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Please reconsider the Power Chrono changes (Danger time) (PvP/WvW)


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"Danger Time: Removed the critical-damage bonus."

 

I get that the purpose of this nerf is to Power Chrono DPS in PvE. But please consider the fact this change also affects Power Chrono in PvP - a build which already isn't even close to meta. This is particularly true because slow is a rarity in PvP so the uptime is much lower than in PvE. Instead of removing 10% critical damage from Chrono's burst in PvP/WvW, consider one of these suggestions:

 

  • Make "Chronophantasma" trait use the PvP/WvW version in all game modes (i.e. 50% damage reduction). This way you can unsplit the trait, reducing complexity.
  • Remove Chronophantasma, and create a new trait in its place. This trait has been overly strong in PvE and not fun to play again in PvP (because it vastly increases the number of illusions on screen, which makes fights messy and unintelligible). 
  • Make "Time Catches Up" trait use the PvP/WvW version in all game modes (i.e. 5% increased shatter damage). Once again, achieves the goal of lowering Chronomancers potential damage in PvE while not affecting PvP and also simplifying balance due to no longer being split between modes.
  • Split Danger Time. Seeing as Time Catches Up and Chronophantasma are both already split (both being weaker in PvP), there seems to be no reason not to also split Danger Time, so that PvP/WvW retains the higher modifier.
  • Raise the bonus critical hit chance on Danger Time. This trait used to give + 30% critical hit chance. I believe that + critical damage modifiers are more valuable in PvE than + critical chance modifiers (I could be wrong). In that case, consider removing the critical damage modifier as planned, but compensating this by raising the critical hit chance to around +25% (up from the current +15%). This will allow the trait to retain high value in PvP while not boosting damage as much in PvE.
  • (Edit) Make it something like "gain 10 seconds of fury when you inflict slow,  10  second cooldown". That would be good for PvP but not increase dps in PvE (because you already have perma fury there).
Edited by Quadox.7834
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Danger Time needs to be outright replaced. I don't know why they just removed the 10% crit damage and called it a day.

The fundamental problem with a critical chance trait like that with such reliance on mesmer stacking is that for solo players (as in PVP most of the time) and in WVW you cannot rely on slow. Even in openworld PVE or fractals you cannot rely on slow most of the time. The only place it shines is in instanced content where the objective is to bash on a massive HP pool for a few minutes to get a shiny.

Keep in mind, the current iteration of Danger Time is responsible for 15% damage since you need much more precision in PVE to reach crit cap without it (315 precision). The easiest way to verify this is using https://snowcrows.com/gearoptimizer/   Put in all defaults, disable sigil of accuracy if you run chronophantasma. Output damage reference number is 19.8K , if you remove danger time you get 16.9K or 16.6K if you disable thief rune and use eagle runes.

I don't feel Chronophantasma vastly increases clone count. Someone running a clone on dodge trait and/or scepter (every auto chain) has more clones than chronophantasma causes. Keep in mind the phantasms are dazed.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Danger Time needs to be outright replaced. I don't know why they just removed the 10% crit damage and called it a day.

The fundamental problem with a critical chance trait like that with such reliance on mesmer stacking is that for solo players (as in PVP most of the time) and in WVW you cannot rely on slow. Even in openworld PVE or fractals you cannot rely on slow most of the time. The only place it shines is in instanced content where the objective is to bash on a massive HP pool for a few minutes to get a shiny.

Keep in mind, the current iteration of Danger Time is responsible for 15% damage since you need much more precision in PVE to reach crit cap without it (315 precision). The easiest way to verify this is using https://snowcrows.com/gearoptimizer/   Put in all defaults, disable sigil of accuracy if you run chronophantasma. Output damage reference number is 19.8K , if you remove danger time you get 16.9K or 16.6K if you disable thief rune and use eagle runes.

I don't feel Chronophantasma vastly increases clone count. Someone running a clone on dodge trait and/or scepter (every auto chain) has more clones than chronophantasma causes. Keep in mind the phantasms are dazed.

I said "increases the number of illusions on screen". Clones =/= Illusions. Chronophantasma increases the number of illusions on screen because it keeps each phantasm up for way longer which makes them overlap which creates the mess of illusions. They don't even have a cap, unlike clones. But that's not the only problem, it also vastly increases the time it takes for a phantasm to become a clone, which makes for really clunky gameplay in PvP (this doesn't matter so much for PvE). Also, if they remove Chronophantasma, they could buff damage in some other way (if needed), which would then solve the problem Chrono has with ramp-up time (that small mobs die before your phantasms really get going).

