How Banners should be

[Blumpf.2518]

So, with the Patch at Mai 11th Warriors Banners get changed a bit, and not to the better.

 

Anets Intention was: We dont want all Warriors playing the Discizpline traitline, so lets change banners to 5 people and reduce the bonus of the improved banners trait that the warrior gets. And we want more diversity in builds, so that playing warrior doesnt mean 2 utility slots are blocked by banners.

Unfortunately that leads to: "Raids are 10 people content, so the "banners affect 10 people" trait is absolutely needed, making the Discipline Traitline even more neccessary.

Oh and what makes that traitline so strong too is the last trait. "Bonusadrenaline on crits with Axe". Without that trait you cant spam F1 as Berserker.

 

In WvW Banners arent good cause the battles arent at fixed positions / rooms. If you run out of the banner effect, the banner is useless.

And in PvP its all about stuns, interrupts and stunbreaks. The only Good Banner there is the elite banner cause it can stomp / rezz at range.

If you drop Banners at a point youre supposed to cap you will lose the fight cause you dont have enough CC / Stunbreak.

 

So basically the only content in which Banners are relevant is PvE and that content has a max group size of 10 people in raids, aside from open world events, but since they dont require people to be in a group at all to participate, its 10 people group size.

 

Now if you change banners to effect only 5 people, the only result will be that raids will have 1 warrior in each subgroup, which is bad for raid setup diversity. The Raid setups will change to QuicknessSupporterClass + AlacritySupporterClass + Tank/HealSupporterClass + Warrior, so that most of the time 3 / 5 slots in each subgroup are blocked by thoses classes.

So, Banners on 5 people only is a bad idea.

 

And - a bit off topic - stat increasing buffs to only 5 people are a bad idea as well. If a class has a trait that increases stats, it should always affect 10 people. Warrior - Empower Allies 100 Strength. Ranger - Spotter 100 Precision. Guardian - Strength in Numbers 100 Toughness. Engineer - Pinpoint Distribution 100 Condition Damage. Revenant - Assasins Presence 100 Ferocity. All these traits should affect 10 people instead of 5.

 

But now back to warriors Banners and how they should be. First, remove all banners, except the elite skill "Battle Standard". There wont be 4 diffrent banners that block utility skills then, but only the battle standard. And its effect should be: "+100 to all stats. Affects 10 people. Revives Allies and stomps enemies on cast. Grants Fury, Might and Quickness"

Then remove the double standards trait and replace it by something that effects the Battle Standard. Maybe cooldown reduction or more Boons spread by the banner.

 

Every warrior would have 2 free utility slots then and could focus on diffrent playstyles. Berserkers could take more Rage Skills, Spellbreakers more Meditations and Core Warriors more of the regular utility skills. The Warriors playstyle would be more diverse, and would better represent the elite spec you have chosen.

And raids could be running more warriors, one for Banners and  support and the rest for DPS, so that warrior would be a good option, too as a DPS class.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Honestly not a bad suggestion...

 

Then you could have Shouts + Banner as a full support.

[Poko.7508]

This really would fix a lot with banners wow

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Blumpf.2518 said:

So, with the Patch at Mai 11th Warriors Banners get changed a bit, and not to the better.

 

Anets Intention was: We dont want all Warriors playing the Discizpline traitline, so lets change banners to 5 people and reduce the bonus of the improved banners trait that the warrior gets. And we want more diversity in builds, so that playing warrior doesnt mean 2 utility slots are blocked by banners.

Unfortunately that leads to: "Raids are 10 people content, so the "banners affect 10 people" trait is absolutely needed, making the Discipline Traitline even more neccessary.

 

 

See this is where people need to understand Anet's approach to designing the game. It's not balanced around the idea that you NEED something to do raids and that anything that doesn't have that something is worthless trash. Until you guys realize this, you will continue to not understand these changes. 

 

In this case, the assumption you NEED banners to affect 10 people in raids,  that you need banners in raids or even that things are balanced around raids to begin with is wrong. The game is NOT designed around what is meta for raids. Sure banners are great and lots of people love when you use them, but it's not the only way to play warrior class and be successful in raids or any other content ... and this change is just one of the many that should be making this truth absolutely evident to everyone. The point around how Anet designs classes isn't meta, it's around meaningful choices that allow you to play how you want. 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

Having buffs that affect 10 people across all classes actually lessens build diversity. You end up needing all classes then for maximum performance.

It is better off that some bonuses are outright merged together (i.e. instead of Banner giving +100 precision have it give the Spotter bonus , +100 precision ; instead of +100 ferocity give the Assassins Presence bonus, instead of +100 condition damage have it give pinpoint distribution) so you have the option of either or. That is how boons work for example. Warrior would still be the preferred class because you wouldn't need 4 classes but then you have options.

