Why didn't Anet follow the setup of Jormag in vanilla?

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Jormag got such rich setup in vanilla.  If you play Norn and choose specific storyline, it's all about Jormag before the Clawisland battle.

 

The novels also mentioned the Dragonspawn.

 

The maps also have a lot of quests about its conflict.

 

The first 2 episodes were ok, we got to see what happened to the spirits. Then the Sons of Svanir, the Kodan/Grawl and all the Norn plot just got tossed aside and turned into a brand new Charr story. Even if they follow the same pace in the first half of the Icebrood Saga, I doubt the story could be told well about 2 dragons and all these new things.

 

They should have followed the previous storylines and focus on Norn instead of Charr.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

24 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The first 2 episodes were ok, we got to see what happened to the spirits. Then the Sons of Svanir, the Kodan/Grawl and all the Norn plot just got tossed aside and turned into a brand new Charr story. Even if they follow the same pace in the first half of the Icebrood Saga, I doubt the story could be told well about 2 dragons and all these new things.

What exactly was tossed aside about any of these plots again?

• Braham got the Jotun fire magic enchantment, cracked the tooth, got the power of the Sprints of the Wild, (helped)kill Jormag's champion, and then fought, and (helped) kill, the dragon itself. The whole Norn story went full circle with the big Asgeir symbolism they set up all the way back in LWS3.
• Not to mention we visited many old Norn settlements in the current day(Longeye's Ledge, Jora's homestead, Sifhalla), got more information about early Norn/human diplomatic efforts(which also tied into Olafson from GW1), we learned the truth about Asgier's battle with Jormag(and even got to visit the place it happened), we got to go to the place the Spirits first revealed themselves to the Norn, and we found out what happened to the "lost" Spirits of the Wild, and got to interact with them.
• We took the "Jormag is a persuader/manipulator" plot to its logical end. Jormag manipulated Bangar, used its minions to delay us/set Bangar up for more Charr to join him, allowed Bangar to "take" its power to make an army for it. We followed Bangar, stopped him, and had our allies manipulated/shook off the dragon's attempts to persuade people, and exposed it BS so more people wouldn't fall to it.
• We got rather extensive Kodan development in both Bitterfrost in LWS3, and the 2nd half of Bjora in IBS. Lots of information about their religion, burial rites, naming conventions, and all that. And the Kodan joined up as allies to defeat Jormag in the end.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Slowpokeking.8720]

5 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

What exactly was tossed aside about any of these plots again?

• Braham got the Jotun fire magic enchantment, cracked the tooth, got the power of the Sprints of the Wild, (helped)kill Jormag's champion, and then fought, and (helped) kill, the dragon itself. The whole Norn story went full circle with the big Asgeir symbolism they set up all the way back in LWS3.
• We took the "Jormag is a persuader/manipulator" plot to its logical end. Jormag manipulated Bangar, used its minions to delay us/set Bangar up for more Charr to join him, allowed Bangar to "take" its power to make an army for it. We followed Bangar, stopped him, and had our allies manipulated/shook off the dragon's attempts to persuade people, and exposed it BS so more people wouldn't fall to it.
• We got rather extensive Kodan development in both Bitterfrost in LWS3, and the 2nd half of Bjora in IBS. Lots of information about their religion, burial rites, naming conventions, and all that. And the Kodan joined up as allies to defeat Jormag in the end.

 

Most of the Norn were nobody compare to the Charr plot. Braham was the only one who got something to do, yet all others got minor roles compare to the Charr.

 

Grawls, Jotun, Quaggan all got little plot, Kodan got pushed aside by the Charr as well.

 

Sons of Svanir got very little as the main follower/executioners of Jormag.

 

Also that Ice Column Creature in GW1 was never explained as well.

 

Most of the Far Shiverpeaks were not shown to us, we only got 2 big maps. All the old places like Drakkar's Lake and the huge Ice Glaciers created by Jormag was nowhere to be seen.

 

We got a very rushed ending which was far from satisfying.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

21 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Most of the Norn were nobody compare to the Charr plot. Braham was the only one who got something to do, yet all others got minor roles compare to the Charr.

Well yes. Norn culture is all about the individual hunter proving themselves, and gaining their legend by doing so. The Norn previously had even said they were going to let Braham take care of it because that is his legend. The whole point is that Norn are individualistic, to the point of lacking any real society. What you just said amounts to "they made a Norn plot a Norn plot"

 

21 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Grawls, Jotun, Quaggan all got little plot, Kodan got pushed aside by the Charr as well.