Edited by Quadox.7834
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Point is phantasms do their attack then turn into clones. It's been that way since 2018. Before that it was harder to play mesmer since you needed to keep track of phantasms up.

Chronophantasma makes up about 20% of chronomancer damage , as phantasms make up ~40%. That's why you see StM chrono result in about 1/4 less damage as they also run a different sigil. I'm not sure how you would change it without being overpowered (the daze exists to prevent a huge damage spike), anything that results in phantasm damage increases needs to be kept in check or phantasmal berserker + phantasmal disenchanter could potentially deal high damage at range and "from stealth" (favorite PvP player complaint).

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3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Point is phantasms do their attack then turn into clones. It's been that way since 2018. Before that it was harder to play mesmer since you needed to keep track of phantasms up.

Chronophantasma makes up about 20% of chronomancer damage , as phantasms make up ~40%. That's why you see StM chrono result in about 1/4 less damage as they also run a different sigil. I'm not sure how you would change it without being overpowered (the daze exists to prevent a huge damage spike), anything that results in phantasm damage increases needs to be kept in check or phantasmal berserker + phantasmal disenchanter could potentially deal high damage at range and "from stealth" (favorite PvP player complaint).

What are you talking about. The whole point is to nerf power Chrono damage. The fact that Chronophantasma makes up 20% of Chronos damage makes this a great target. I don't understand what you are arguing against.

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I find it crazy that every single time i mention nerfing/reworking Chronophantasma, some people always rush to its defense. What is it that makes the gw2 community so attached to this trait? Have  you guys ever taken the time to compare it to empowered illusions? The latter gives +15% damage to phantasms while the former gives + ONE HUNDRED PERCENT damage to phantasms. Could it be that one of these is... slightly broken? (and that's not even speaking of the mechanical issues).

Edited by Quadox.7834
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i wrote this before, but danger time could shine if it were its own major grandmaster trait, and not able to be taken with chronophantasma

 

i defend chronophantasma from a thematic/mechanic pov as its something that actively separates core from chrono (apart from 1 button, f4), everything else is frankly passive. technically it should be a minor trait, or a grandmaster with 2 other thematic and preferably mechanic-altering traits - e.g. clones have 2 lifetimes, or something like that. i dont really care how much dmg the 2nd phantasm does, but you have to remember its not instant and it delays clone generation

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1 hour ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i wrote this before, but danger time could shine if it were its own major grandmaster trait, and not able to be taken with chronophantasma

 

i defend chronophantasma from a thematic/mechanic pov as its something that actively separates core from chrono (apart from 1 button, f4), everything else is frankly passive. technically it should be a minor trait, or a grandmaster with 2 other thematic and preferably mechanic-altering traits - e.g. clones have 2 lifetimes, or something like that. i dont really care how much dmg the 2nd phantasm does, but you have to remember its not instant and it delays clone generation

Indeed, it delays clone generation, which makes the class very clunky to play. This wasnt intended from the start, that issue was introduced in 2018 after the phantasm rework.

 

Having a phantam resummon itself might sound cool, but it is fundamentally no different from simply attacking twice.So they basically removed phantasms ability to attack multiple times in 2018 and then made a GM trait to give you back one of these attacks. Terrible. However, I wouldn't be opposed to implementing the old phantasm behavior in the form of a trait if that is possible (though it would probably be a nerf).

 

Also, it doesn't breally change how you play except making you wait for longer before shattering (unlike a proper espec mechanic like say reaper shroud). What makes Chrono unique apart from cont split is the speed and the slow (i.e. the time manipulation). Quickness, superspeed, passive movespeed, slow, alacrity. Sure it isn't as big as necro or ele (but better than warrior), but for me, even just considering power mesmer, I find great variety in core, chrono and mirage.

Edited by Quadox.7834
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1 hour ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Indeed, it delays clone generation, which makes the class very clunky to play. This wasnt intended from the start, that issue was introduced in 2018 after the phantasm rework.

 

Having a phantam resummon itself might sound cool, but it is fundamentally no different from simply attacking twice.So they basically removed phantasms ability to attack multiple times in 2018 and then made a GM trait to give you back one of these attacks. Terrible. However, I wouldn't be opposed to implementing the old phantasm behavior in the form of a trait if that is possible (though it would probably be a nerf).

