Toughness

Power, Ferocity, Vitality, Toughness

Power, Precision, Ferocity, Toughness

 

Anything with toughness and power in it is going to be a hard sell.
For PVE generally you don't want toughness, for WVW any stat with toughness needs to be balanced accordingly.

Power +precision major stats with toughness and vitality already exists , it's paladin amulet in PVP.
Power +precision major stats with toughness and ferocity already exists, it's demolisher amulet in PVP.

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I think adding more combos is a good thing.  Some of the current stat comboes are a little outdated, I agree. But making builds is part of what makes this game fun and different options are always welcome.

 

For instance, if they added a stat combo that was like marauders but with toughness instead of vitality, I might use that. Or if they had a trailblazers that had concentration instead of expertise or vitality, that would be useful for some builds too.  

 

Lots of combos would be good.  Some would be bad too, but thats how every MMO is.  I say more options the better.

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Well, personally, from all the mess that is the Mesmer traitline, i know i'd enjoy a few builds that would need to use stat combos that don't yet exist. It would also generally help with build diversity. But right now, it's impossible to fully utilize certain trait combos because no stat combo exists that would fully support them. And i'm sure other professions have such cases as well...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Terek.8923 said:

oh i was only aware of like 6 sets getting actual play could a single stat set work? like imagine a set that ONLY gives power but a ton of it. you would have low crit chance and crit damage but some classes can make up for low crit chance with certain skills and builds. it would prob be terrible but theory crafting lol.

They're used in WvW, where all stats are equally important. They're also used in PvE on specialised builds, especially those meant to solo very hard content. DPS meta builds are only optimal in instanced PvE group content, which is far from being the entire game.

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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Yes because it takes virtually no dev time compared to other systems. Its not like unique armor skins are tied to these, just a couple of item icons.

And they have a chance of provided alot of content, whole new builds and types of builds were introduced when because they added new prefixes. And if you don't think there are more stat combos that would be viable there are PvP exclusive prefixes, so they haven't even gotten through all of the ones they like yet.

Plus maybe they could introduce 2 stat combos, or more weird stuff like that!

Maybe its not your cup-of-tea but I love coming up with stupid builds!

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8 hours ago, Terek.8923 said:

what do you guys think of ESO's champion point system? would give us players more customization over our toons. doubt it would happen but yea lol.

 

We got enough power creep already mate no need to introduce another.

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Yes, especially for sPvP where currently the choice is artificially very limited.

One of the nicest things from these games to me is crafting interesting builds and fine-tuning hybrid stat combinations to get to a mix that I like.

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Open world pve focused thoughts from a noob:

I've wondered about the less well used stat combos for a while, as a fairly new player. Most metabattle builds I've come across go with 'every item you wear/carry is this one prefix' and those are almost always one of a handful. They then recommend adjustments but those adjustments seem to get criticsed on these board for being sub-optimal, so you feel like you're letting the side down considering anything sub-optimal.

I love theorycrafting and some stat combos I think, that might be interesting, but what I think I really mean by that is 'sacrificing purity of purpose for some versatility.'

e.g. the Vigilant stat (power, toughness, concentration and expertise) seems to offer a build some flat damage, increased boon duration and toughness for some sustain and expertise to increase...condi damage? It piques my interest to think about whether i could make that effective or find some nuance to an overall build where I can come up with something that could really shine.

Or Crusader's, with a similar rather curious combo.

Am I just being a noob in thinking that I can make a versatile and useful build for open world pve with off-beat prefixes?

Right now I just Lord Hizen my ranger and mesmer (trailblazers etc) and find I'm fine but a bit slow dps wise. I even never pick up the aggro as I guess I'm only in exotics so raw toughness isn't too high anyway. So other than trailblazer, some pure damage like berserk or viper, Harrier's for my druid, is there really a good use for anything else, particularly my two example prefixes above?