Banners should not have been changed to light fields , you would not use them that way and most people in PVE want to blast might. Having a prestack fire field before dropping banner is much more effective. For WVW, battle standard is the only banner you would want to run. While having the stat bonuses is nice, most of the time you would bring spellbreaker for boon rip and/or support via shouts and CC.

Right now the typical setup is:
* Quickness  x2 + Alac (Renegade most of the time) + BS (banner) + Druid (spirits)
* 10 man quickness chrono + alac + BS + Druid
* Full boon Chrono / tank chrono x2 + BS + Druid ... for example on Soulless Horror
* boon chrono + Quickness (CQB/HB) + alac + BS + Druid
* Obsolete boon thief + alac (or 2x RR) + BS + Druid for only a few raids
* Obsolete chrono timewarp stack + alac + BS + Druid

Edited May 3, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[sajah varel.9261]

I agree, they should make generic +100 buffs and give those to several classes to increase diversity. That way they could even remove several bonuses from  some banners and repurpose them for something else, like stability on hit or heals when struck etc.

[Dadnir.5038]

17 hours ago, Blumpf.2518 said:

So, with the Patch at Mai 11th Warriors Banners get changed a bit, and not to the better.

 

Anets Intention was: We dont want all Warriors playing the Discizpline traitline, so lets change banners to 5 people and reduce the bonus of the improved banners trait that the warrior gets. And we want more diversity in builds, so that playing warrior doesnt mean 2 utility slots are blocked by banners.

Unfortunately that leads to: "Raids are 10 people content, so the "banners affect 10 people" trait is absolutely needed, making the Discipline Traitline even more neccessary.

Oh and what makes that traitline so strong too is the last trait. "Bonusadrenaline on crits with Axe". Without that trait you cant spam F1 as Berserker.

 

Nope, people take discipline for the reduced CD on weapon swap (Fast hand)... There are even players out there that depend so much on this trait that they believe it should be made baseline.

 

ANet's devs either don't know what to do with the banners as they are or prepare the warrior for an e-spec with "light" thematic (which is kinda dumb since guardian exist).

 

Personally, I'd prefer if ANet were to change banners in the same way they changed scrapper's drones. Banner of Defence coud periodically grant resolution and protection, Banner of Tactic could periodically heal, Banner of Strength could deal power damage every second and Banner of Discipline could apply burn every second. Give them a 20-25s CD, 5-6 tics max and it would be just right. No change needed on the elite. Better, they would end up being wells and benefit from the runes bonus (I must say that I wouldn't mind the light field of the banner trait at this point).

[sajah varel.9261]

Fasthand isn't the only reason people play discipline, I would play disc on all my builds even if FH was baseline. They play discipline because everything you need as a warrior is there (power, condi, support, doesn't matter, you need stuff in that spec whatever your build).

 

Putting the banner trait back in tactics and fast hand in arms, now that would shift stuff. Because now if you play an elite spec you would need to pick arms + discipline or arms + strength (or forgo FH and play str/disc) for dps and you would have to put away discipline or arms if you play banners in raid (because you would need tactics). Or play pure warrior with arms/disc/tactics.

Edited May 4, 2021 by sajah varel.9261

[DKRathalos.9625]

It's not that only fast hand, it's the axe mastery for PvE. Since warrior doesn't swap weapon that much at PvE and much more sticking to Axe/Axe which is their main damage weapon. If they move the Axe mastery to Tactic/Arms, pretty sure PvE player will consider Tactic/Arms.

[Caedmon.6798]

Another great suggestion thats gonna be completely ignored.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

Another great suggestion thats gonna be completely ignored.

True ... it will be because the premise is faulty to begin with. 

[DKRathalos.9625]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

True ... it will be because the premise is faulty to begin with. 

But do you have a better suggestion though? or not?

[Kodama.6453]

This suggestion is on the same level as all the engineers suggesting that we bundle all gadgets and turrets into a gadget/turret kit respectively.

 

Bundling an entire skill category into one single skill slot is not how it should be.

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

But do you have a better suggestion though? or not?

I've always thought banners should behave like a mobile AOE centered on the warrior ... but that's neither here nor there. I mean, I have lots of suggestions, but they aren't actually relevant for the same reason no one else's are either ... Anet decides how the game is implemented because they understand their own metrics for measuring what is good and not good. We don't have that information, so you see people assume changes are 'wrong' because of various reasons they concoct. Our suggestions aren't 'ignored', they just aren't relevant because there is a difference in telling Anet how the game should work based on invented reasons vs. providing feedback on how their designs affect play when actually implemented in the game. 

 

I don't have a problem with the change itself because if you use Banners seriously, you take the trait, so what banners doesn't do when you aren't traited for it isn't really a big deal. What I think is wrong is that the trait is misplaced, especially if Anet wants to encourage use of other traitlines. 