• All Jotun ruins we have seen are in the Northern and Southern Shiverpeaks. Why would they get plot in a region they didn't live in?
• Same thing with the Grawl. The Grawl are native to Ascalon, and the southern Shiverpeaks, and never had a presence in the northern or Far Shiverpeaks back in GW1. Even in Gw2 they only started moving into that region recently due to being pushed out by the Charr. They never had a big stake in the Jormag/Primordus conflict.
• The Quaggan you could at least reasonably argue, but then again they are Quaggan. Even if the Charr thing never happened we would have gotten the same thing we got in Bitterfrost. A small Quaggan village needing protection from the Ice dragon's forces because Quaggan are Quaggan, and not very good at combat.
• As for the Kodan, what do you really think Anet would have done with them besides what they did? Really... because I truly wonder what you expected out of Kodan stuff beyond what we got.

21 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Sons of Svanir got very little as the main follower/executioners of Jormag.

The Svanir are not the main followers/executions of Jormag, the Icebrood are. The Svanir are just a cult that follows the dragon, not the dragon's main minions. Also, the Svanir were the direct instigators of the events of the first episode, are all over Bjora Marches doing various things in events, and episode 1 ends with us fighting and killing the closest thing the Svanir have to a leader, the Fraenir. Bjora is like Svanir central.

21 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Also that Ice Column Creature in GW1 was never explained as well.

We see the Svanir making similar statues all across Guild wars 2, from vanilla to IBS. Most likely it was just a really old Jormag totem from ages past.

21 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Most of the Far Shiverpeaks were not shown to us, we only got 2 big maps. All the old places like Drakkar's Lake and the huge Ice Glaciers created by Jormag was nowhere to be seen.

Well this is just wrong. We literally fight Drakker in Drakker lake in the story mission, and the entire western edge of Bjora Marches is a giant ice glacier created by Jormag, blocking our ability to go further westward.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Slowpokeking.8720]

56 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Quote

Well yes. Norn culture is all about the individual hunter proving themselves, and gaining their legend by doing so. The Norn previously had even said they were going to let Braham take care of it because that is his legend. The whole point is that Norn are individualistic, to the point of lacking any real society. What you just said amounts to "they made a Norn plot a Norn plot"

 

Not true, they fought together to run away from Jormag, even had to rely on the spirits. Even the Nornbear was put down by teamwork. As well as the Dragonspawn, Claw of Jormag etc.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

• All Jotun ruins we have seen are in the Northern and Southern Shiverpeaks. Why would they get plot in a region they didn't live in?

 

Wrong, they have presence in the Far Shiverpeaks in GW1.  It was actually their debut. Did you even play GW1? They are all over Far Shiverpeaks.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

• Same thing with the Grawl. The Grawl are native to Ascalon, and the southern Shiverpeaks, and never had a presence in the northern or Far Shiverpeaks back in GW1. Even in Gw2 they only started moving into that region recently due to being pushed out by the Charr. They never had a big stake in the Jormag/Primordus conflict.

 

Wrong, they did have Jormag problem in the racial story did you even play it?

 

56 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

• The Quaggan you could at least reasonably argue, but then again they are Quaggan. Even if the Charr thing never happened we would have gotten the same thing we got in Bitterfrost. A small Quaggan village needing protection from the Ice dragon's forces because Quaggan are Quaggan, and not very good at combat.

They have fought Jormag, play the story.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

• As for the Kodan, what do you really think Anet would have done with them besides what they did? Really... because I truly wonder what you expected out of Kodan stuff beyond what we got.

They should the 2nd most important part in the war against Jormag, not the chars.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Svanir are not the main followers/executions of Jormag, the Icebrood are. The Svanir are just a cult that follows the dragon, not the dragon's main minions. Also, the Svanir were the direct instigators of the events of the first episode, are all over Bjora Marches doing various things in events, and episode 1 ends with us fighting and killing the closest thing the Svanir have to a leader, the Fraenir. Bjora is like Svanir central.

 

Wrong again.

 

The Nornbear was Jormag's first important champion since the cycle, the Sons of Svanir were important power source of Jormag's awakening.

 

Also all the high rank SoS are Icebrood. A large number of the Icebrood champions are SoS members before the saga. Other than Drakkar/Claw of Jormag and other dragon like beings, the SoS are obviously in the leading chain of the Icebrood.