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13 minutes ago, Dithnir.4593 said:

Open world pve focused thoughts from a noob:

I've wondered about the less well used stat combos for a while, as a fairly new player. Most metabattle builds I've come across go with 'every item you wear/carry is this one prefix' and those are almost always one of a handful. They then recommend adjustments but those adjustments seem to get criticsed on these board for being sub-optimal, so you feel like you're letting the side down considering anything sub-optimal.

I love theorycrafting and some stat combos I think, that might be interesting, but what I think I really mean by that is 'sacrificing purity of purpose for some versatility.'

e.g. the Vigilant stat (power, toughness, concentration and expertise) seems to offer a build some flat damage, increased boon duration and toughness for some sustain and expertise to increase...condi damage? It piques my interest to think about whether i could make that effective or find some nuance to an overall build where I can come up with something that could really shine.

Or Crusader's, with a similar rather curious combo.

Am I just being a noob in thinking that I can make a versatile and useful build for open world pve with off-beat prefixes?

Right now I just Lord Hizen my ranger and mesmer (trailblazers etc) and find I'm fine but a bit slow dps wise. I even never pick up the aggro as I guess I'm only in exotics so raw toughness isn't too high anyway. So other than trailblazer, some pure damage like berserk or viper, Harrier's for my druid, is there really a good use for anything else, particularly my two example prefixes above?

 

You can make anything viable in open world. The people that cry "suboptimal" are 99% of the time Raid speedrunners and Fractal CM speedrunners that have calculated the precise DPS needed to most optimally beat an encounter (which is the definition of META), and anything that digresses from the "approved" builds gets laughed at or flamed because it loses .2% DPS.

 

And since those are the only people Anet cares about and balances global systems around, that means Zerker's and Viper's for everyone!

 

Additionally, you'd be surprised how many stat combos and how much build variety is used in WvW, but we don't talk about WvW on this forum. Anet certainly doesn't...

 

As for Open world - go nuts - try stat combos, who cares if you'll have .2% DPS loss over someone else, the world is your oyster!

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14 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Anything with toughness and power in it is going to be a hard sell.
For PVE generally you don't want toughness, for WVW any stat with toughness needs to be balanced accordingly.

Power +precision major stats with toughness and vitality already exists , it's paladin amulet in PVP.
Power +precision major stats with toughness and ferocity already exists, it's demolisher amulet in PVP.

I am curious. Why do you not want Toughness for PVE? I am running an Open World PVE Condi Weaver build using Dire gear and it seems to work out wonderfully for me. In Open World meta events as well.

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15 hours ago, Terek.8923 said:

There are currently over 30 in the game and only like 6 of the sets see any actual play. will adding more stat combos that will never be used be even worth the Dev time?

I think instead of stat combos they should add in a system like they have in Elder scrolls online. The Champion System.

 

The Champion system in ESO for those who haven't played it works a lot like paragon levels in Diablo 3. but for clarity here is an explanation from ESO academy.

http://esoacademy.com/champion-system/

In basic terms, in ESO after level 50 you get champion points which you can put into base stats.

 

I think a system like this would be fun for players and let people have some freedom to personalize their Toon's a bit more.

 

I dunno *shrugs

don't kill me  :<

 

 

Why argue for less options?

Maybe only 6 or so are used for "meta"... some of us however like to play with things like Seraph's or Plaguedoctor's...and because you don't personally see the value, those of us who do shouldn't get any new toys?

Does the introduction of a new stat set mean people can't gear in Viper's or Assassin's anymore?

 

Yeah.... nice point of view.

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50 minutes ago, Dithnir.4593 said:

e.g. the Vigilant stat (power, toughness, concentration and expertise) seems to offer a build some flat damage, increased boon duration and toughness for some sustain and expertise to increase...condi damage? It piques my interest to think about whether i could make that effective or find some nuance to an overall build where I can come up with something that could really shine.

Open World PvE I can't see a reason to use Vigilant, but I have used it on a meme druid build in WvW and it was surprsiingly effective and a fair bit of fun.

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1 hour ago, Eraden.8740 said:

I am curious. Why do you not want Toughness for PVE? I am running an Open World PVE Condi Weaver build using Dire gear and it seems to work out wonderfully for me. In Open World meta events as well.