 

Also, it doesn't breally change how you play except making you wait for longer before shattering (unlike a proper espec mechanic like say reaper shroud). What makes Chrono unique apart from cont split is the speed and the slow (i.e. the time manipulation). Quickness, superspeed, passive movespeed, slow, alacrity. Sure it isn't as big as necro or ele (but better than warrior), but for me, even just considering power mesmer, I find great variety in core, chrono and mirage.

 

i dont fully understand the appeal of the old phantasm system, especially when attention is drawn to how they persist. it takes far longer to ramp than the current phantasm rework pve-wise, and phantasms were never designed to last pvp/wvw-wise. the main draw was shattering anyway, which the rework took away options but also gave some. regardless, if a mesmer really needed to shatter a 1s cast-time phantasm as it spawned, they must have been very desperate


all i can say is chronophantasma allows chrono to do additional things with phantasms that core can never do. core only shoots off 1-3 phantasms and thats it. chrono deploys a small army which does creates a lot of noise, but it has a vastly different effect. its also chrono’s most original post-rework pve dps oriented trait (danger time rework broke the spec). imo, it is thematic, unique (not just a plain x% boost or +boon/condi) and has its place in the chrono traitline

 

hence why i said danger time could shine if it were separate choice from chronophantasma. the problem stems from the fact that you can use them together. alternatively, lost time could be reworked, i dont understand how thats a grandmaster either

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8 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

I find it crazy that every single time i mention nerfing/reworking Chronophantasma, some people always rush to its defense. What is it that makes the gw2 community so attached to this trait? Have  you guys ever taken the time to compare it to empowered illusions? The latter gives +15% damage to phantasms while the former gives + ONE HUNDRED PERCENT damage to phantasms. Could it be that one of these is... slightly broken? (and that's not even speaking of the mechanical issues).

Did you read the patchnotes preview?

StM, Chronophantasma, Danger Time were all slated to be nerfed. Chronophantasma does half damage already in competitive today (before patch).

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6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Did you read the patchnotes preview?

StM, Chronophantasma, Danger Time were all slated to be nerfed. Chronophantasma does half damage already in competitive today (before patch).

Of course I did, which is clear in my initial post. Hence why one of my suggestions was to unsplit Chronophantasma, reducing the PvE damage to 50% as in PvP/WvW. That way they wouldn't have to nerf the slow trait in a way that nerfs PvP Power Chrono unintentionally. Also, +50% is still hell of a lot compared to +15%. Especially since it also gives other benefits such as more prot/slow on shield phantasm, or burning on the torch phantasm.

Edited by Quadox.7834
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4 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Of course I did, which is clear in my initial post. Hence why one of my suggestions was to unsplit Chronophantasma, reducing the PvE damage to 50% as in PvP/WvW. That way they wouldn't have to nerf the slow trait in a way that nerfs PvP Power Chrono unintentionally. Also, +50% is still hell of a lot compared to +15%. Especially since it also gives other benefits such as more prot/slow on shield phantasm, or burning on the torch phantasm.


The slow trait is 100% the cause for mesmer stacking. Let's say it's 42K bench today (against golem no less) and they take away danger time, it's already going to be <36K bench with no quickness output which should be acceptable for all players unless you really want to gut chrono mesmers entirely in PVE.
Time Warp nerf was an additional measure that is no different than the change to "Feel my Wrath" on guardians.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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27 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

i dont fully understand the appeal of the old phantasm system, especially when attention is drawn to how they persist. it takes far longer to ramp than the current phantasm rework pve-wise, and phantasms were never designed to last pvp/wvw-wise. the main draw was shattering anyway, which the rework took away options but also gave some. regardless, if a mesmer really needed to shatter a 1s cast-time phantasm as it spawned, they must have been very desperate


all i can say is chronophantasma allows chrono to do additional things with phantasms that core can never do. core only shoots off 1-3 phantasms and thats it. chrono deploys a small army which does creates a lot of noise, but it has a vastly different effect. its also chrono’s most original post-rework pve dps oriented trait (danger time rework broke the spec). imo, it is thematic, unique (not just a plain x% boost or +boon/condi) and has its place in the chrono traitline

 

hence why i said danger time could shine if it were separate choice from chronophantasma. the problem stems from the fact that you can use them together. alternatively, lost time could be reworked, i dont understand how thats a grandmaster either

The phantasm rework took away a fair amount of skill for PvP Mesmer. But this is really a separate discussion so let's not get bogged down. Let's stick to the issue at hand: that they are nerfing Power Chrono in PvP by nerfing the slow trait without splitting it, as they have said they are doing.