 

That was way too little compare to their plot.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

We see the Svanir making similar statues all across Guild wars 2, from vanilla to IBS. Most likely it was just a really old Jormag totem from ages past.

No, SoS made dragon totem, that thing was not similar at all. And it resemble Drakkar much more than Jormag.

 

56 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well this is just wrong. We literally fight Drakker in Drakker lake in the story mission, and the entire western edge of Bjora Marches is a giant ice glacier created by Jormag, blocking our ability to go further westward.

 

No, Drakkar Lake was far from Bjora Marches. That was just lazy writing to prevent us from going all the way past.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

I can't believe someone is openly denying Sons of Svanir's importance in vanilla.

 

Other than the dragonlike champions, the most common seen Jormag champions are SoS members, most of the important action the Icebrood took were leaded by SoS members. They even have opened portal to invade the mist.

 

  Just since Icebrood Saga the Frost Legion has replaced their duty.

[Zola.6197]

Frankly Jormag wasn’t interesting in vanilla, imo. Jormag only became super compelling through the Icebrood Saga, so it’s a genuine shame we’ve lost them as a character so unceremoniously. They’re the only elder dragon I’ve found truly compelling. I’m very disappointed all the great set up of Jormag as a persuasive manipulator amounted to nothing.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Not true, they fought together to run away from Jormag, even had to rely on the spirits. Even the Nornbear was put down by teamwork. As well as the Dragonspawn, Claw of Jormag etc.

No,  the Spirits of the Wild(Eagle, Wolverine, Owl, and Ox) worked together to hold back Jormag while the Norn fled. Originally, before we learned the turn about the Norn's exodus, we were told that the Spirits told the Norn to go south because they were driving themselves to extinction trying to fight Jormag one at a time, instead of working together. Because that is how Norn are.

 

The Nornbear was put down by Jora, who was expected to do it herself. The Dragonspawn wasn't killed by the Norn. And the Claw of Jormag was also not killed by the Norn, but by the Pact.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Wrong, they have presence in the Far Shiverpeaks in GW1.  It was actually their debut. Did you even play GW1? They are all over Far Shiverpeaks.

And that was retconed in Guild Wars 2 to having them being of the Northern and Southern Shiverpeaks. Even back in GW1 there were no Jotun ruins in the Far Shiverpeaks. And all Jotun ruins in GW2 are in the lower Shiverpeaks.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Wrong, they did have Jormag problem in the racial story did you even play it?

Also untrue. That one tribe of grawl got attacked by the Icebrood, and we helped evacuate that one tribe. The Grawl, as a species, had no greater part in the Jormag conflict.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They have fought Jormag, play the story.

I never said they didn't. I said they aren't good at it. Like in Bitterfront Frotnier its the Kodan doing all the actual fighting, the Quaggan just provide support roles becuase that is all they are really good for.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They should the 2nd most important part in the war against Jormag, not the chars.

No they shouldn't. The Kodan, as a species are less powerful militarily then any of the five races. In terms of importance in the war against any Elder Dragon it should be the Pact > The five major races > other organizations like the Crystal Bloom, and Sunspears > minor races like the Kodan, Quaggan, centaurs, etc.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The Nornbear was Jormag's first important champion since the cycle, the Sons of Svanir were important power source of Jormag's awakening.

Wrong again. Drakkar has been Jormag's champion since the last cycle, and was the thing that corrupted Svanir into the Nornbear.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Also all the high rank SoS are Icebrood. A large number of the Icebrood champions are SoS members before the saga. Other than Drakkar/Claw of Jormag and other dragon like beings, the SoS are obviously in the leading chain of the Icebrood.

This is also untrue. the highest ranking Son of Svanir is the Franir, who isn't an icebrood. Other prominent Sons of Svanir such as Aldus Stormbringer, Andal the Thug, Bors of the Ice Gavel, Fimbul, among others are not Icebrood either. In fact, the opposite of what you suggest is true in that the Icebrood are often leading forces of the Svanir, not the other way around. The Svanir are below the Icebrood in terms of Jormag's power structure.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, SoS made dragon totem, that thing was not similar at all. And it resemble Drakkar much more than Jormag.

Its literally a frozen serpent wrapped around a spire, the exact same way the Svanir totems are.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, Drakkar Lake was far from Bjora Marches. That was just lazy writing to prevent us from going all the way past.