In most cases marauder will be better for power builds will having minimal DPS loss to full berserker/ berserker with assassin's to hit crit cap. For condi builds you can use toughness because you are relying on sustained damage , the most common scenario is trailblazer.

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As other people have said I think more combinations are a good thing because it gives us more options. Just because you currently choose to focus on just 6 sets doesn't mean that's all anyone ever uses or will use. Having options available allows players to theory craft and come up with new builds, if choices aren't available then that can't happen even if someone's sure it could be better.

 

I even think it's important to have the possibility of making a totally useless build, because if you can't do it wrong then doing it right is meaningless. If Anet stripped away all the "bad" choices so only the best possible combinations are available then it just makes the whole system irrelevant, they may as well take away stats entirely and just have attack damage, health etc. as fixed values which cannot be changed at all. Except that would be much less interesting.

 

16 hours ago, Terek.8923 said:

The Champion system in ESO for those who haven't played it works a lot like paragon levels in Diablo 3. but for clarity here is an explanation from ESO academy.

http://esoacademy.com/champion-system/

In basic terms, in ESO after level 50 you get champion points which you can put into base stats.

It's a bit off-topic but I think attempting to explain champion levels to people who haven't played ESO by saying it's like paragon levels in Diablo misses the mark. That means absolutely nothing unless you've played Diablo 3. IMO it's better to just explain the system you're proposing (as you did) rather than trying to find a game you imagine everyone on the forum will know to compare it to.

 

15 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Anything with toughness and power in it is going to be a hard sell.
For PVE generally you don't want toughness, for WVW any stat with toughness needs to be balanced accordingly.

Power +precision major stats with toughness and vitality already exists , it's paladin amulet in PVP.
Power +precision major stats with toughness and ferocity already exists, it's demolisher amulet in PVP.

They're available in PvP, but it would be nice to have the same options for PvE and WvW as well. I always find it frustrating when I look up stat combination, see something which looks good and then find out it's only available in PvP.

 

13 hours ago, Terek.8923 said:

what do you guys think of ESO's champion point system? would give us players more customization over our toons. doubt it would happen but yea lol.

I think it causes too much power-creep and contributes a lot to the endless complaining that most of the game is too easy and boring for high-end players.

 

I don't use CP on any of my characters, except a few points in the craft (green) tree for things totally unrelated to combat. I spend the vast majority of my time doing overland questing and sometimes normal dungeons and I don't want it to be stupidly easy, when I got to level 50 (which was after the One-Tamriel update) I found the difficulty about right for me, so I just kept going without CP and I've never felt the need to change that.

 

I think a similar system in GW2 might not be as bad because most CP stars are a direct boost to health, magicka or stamina (or all 3), either the totals or regeneration, whereas in GW2 I think they'd be spread between more attributes which would help a bit, but you'd still need a way to keep it from causing endless power creep. Giving players a fixed number of points to use and not adding more might help with that, but it could still be a problem.

 

Also if they moved stats off of equipment and made it a direct boost I'm not sure what equipment would do any more. We already have an equivalent of ESO's item sets in the form of runes (and sigils).

 

1 hour ago, Eraden.8740 said:

I am curious. Why do you not want Toughness for PVE? I am running an Open World PVE Condi Weaver build using Dire gear and it seems to work out wonderfully for me. In Open World meta events as well.

 

I like having some toughness (or vitality) in PvE because I don't want to have to always be paying 100% attention, making sure I'm always kiting, dodging attacks at just the right time etc. I'm often distracted while playing, either by chat or by things in real life and being able to afford to let the occasional hit land is very helpful for me.

 

Also more than once I've been the last one standing after something unexpectedly hits a group and had to rally everyone else, or been the one to stay in a red circle to get someone up because no one else can risk it.

 

I know it means I won't kill things as quickly as some other people, but I'm usually not in a hurry and the extra defense is helpful. Also I like being able to take characters between open-world PvE and WvW without needing a whole new set of equipment for them.

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