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Isnt the Commander one of the, if not THE strongest Mortal on Mainland Tyria now?


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Hi.

 

Being the single (known) Dragon Champion left thats is. If we dont count Caithe.

 

While im a sucker for a good power fantasy, it feels a bit wierd to know that we + Aurene and the Crystal Bloom could easily be seen as the most powerfull "faction" in Tyria by the common folk.

 

What could even stop us now? Other then maybe the Pact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well... in short, lots of people.

 

Don't get me wrong, the Commander is a powerful veteran infused with the powers of a dragon champion, but the scale of his powers would mark him as a minor dragon champion at best. In no small part because the Dragon Slayer mastery utterly failed to deliver on any kind of power fantasy, but moving on.

 

The Crystal Bloom is relatively recent, and we have little to suggest that they are anywhere as powerful as the Pact. Neither Caithe nor the Commander can stand alone at the top of the mortal food chain, as we do have a few mortals of considerable power who could stand against them. Jennah, Livia and the ever-mysterious Isgarren are likely more powerful than the Commander, based on their magical feats alone; that being said, due to dragons being a thing, Anet has been quite reluctant to show off powerful mortals capable of rivalling dragon champions, so the list of powerful mortals is bound to remain quite short. Tl;dr the Crystal Bloom is a nascent organization and Caithe and the Commander, although powerful, are not the apex of mortal power. The Commander could use blasts of ley energy in Bloodstone Fen, before Aurene could make champions, so the growth in terms of power has been meager at best.

 

But the real problem in terms of power-scaling is Aurene. We simply have no idea how powerful she is, and the writing on her has been very inconsistent. We know she can make powerful energy blasts and see into the future, as well as tap into leylines and... I think she could follow Kralk through tears in the Mists? But given her lack of space manipulation since then, this seems iffy at best. There is also some lack of clarity about how resilient she is, given she survived a Kralk blast to the fact. Her powers are just so very ill-defined that she's basically the dragon ex machina. She'll be as powerful as the story needs her to be. 

 

Now, if you're talking political power, the discussion veers again into unknown territories, because it's hard to appreciate how receptive some regimes would be to Aurene, and whether the Pact would be willing to accept the Crystal Bloom taking ascendancy. There are personal ties at the leadership level, but the Pact has been shaped by dragon-slaying, and bound to be wary of these new dragon champions at first. If Aurene were to manage to assuage everyone's concerns, she might come to occupy the same place Glint had with her followers at the end of the GW1 vanilla questline: a prophet of a hallowed status, who has the ears of sovereigns, but without being a sovereign herself. 

 

... anyway, it's hard to say anything with any degree of certainty. The lore's all over the place and the storytelling has reached levels of inconsistency so terrifying that lore is becoming an abstract concept and everyone's headcanon is probably better.

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Queen Jennah seems pretty OP to me.

 

Jokes aside, I'd love a Canthan commander being the next antagonist. Someone who also has a backstory of climbing up in reputation, until he or she is faced with you, the player, for whatever reason.

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9 minutes ago, Dracyon Imperius.6309 said:

Neither Caithe nor the Commander can stand alone at the top of the mortal food chain, as we do have a few mortals of considerable power who could stand against them. Jennah, Livia and the ever-mysterious Isgarren are likely more powerful than the Commander, based on their magical feats alone;

I'd question this, actually. There are certainly individuals that can do things the Commander (even a PC of the same profession) can't. But if we look at Jennah and Livia, who we've actually seen in combat... WOULD they actually beat the Commander in a one-on-one? In the instances where they've appeared, the Commander is usually outputting quite a bit more damage than they are. A possible exception is Jennah's "I'm going to kill three mooks and intimidate the fourth" routine in S3E4, but they might have been mobs that the Commander WOULD have made short work of if they'd been able to act despite the trap.

 

They've got some impressive magical feats under their belt, but the Commander seems to have focused more on practical battle magic (or technology, or martial techniques).