Also incorrect.

As That_Shaman's map shows, the story instance area we fight Drakkar in at the end of episode 2(which is just to the southwest edge of the map) is literally right over where Drakkar lake was in GW1. The whole thing being frozen over by Jormag's giant glacier. Its quite demosntrably exactly where it should be based on GW1.

https://i.imgur.com/r9HcWAV.png

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

28 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

Frankly Jormag wasn’t interesting in vanilla, imo. Jormag only became super compelling through the Icebrood Saga, so it’s a genuine shame we’ve lost them as a character so unceremoniously. They’re the only elder dragon I’ve found truly compelling. I’m very disappointed all the great set up of Jormag as a persuasive manipulator amounted to nothing.

I don't get why people say it amounted to nothing. Jormag's persuasions/manipulations literally drove the entire first part of the IBS plot, and gave it the army it needed for the 2nd half of the plot. Literally nothing would have happened as it did, all the way to the end, without Jormag's ability to manipulate.

 

Thats the exact opposite of amounting to nothing.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Zola.6197]

We get it, Sajuuk, you like lackluster storytelling.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

4 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I don't get why people say it amounted to nothing. Jormag's persuasions/manipulations literally drove the entire first part of the IBS plot, and gave it the army it needed for the 2nd half of the plot. Literally nothing would have happened as it did, all the way to the end, without Jormag's ability to manipulate.

 

Thats the exact opposite of amounting to nothing.

It amounted to a 15 minute three way fight with rather contrived justifications and a 5 second cinematic where Jormag and Primordus killed each other with a kiss of death.  Maybe that wasn't nothing but I'm not sure I'd call it something either.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

37 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

No,  the Spirits of the Wild(Eagle, Wolverine, Owl, and Ox) worked together to hold back Jormag while the Norn fled. Originally, before we learned the turn about the Norn's exodus, we were told that the Spirits told the Norn to go south because they were driving themselves to extinction trying to fight Jormag one at a time, instead of working together. Because that is how Norn are.

No, the Norn united together to fight Jormag to run off.

 

Quote

It wasn't my hand that dealt the killing blow. It was the hands of a thousand fallen norn who inspired and guided me. I did it for them, and for those who still remain.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

The Nornbear was put down by Jora, who was expected to do it herself. The Dragonspawn wasn't killed by the Norn. And the Claw of Jormag was also not killed by the Norn, but by the Pact.

 

No, The Nornbear was tracked down and slain with group work, Jora was one of them.

 

No the Dragonspawn was killed by Eir and her group. Before that many ppl tried to kill it. Did you even read the book?

 

And the Pact got Norn members.

 

 

Quote

And that was retconed in Guild Wars 2 to having them being of the Northern and Southern Shiverpeaks. Even back in GW1 there were no Jotun ruins in the Far Shiverpeaks. And all Jotun ruins in GW2 are in the lower Shiverpeaks.

 

 

No, never said they were not in the Far Shiverpeaks, obviously you didn't play GW1 otherwise you would not bring it at all. The Jotuns firstly show up there.

 

Quote

Also untrue. That one tribe of grawl got attacked by the Icebrood, and we helped evacuate that one tribe. The Grawl, as a species, had no greater part in the Jormag conflict.

And they were a big part of the plot with a chain of quests, unlike the Charr who got little to do with Jormag.

 

 

 

Quote

I never said they didn't. I said they aren't good at it. Like in Bitterfront Frotnier its the Kodan doing all the actual fighting, the Quaggan just provide support roles becuase that is all they are really good for.

They are good at it playing support roles. They got much more to do with Jormag than Charr.

 

 

Quote

No they shouldn't. The Kodan, as a species are less powerful militarily then any of the five races. In terms of importance in the war against any Elder Dragon it should be the Pact > The five major races > other organizations like the Crystal Bloom, and Sunspears > minor races like the Kodan, Quaggan, centaurs, etc.

Doesn't matter, they are part of the Jormag story, it should be about Norn centered plus others who got something to do with Jormag.  Not Charrs, who got much less to do with it.

 

 

Quote

Wrong again. Drakkar has been Jormag's champion since the last cycle, and was the thing that corrupted Svanir into the Nornbear.

Drakkar was Jormag's champion BEFORE the cycle, this cycle starts with Nornbear.