 

 

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

On 5/4/2021 at 10:02 AM, DKRathalos.9625 said:

It's not that only fast hand, it's the axe mastery for PvE. Since warrior doesn't swap weapon that much at PvE and much more sticking to Axe/Axe which is their main damage weapon. If they move the Axe mastery to Tactic/Arms, pretty sure PvE player will consider Tactic/Arms.

Just gonna say really quick that yes you should be swapping weapons often in pve, it's one way you get more decapitates in your berserk rotation. Swapping weapons gains you adrenaline and is instant compared to another auto attack which actually decreases your dps.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Just gonna say really quick that yes you should be swapping weapons often in pve, it's one way you get more decapitates in your berserk rotation. Swapping weapons gains you adrenaline and is instant compared to another auto attack which actually decreases your dps.

Axe/Axe + Axe/Axe FTW.

[felix.2386]

20 hours ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Just gonna say really quick that yes you should be swapping weapons often in pve, it's one way you get more decapitates in your berserk rotation. Swapping weapons gains you adrenaline and is instant compared to another auto attack which actually decreases your dps.

wrong, axe mastery gives you 10 adrenaline faster then weapon swap and u need to wait 5 second to decapitate again if you weapon swap.

all i need is 4 hit with axe mastery on axe and its way less then 5 second, even more so with perma quickness/alac in party.

 

even with weapon swap you still have to fit in 2 hits with axe mastery to get 10 adrenaline.

without weapon swap you need 4 hits.

so in conclusion, you are really comparing 5 second of weapon swap to 2 axe hit, not worth.

unless you running axe/axe axe/axe.

Edited May 6, 2021 by felix.2386

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

15 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

wrong, axe mastery gives you 10 adrenaline faster then weapon swap and u need to wait 5 second to decapitate again if you weapon swap.

all i need is 4 hit with axe mastery on axe and its way less then 5 second, even more so with perma quickness/alac in party.

 

even with weapon swap you still have to fit in 2 hits with axe mastery to get 10 adrenaline.

without weapon swap you need 4 hits.

so in conclusion, you are really comparing 5 second of weapon swap to 2 axe hit, not worth.

unless you running axe/axe axe/axe.

Why would you be running anything other than the axe/___ + ___/axe when you're trying to squeeze as much DPS out as you can.

[felix.2386]

27 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Why would you be running anything other than the axe/___ + ___/axe when you're trying to squeeze as much DPS out as you can.

if you run  axe/_mace__ + _mace__/axe, and the second main hand isnt axe.

you gonna be lock out of decapitate for 5 seconds, while it only takes 4 hits for axe to gain 10 adrenaline for decapitate again. which is less then 2 second. you will be missing 1-2 decapitate for swapping to another weapon that is not another main hand axe.

Edited May 6, 2021 by felix.2386

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, felix.2386 said:

if you run  axe/_mace__ + _mace__/axe, and the second main hand isnt axe.

you gonna be lock out of decapitate for 5 seconds, while it only takes 4 hits for axe to gain 10 adrenaline for decapitate again. which is less then 2 second.

He was implying empty slots. You can put a weapon in the MH slot of set 1 and a weapon in the OH slot in set 2 and it treats you as have them in both hands in both sets. This lets you dual wield and weapon swap into the same set but only requires two weapons for it instead of 4.

[felix.2386]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

He was implying empty slots. You can put a weapon in the MH slot of set 1 and a weapon in the OH slot in set 2 and it treats you as have them in both hands in both sets. This lets you dual wield and weapon swap into the same set but only requires two weapons for it instead of 4.

 

i see, then that would make sense for squishing dps.

didnt came to my mind because the tiny bit of dps increase doesnt justify the lack of mace in raid or gs for open world for me personally.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

 

i see, then that would make sense for squishing dps.

didnt came to my mind because the tiny bit of dps increase doesnt justify the lack of mace in raid or gs for open world for me personally.

You can use Wild Blow and Headbutt to do your part on breaking bars. There isn't any real need to a CC set unless you are the sole dedicated bar breaker in a group.

[felix.2386]

9 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You can use Wild Blow and Headbutt to do your part on breaking bars. There isn't any real need to a CC set unless you are the sole dedicated bar breaker in a group.

but then you have to ditch signet of might that would be dps lose, because you cant replace banners.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

47 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

 

i see, then that would make sense for squishing dps.

didnt came to my mind because the tiny bit of dps increase doesnt justify the lack of mace in raid or gs for open world for me personally.

If the boss has a cc bar I'll typically go axe/mace + ___/axe for raids so I can still weapon swap and still get more decapitates in (and still typically have the most breakbar damage) . As for open world I'm not running axes or banners because most things die fast enough with my lazy warrior build, that's sturdy enough to solo champs.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Red Haired Savage.5430

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

35 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

but then you have to ditch signet of might that would be dps lose, because you cant replace banners.

There is a Power Berserker build for raids that doesn't take banners. You still take the trait though, because naturally there is a BS there.