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Braham survived us. 🤣

The Commander seems to be favored by cosmic forces, elder dragons, and divine entities while trying to get things done. We're an excellent conduit. Many times in the story when actually confronting things 1 on 1 we do tend to get our kitten kicked though. We've nearly died twice now. The first time we really did. Grenth did us a solid.

But yeah outside of non-canon fooling around with dragon corruption infusions and such it's safe to say you the PC are probably one of the most powerful examples of your profession and one of the strongest mortals on Tyria. You share that circle with people like Braham, Rytlock, and Caithe but you're pretty high up there and the sole dragon champion of Aurene.

You're a very special lad and dear to Aurene. You're able to help her deal with magical fallout if the last story was any indication which is really unprecedented. Everyone else that's done that tends to go nuts. And we just killed two elder dragons with the balance already screwed up.

 

Maybe we'll go nuts. 🤪

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The problem here is whether we believe the ingame showings match the lore. Jennah is not a battle mage, so while I believe she is leagues more powerful than the Commander, I believe they could probably beat her. But Livia? Livia has over two centuries of battle experience and could create bone hands powerful enough to drag down Orrian battleships. I'm not entirely sure the Commander could take her if she weren't hiding her strength as a base Shining Blade member.

 

Even if we accept that the Commander could beat Livia and Jennah based on ingame scenarios, that does mean that the Commander would fall short of every single raid boss (including Sabetha, aka "canon lady"), most open world champions and absolutely all world bosses. Taidha Covington very much included.

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Well ... the commander killed dragons and gods and stuff. Of course he is the strongest. And tons of those commanders are running around doing world bosses.

 

It is just something that "technically" is hard to avoid in MMORPGs ... where people want to get stronger and do epic stuff. (Afaik they even killed Trahearne because they didn't want him to be more important as the commander - as pact marshal.)

 

And the world bosses being strong and needing lots of commanders while 1 already killed a much stronger boss in the story ... well it is needed otherwise you could not create any group content lol.

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As far as being a champion a thought occurred to me just now, having Braham and Ryland outlive their respective elder dragons sets up an important precedent:

"Should we as commander ever be unlinked from Aurene through what ever means, it does not spell instant death for us."

 

That or risk having inconsistencies in the future had Braham and Ryland perished.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

As far as being a champion a thought occurred to me just now, having Braham and Ryland outlive their respective elder dragons sets up an important precedent:

"Should we as commander ever be unlinked from Aurene through what ever means, it does not spell instant death for us."

 

That or risk having inconsistencies in the future had Braham and Ryland perished.

Personally I'm still unconvinced that the Commander's link to Aurene is of the same nature as Ryland's or Braham's or any other dragon champion/lieutenant (actually, considering the Spirit's being in the mix in Braham's case its almost certainly not the same as the Commander's).

Edited by The Greyhawk.9107
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Personally I'm still unconvinced that the Commander's link to Aurene is of the same nature as Ryland's or Braham's or any other dragon champion/lieutenant (actually, considering the Spirit's being in the mix in Braham's case its almost certainly not the same as the Commander's).

True, and that might also be a possible angle to explain things, if the narrative team delves this deep.

 

After all there are some significant differences in each dragon and their champion. In Aurene and the player characters case, this goes as far as a bond established even before she was born and then later during her infancy.

 

After all the upcoming expansion is called End of Dragons, chances are high our bond with Aurene will take a step back in the narrative focus if not be dissolved entirely.

 

As to how powerful we, aka the commander, are, that is very difficult to judge without power rankings. In some cases the commander goes toe to toe with Elder Dragons, in the next he is off pummeling bandits and bloodstone empowered ministers. I'm personally taking a Dragon Ball esque approach to the story telling here where the main characters power level is fluctuating heavily to keep the story interesting.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

As far as being a champion a thought occurred to me just now, having Braham and Ryland outlive their respective elder dragons sets up an important precedent:

"Should we as commander ever be unlinked from Aurene through what ever means, it does not spell instant death for us."

 

That or risk having inconsistencies in the future had Braham and Ryland perished.