 

 

 

Quote

This is also untrue. the highest ranking Son of Svanir is the Franir, who isn't an icebrood. Other prominent Sons of Svanir such as Aldus Stormbringer, Andal the Thug, Bors of the Ice Gavel, Fimbul, among others are not Icebrood either. In fact, the opposite of what you suggest is true in that the Icebrood are often leading forces of the Svanir, not the other way around. The Svanir are below the Icebrood in terms of Jormag's power structure.

Seriously did you even play the game?

 

The Franir clearly is Icebrood

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/6/67/Fraenir_of_Jormag.jpg/520px-Fraenir_of_Jormag.jpg

 

 

Aldus and quite a few others are obviously Icebrood

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/d/d5/Svanir_Shaman_Chief.jpg/316px-Svanir_Shaman_Chief.jpg

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/9/92/Kodan's_Bane%2C_Huntsman_of_Jormag.jpg/314px-Kodan's_Bane%2C_Huntsman_of_Jormag.jpg

 

Even things like Andal who was not Icebrood himself has been seen commanding Icebrood Quaggan.

 

Tons of attacks like the early Norn quests, the 3 shamans who cast Icestorm and Honor of the Waves was leading by SoS members.

 

Quote

Its literally a frozen serpent wrapped around a spire, the exact same way the Svanir totems are.

 

No, the shape is entirely different and it was obviously a creature inside. All the Svanir Totems looks the same.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

We get it, Sajuuk, you like lackluster storytelling.

I dislike lackluster storytelling.  Which is exactly why I am against most of these incredibly lackluster ideas that don't make much sense at all.

 

>WHY AREN'T THE KOAN SUPER SPECIAL!

Because they logically aren't based on the entire setting of the game.

>BUT MAKE EM SO!

But that doesn't make sense and just comes off as bad fan fiction trying to push your favorite race into an unbelievable status that they wouldn't be in given the situation.

>U JUST LIKE LACKLUSTER STORYTELLING!

What?

 

5 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

It amounted to a 15 minute three way fight with rather contrived justifications and a 5 second cinematic where Jormag and Primordus killed each other with a kiss of death.  Maybe that wasn't nothing but I'm not sure I'd call it something either.

Well yes. The whole point of a manipulator/persuader villain character is to overcome their manipulation/persuasion abilities, and negate them so they can't use them against you anymore, by exposing how much of a liar they are. Which is what we did.

 

Jormag manipulated Bangar into everything from Bound by Blood, to Jormag Rising, and used our allies loved ones(dead or alive) in an attempt to psychologically scar them, or turn them to its side, as well as trying to get us to put down our weapons with offers of peace, and claims that its minions(like Drakkar) aren't hurting people. Despite initial doubt by the Commander, and moments of weakness by characters like Marj, Rytlock, Cre,  Braham, and Aurene, we were able to push through its attempts to stop us(like it stopped Asgeir long ago), and used our direct observations to prove its BSery. In turn breaking its ability to use such tactics against us, so when it came to the final battle it couldn't be used against us.

 

What did you think would happen? Jormag would make some plea that its really actually a good dragon, and really didn't mean to hurt anyone, and our characters would just forget what happened at Jora's Keep, and with Drakkar, and the Dominion/Frost Legion, and Lake Doric, Bloodtide Coast, and Caeledon Forest, and we/Aurene would fall for it and help it come out on top of Primordus?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, the Norn united together to fight Jormag to run off.

Did you...actually read what you quoted there? Asgier was speaking METAPHORICALLY. He was carrying the hopes of all Norn in his fight against Jormag, they weren't actually THERE. 🤦‍♂️

[The Greyhawk.9107]

4 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I dislike lackluster storytelling.  Which is exactly why I am against most of these incredibly lackluster ideas that don't make much sense at all.

 

>WHY AREN'T THE KOAN SUPER SPECIAL!

Because they logically aren't based on the entire setting of the game.

>BUT MAKE EM SO!

But that doesn't make sense and just comes off as bad fan fiction trying to push your favorite race into an unbelievable status that they wouldn't be in given the situation.

>U JUST LIKE LACKLUSTER STORYTELLING!

What?

 

Well yes. The whole point of a manipulator/persuader villain character is to overcome their manipulation/persuasion abilities, and negate them so they can't use them against you anymore, by exposing how much of a liar they are. Which is what we did.

 

Jormag manipulated Bangar into everything from Bound by Blood, to Jormag Rising, and used our allies loved ones(dead or alive) in an attempt to psychologically scar them, or turn them to its side, as well as trying to get us to put down our weapons with offers of peace, and claims that its minions(like Drakkar) aren't hurting people. Despite initial doubt by the Commander, and moments of weakness by characters like Marj, Rytlock, Cre,  Braham, and Aurene, we were able to push through its attempts to stop us(like it stopped Asgeir long ago), and used our direct observations to prove its BSery. In turn breaking its ability to use such tactics against us, so when it came to the final battle it couldn't be used against us.

 

What did you think would happen? Jormag would make some plea that its really actually a good dragon, and really didn't mean to hurt anyone, and our characters would just forget what happened at Jora's Keep, and with Drakkar, and the Dominion/Frost Legion, and Lake Doric, Bloodtide Coast, and Caeledon Forest, and we/Aurene would fall for it and help it come out on top of Primordus?

No.  What makes you think anyone of us, except for Hypnowulf, would want something like that?  That's the problem a lot of us have with you, you keep strawmanning us.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

5 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Did you...actually read what you quoted there? Asgier was speaking METAPHORICALLY. He was carrying the hopes of all Norn in his fight against Jormag, they weren't actually THERE. 🤦‍♂️

They were when fighting Jormag.

 

The book also said clear about the battle, it was large scale war which torn apart the entire town of Norn. There is no way the fight would be one on one. Bad try here.

"We fought Jormag—gladly we fought it, for norn are made for battle. But never had we fought a beast like this. It was a living blizzard. It and its minions froze us where we fought and buried our lands in snow and ice and tore apart Gunnar's Hold with a massive glacier. It took our lands. It drove us south.

"And despite the destruction, there are still foolish norn who hear the call of Svanir and seek the power of Jormag. In the end they are reduced to icebrood themselves, flesh wrapped in ice, fed by malevolence and hatred."

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

No.  What makes you think anyone of us, except for Hypnowulf, would want something like that?  That's the problem a lot of us have with you, you keep strawmanning us.

Because that is basically what you have been vaguely arguing for.

 

This is the problem with most of your comments. You claim to dislike what we got, and say you want something else, but then never actually give any sort of detail about what you want, and force people to try to guess what you wanted, and then retreat behind STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN! every time anyone points out what is wrong with any of these ideas.

 

You just place the burden of debate entirely on others, and play a game of constant retreatism. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Also we've seen Sons of Svanir members could turn others into Icebrood in short time(Honor of Waves) even summon Icestorm(The shamans) and open portals. Which only a few high rank champions like the Dragonspawn and Drakkar could do.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They were when fighting Jormag.

 

The book also said clear about the battle, it was large scale war which torn apart the entire town of Norn. There is no way the fight would be one on one. Bad try here.

"We fought Jormag—gladly we fought it, for norn are made for battle. But never had we fought a beast like this. It was a living blizzard. It and its minions froze us where we fought and buried our lands in snow and ice and tore apart Gunnar's Hold with a massive glacier. It took our lands. It drove us south.

"And despite the destruction, there are still foolish norn who hear the call of Svanir and seek the power of Jormag. In the end they are reduced to icebrood themselves, flesh wrapped in ice, fed by malevolence and hatred."

 

Wrong again. Asgeir went to fight Jormag with a small hunting party who all died and it was he alone who fought the dragon directly.

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: Long ago when Jormag first woke. Drove the norn and the kodan from our ancestral home.

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: We rallied around the great hunter Asgeir, praying for the Spirits of the Wild to give us aid.

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: My grandmother was there the day Asgeir and his hunting party left to face the dragon. It was cold—even for a norn.

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: Only Asgeir returned, many weeks later, dragging one of Jormag's teeth from behind his dolyaks.

Relief Crew Scout: What happened to the others?

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: Asgeir wouldn't speak of it. But he and the surviving spirits led us further south. To Hoelbrak.

 

Which is backed up by what Asgeir said himself in his journal.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Burden

 

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 minute ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Wrong again. Asgeir went to fight Jormag with a small hunting party who all died and it was he alone who fought the dragon directly.

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: Long ago when Jormag first woke. Drove the norn and the kodan from our ancestral home.

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: We rallied around the great hunter Asgeir, praying for the Spirits of the Wild to give us aid.

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: My grandmother was there the day Asgeir and his hunting party left to face the dragon. It was cold—even for a norn.