Why would Champions die with their dragon? This is not a new concept in this game. Tequatl got stronger after Zhaitan's death, the Pale Tree started recovering after Mordremoth was defeated. The lives of EDs and their champions have never been linked directly and we have several examples of that. 

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power scale is never fully elaborated in the game, to avoid dragonball-z effect..

 

not only commander, but our allies have too much powerful stuff. why bother with anything, while u have a friend with nothing more less than sohotin, a top asura scientist able to build over-gunned golems, we are already friend of jennan, and some powerful political buddies, the pact itself, the list goes on.

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How would you present this power in the format they have though? I mean, you'd think they would be considering the deeds we've been a part of and the fact that we have this "bond" with Aurene. But as far as gameplay and how it's been presented in the story it feels like our biggest power is political. In terms of our individual unassisted power level and the skill we have of our specific profession, I feel like that's not really something that's been elaborated on much. I mean, if you're playing as a mesmer, how can you compare your proficiency as a mesmer to that of Jenna that can shield a whole city and instantly mind flay three people with the point of a finger?

Or if you're playing a necro, how can you compare what you're able to do versus Majory creating bridges of bone?

In terms of Dragon's Watch, I don't feel that any of them are particularly "powerful" or overly skilled at what they do. Taimi is just highly intelligent. Canach is intelligent and cunning. But sheer power I feel like we haven't really seen. 

Kas is pretty good at creating illusions as we've seen her create powerful enough illusions for us to pose as Joko's lieutenants. We've seen her create swarms of dragon minion illusions for the tour at Grothmar. 

Braham created a shield bubble that stopped a gate from crashing in on the crew at The First City, but outside of that hasn't really displayed anything incredible.

I feel like we really need to get some elementalist representation in Dragon's Watch in Cantha though. Feels like all we've seen so far have been necros, guardians, thieves, mesmers, and rangers. 



 

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48 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

How would you present this power in the format they have though? I mean, you'd think they would be considering the deeds we've been a part of and the fact that we have this "bond" with Aurene. But as far as gameplay and how it's been presented in the story it feels like our biggest power is political. In terms of our individual unassisted power level and the skill we have of our specific profession, I feel like that's not really something that's been elaborated on much. I mean, if you're playing as a mesmer, how can you compare your proficiency as a mesmer to that of Jenna that can shield a whole city and instantly mind flay three people with the point of a finger?

Or if you're playing a necro, how can you compare what you're able to do versus Majory creating bridges of bone?

In terms of Dragon's Watch, I don't feel that any of them are particularly "powerful" or overly skilled at what they do. Taimi is just highly intelligent. Canach is intelligent and cunning. But sheer power I feel like we haven't really seen. 

Kas is pretty good at creating illusions as we've seen her create powerful enough illusions for us to pose as Joko's lieutenants. We've seen her create swarms of dragon minion illusions for the tour at Grothmar. 

Braham created a shield bubble that stopped a gate from crashing in on the crew at The First City, but outside of that hasn't really displayed anything incredible.

I feel like we really need to get some elementalist representation in Dragon's Watch in Cantha though. Feels like all we've seen so far have been necros, guardians, thieves, mesmers, and rangers. 

You're right, aside from Effram we haven't seen an elementalist character since Zojja and Sieran, and none of the above showed themselves to be uniquely powerful as eles.

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2 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

You're right, aside from Effram we haven't seen an elementalist character since Zojja and Sieran, and none of the above showed themselves to be uniquely powerful as eles.


Oh yeah, I forgot about Effram.

I mean, non-friendly characters I guess there's Modinir or whatever the centaur dude is. He seems pretty reasonably powerful.

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On 5/5/2021 at 10:29 PM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

You're right, aside from Effram we haven't seen an elementalist character since Zojja and Sieran, and none of the above showed themselves to be uniquely powerful as eles.

Crecia is an ele as well, or at least we see her using elemental magic a few times through Icebrood saga.

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Posted (edited)

Realistically, the Commander's power level goes up and down due to various events. For example, when we died, we didn't get our own life force back--it was gone forever--but instead the life force of the Soul Eater. And then, at the end of PoF, we clearly expend all the ley energy we'd been exposed to since Bloodstone Fen into Sohothin.

 

Also, some of the powers we've wielded have been very situational, like the abilities we used against Kralkatorrik that are useless against other dragons.

 

There's many more examples, but if you think about it, something always happens to set us back. At the end of the day, the only true power the PC has is their skill level, experience, and their political connections, especially from their reputation.

 

But likewise, this is also what would make people like Jennah no match for us. If you take someone who has been throwing knives at targets for years on end, and pit them against someone with a gun whose never fired it before, the knife thrower will likely win.

 

Jennah herself admitted she's no battle mage, and envied the Commander, because its not just about raw power, its the unparalleled experience.

 

(Even in the worst case scenerio we'd just rally our allies.)

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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On 5/4/2021 at 6:50 PM, Imba.9451 said:

Queen Jennah seems pretty OP to me.

 

Jokes aside, I'd love a Canthan commander being the next antagonist. Someone who also has a backstory of climbing up in reputation, until he or she is faced with you, the player, for whatever reason.

I'd prefer to play the Canthan commander if that happens to be the case.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Since this is a game and power scaling doesn't rly apply well, I'd say it is a mix of tech, friendship, kitten pulls and a lot of people that gets the Commander the wins. 

 

Cause if we go technical, absolutely no one except from Aurene (by extension us, when we are with her) has enough attack Potency to replicate God and elder dragon feats. 

 

All elder Dragons have the potential of becoming reality warpers, which is Lowkey universal busting in Guild Wars (Kralk). And when we stick to material feats, Zhaitan simply moved and elevated Orr. A country size (appears to be country size, if Tyria containing Orr, Kryta etc is a continent as we know of irl) land mass. Kralkatorrik's brand is a similar feat of power where he released enough energy by moving to carve the surface for almost the length of 2 continents. 

 

Then you got Primordus' shaking in IBS causing earthquakes all over Tyria (most probably felt throughout the entire continent, rather than the planet, although it's not impossible, but nothing suggests it). Earthquakes generate massive energy. And those earthquakes causing eruptions and lava to appear on the surface? That's some serious country level stuff too, if not continental. 

 

Which brings us to the Gods and how a weakened Balthazar was trying to put down 2 Elder Dragons albeit with the use of a machine specialized to suppress them. We can assume Balthazar, being the God of War, was also physically the mightiest of the 6. Which is in line with the feats of the Elder Dragons and the feats of other gods. Such as Abaddon. Who evaporated a sea in his fight... That's serious stuff for the scale the game is representing. 

 

Ultimately, if I had to put it in tiers it'd look like this:

 

OP: Aurene

God tier: Gods, Elder Dragons, Spirits of the Wild (combined), possibly Koda, Commander (only with Aurene sharing her power from nearby) (commander needs aurene) 

Demi-God tier: Dragon Champions/Top Minions (Great Destroyer, Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan included etc), Godly Avatars, Great Dwarf, Asgeir/Braham (Empowered by the Spirits) (would argue that dragon champions scale above the avatars for reasons such as the commander facing a literal avatar of Balthazar in auric basin and the existence of the grenth avatar in cursed shore being still corrupted by Zhaitan's magic. Also Braham and Ryland seem stronger than the Commander in AP but ultimately got defeated by wreaking their bond to their Elder Dragons so it's debatable if the base commander is stronger). (extreme-high diff for the commander on his own) 

Herald tier : Dragon Lieutenants (Shatterer, Tequatl), Heralds of the Gods (Herald of Balthazar etc), Mallyx (strongest margonite), Lazarus (probably strongest Mursaat), the Exalted Luminate, Vlast, Pale Tree (for her overall abilities) (commander soloes but mid-high diff) 