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: Only Asgeir returned, many weeks later, dragging one of Jormag's teeth from behind his dolyaks.

Relief Crew Scout: What happened to the others?

Veteran Relief Crew Scout: Asgeir wouldn't speak of it. But he and the surviving spirits led us further south. To Hoelbrak.

 

Which is backed up by what Asgeir said himself in his journal.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Burden

 

 

Wrong again, did you even read what you quote?

 

Here, Jormag already cast a huge storm to tear apart the Norn hometown and caused them to go South. The full scale war already happened before Asgeir went to fight it. You think Jormag would stay there to wait for 1,000 norn to challenge it 1 by 1, or they would wait like idiots, just 1 person to go fight it when it cast huge storm on their home?

 

Eir's quote also proved that they've had a massive war before they were beaten.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 minute ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Wrong again, did you even read what you quote?

 

Here, Jormag already cast a huge storm to tear apart the Norn hometown and caused them to go South. The full scale war already happened before Asgeir went to fight it. You think Jormag would stay there to wait for 1,000 norn to challenge it 1 by 1, or they would wait like idiots, just 1 person to go fight it when it cast huge storm on their home?

 

Eir's quote also proved that they've had a massive war before they were beaten.

Yes I did, and they specifically mention Asgier went with a hunting party(a group of around 5 or so Norn) to fight Jormag, using the power of the Spirits of the Wild to aid them.

 

The "war" was a war against the Icebrood, and it was exactly like how the Norn "warred" against the destroyers in EoTN, or how the Norn "warred" against the Mordrem in GW2. Aka, they all went off alone/in small groups of five or so, and fought individually.

 

They even go over this fact in both GW1, and in GW2. The Norn do not have armies, they do not fight together as a people. At most, they make small hunting parties, but usually just fight alone trying to prove themselves/make their legend.

 

Did you miss all of Norn lore from EoTN until now?

 

[Zola.6197]

40 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

No.  What makes you think anyone of us, except for Hypnowulf, would want something like that?  That's the problem a lot of us have with you, you keep strawmanning us.

There's no point engaging. I don't even think Sajuuk has opinions, they just like to be contrarian. And apparently demand to see our Icebrood Saga fan fics, since we're not allowed to be dissatisfied unless we rewrite the story ourselves in vain.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

12 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

There's no point engaging. I don't even think Sajuuk has opinions, they just like to be contrarian. And apparently demand to see our Icebrood Saga fan fics, since we're not allowed to be dissatisfied unless we rewrite the story ourselves in vain.

Which is unfortunate, I'd otherwise be willing to give my actual reasons for why I disliked the Irritable Bowel Saga, but I've seen Sajuuk's arguments with others often enough to agree with your sentiments.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

50 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

There's no point engaging. I don't even think Sajuuk has opinions, they just like to be contrarian. And apparently demand to see our Icebrood Saga fan fics, since we're not allowed to be dissatisfied unless we rewrite the story ourselves in vain.

There is nothing wrong with being dissatisfied with it. Hell, even I found the ending to be mediocre at best.

 

That being said, there is a difference between dissatisfaction, and saying they either didn't do things that they did(Asuran and Dwarven storylines) or that they should have done something that quite demonstrably doesn't make sense in the setting(Kodan being some giant force in a war against Jromag)

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Yes I did, and they specifically mention Asgier went with a hunting party(a group of around 5 or so Norn) to fight Jormag, using the power of the Spirits of the Wild to aid them.

 

The "war" was a war against the Icebrood, and it was exactly like how the Norn "warred" against the destroyers in EoTN, or how the Norn "warred" against the Mordrem in GW2. Aka, they all went off alone/in small groups of five or so, and fought individually.

 

They even go over this fact in both GW1, and in GW2. The Norn do not have armies, they do not fight together as a people. At most, they make small hunting parties, but usually just fight alone trying to prove themselves/make their legend.

 

Did you miss all of Norn lore from EoTN until now?

 

And that was already after the war.

 

No,  the Mordrem didn't massively invade Norn homeland other than a few tries. The Destroyers as well, they just had to close the gate and later they did send their forces in the Destroyer Depth mission.

 

Jormag obviously was not staying there to wait for them come by 1-5, which would take like 200-1000 groups, does it make sense?

 

It just cast a huge storm to tear apart their home, are you saying they just come 1 by 1, when the rest just do nothing, stay there in the freezing storm and die?