"Legendary" tier: Particular World and legendary Bosses (Inquest super Golems, Karka Queen, Great Jungle Wurms, Chak Burrowers etc), exceptionally powerful individuals (Joko (as much as I want Joko a tier up, he just doesn't have what it takes) Corrupted Kudu, God form Gaheron, Vinetooth Faolain, Empowered Caeducus, Queen Jennah, Shining Blade Livia, Shiro),  (enemies the commander can solo with dragon's watch/allies) 

"Champion" tier : basically champions you see in open world. Strong individuals or entities. Power ranges from massively above human to building level stuff based on sizes and abilities usually shown. Examples include, Jade constructs, Bloodstone elementals, dragon minions (Lich undead, mordrem commanders, icebrood constructs, sons of svanir leaders), the havroun, raid bosses (except for entities like Dhuum), ley line Crazed beings, Bloodstone Crazed beasts, Marionette (soloable low diff by the commander, not important entities, just some annoying enemies). 

 

Below this is gets down to your normal human stuff and weapons etc imo. 

 

And ofc power differences exist within the tiers as well as match ups due to magic or something I don't know. 

 

Edited by Grand Marshal.4098
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  • 2 weeks later...

The Commander is comparable to Gandalf, the main power is Inspiration extra points for coming back from the dead part.

This also opens up the MMO storytelling, since The Commander has reached the peak Elder dragon champion and now is the guide to new heroes, also constant escalation of power is kind of lame and renders previous achievements less meaningful like in Elder scrolls where you become the grandmaster mage, but also the grandmaster of the thieves and the assassins and fighters or in Warcraft where you champion of such and such but since its MMO you can't be the King or Warchief so the cap is reached but the escalation never ends since the new BBEG is even bigger and more powerful. In GW2 even the lore power scaling is kinda horizontal the Elder dragons don't seem way way more powerful from one to another, the strongest thing we have used in game was on Zhaitan, the Pact Megalaser.

Being Gandalf is actually quite good for MMO protagonist since it opens up story possibilities with new Heroes characters while keeping the Glory of the player since The Commander has reached the Living legend status and one more story about helping would not jump the shark.   

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On 5/5/2021 at 11:21 PM, Bast.7253 said:

How would you present this power in the format they have though? I mean, you'd think they would be considering the deeds we've been a part of and the fact that we have this "bond" with Aurene. But as far as gameplay and how it's been presented in the story it feels like our biggest power is political. In terms of our individual unassisted power level and the skill we have of our specific profession, I feel like that's not really something that's been elaborated on much. I mean, if you're playing as a mesmer, how can you compare your proficiency as a mesmer to that of Jenna that can shield a whole city and instantly mind flay three people with the point of a finger?

Or if you're playing a necro, how can you compare what you're able to do versus Majory creating bridges of bone?

In terms of Dragon's Watch, I don't feel that any of them are particularly "powerful" or overly skilled at what they do. Taimi is just highly intelligent. Canach is intelligent and cunning. But sheer power I feel like we haven't really seen. 

Kas is pretty good at creating illusions as we've seen her create powerful enough illusions for us to pose as Joko's lieutenants. We've seen her create swarms of dragon minion illusions for the tour at Grothmar. 

Braham created a shield bubble that stopped a gate from crashing in on the crew at The First City, but outside of that hasn't really displayed anything incredible.

I feel like we really need to get some elementalist representation in Dragon's Watch in Cantha though. Feels like all we've seen so far have been necros, guardians, thieves, mesmers, and rangers. 



 

Seriously. As en ele main I’ve been waiting years for even one central character to be my profession 

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On 6/5/2021 at 9:27 AM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Well, like we've stated, there was Zojja and Sieran, and we do have Effram now.

You’re right, I totally forgot efram! Credit where credit is due. But sieran is only seen by 1/3 of the playerbase, at least on their first play and she dies before the base game even ends. Not really a main character.  And zojja? Zojja is a joke in terms of elementalist representation because I’ve NEVER seen her use ANY elements. And even if my memory is just faulty and she does at some point, she hasn’t even appeared in six years.

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