 

""it has a vastly different effect"

No it isn't; it's the same effect, just twice.

Edited by Quadox.7834
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2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:


The slow trait is 100% the cause for mesmer stacking. Let's say it's 42K bench today (against golem no less) and they take away danger time, it's already going to be <36K bench with no quickness output which should be acceptable for all players unless you really want to gut chrono mesmers entirely in PVE.

1. How is this relevant to what I said

2. You said yourself quote "Chronophantasma makes up about 20% of chronomancer damage , as phantasms make up ~40%". So going by your 42k -> 36k numbers, you are admitting yourself that Chronophantasma is a bigger part of the damage than the slow trait.

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4 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

1. How is this relevant to what I said

2. You said yourself quote "Chronophantasma makes up about 20% of chronomancer damage , as phantasms make up ~40%". So going by your 42k -> 36k numbers, you are admitting yourself that Chronophantasma is a bigger part of the damage than the slow trait.

Chronophantasma isn't what causes stacking. Removal of danger time would mean it would be no different if you ran guardians for quickness.

edit: also nerfing Chronophantasma is a nerf to solo mesmers chronos and anyone that doesn't have slow uptime (whether it is trash mobs or just not having slow stick)

Edited by Infusion.7149
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9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Chronophantasma isn't what causes stacking. Removal of danger time would mean it would be no different if you ran guardians for quickness.

Oh, now I see what you mean. Yes, of course it is true that the slow trait benefits from higher uptime i.e. more Chronomancers. If the goal is to still have a strong Chronomancer but not reward stacking, the only solutions are to 1. split the trait and make it terrible in PvE (but don't change the values in PvP/WvW) or 2. rework the trait entirely. Number 1 seems more realistic. Though, this said, I would still rework Chronophantasma but we can keep this to a separate  discussion.

Edited by Quadox.7834
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Just now, Quadox.7834 said:

Oh, now I see what you mean. Yes, of course it is true that the slow trait benefits from higher uptime i.e. more Chronomancers. Yet this update doesn't fix that; you still have to stack just as much, you just get less damage in total. In this case the only solutions are to 1. split the trait and make it terrible in PvE (but don't change the values in PvP/WvW) or 2. rework the trait entirely.

That's why I said Danger Time should be removed and replaced in my first reply (scroll up).

With the change to Exposed in the same patch , CFB will remain dominant.

There's ways to make chrono playable in WVW/PVP without having to resort to small burst windows on slowed targets (which can be partially countered by any condi clear). With the loss of distortion on chrono, generally power core mesmer is preferred anyway. Chronophantasma is only useful if you aren't able to burst in one shatter combo.

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33 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's why I said Danger Time should be removed and replaced in my first reply (scroll up).


With the change to Exposed in the same patch , CFB will remain dominant.


There's ways to make chrono playable in WVW/PVP without having to resort to small burst windows on slowed targets (which can be partially countered by any condi clear). With the loss of distortion on chrono, generally power core mesmer is preferred anyway. Chronophantasma is only useful if you aren't able to burst in one shatter combo.

I don't have to scroll up, I know that you wrote that. Which i agree is one option.

On the PvP stuff:

1. There is no problem with small burst windows. In fact, it suits very well for a roamer playstyle.

2. Power Chrono is already playable (watch Shorts' stream). It just lacks a bit of survivability, particularly condition removal, which is why it has been suggested by many to add condition removal to Ether Feast.

3. It isn't a bad thing that it can be "partially countered by condi clear". That's like saying might can be countered by boon strip. Counterplay is a good thing.

4. Core Power Mesmer isn't preferred over Chrono in PvP; sure in some matchups PU stealth core power Mes will be better, but in general core doesn't have the "oumph" to have impact in this tanky meta we are in (again, would suggest Shorts' stream). Also, Core PU will be severely nerfed after the may 11 patch due to the hard nerf of mantra of pain. So it would be a shame if Power Chrono is ALSO nerfed (which is what this slow trait change will do).

5. Chronophantasma just isn't used on power builds in PvP because the phantasms are so nerfed they barely do any damage, it is used on condition builds though because the burning on Mage and bleeding on Duelist aren't affected by the 50% damage reduction, and the torch phantasm actually still does something.

Edited by Quadox.7834
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3 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

I don't have to scroll up, I know that you wrote that. Which i agree is one option.

On the PvP stuff:

1. There is no problem with small burst windows. In fact, it suits very well for a roamer playstyle.

2. Power Chrono is already playable (watch Shorts' stream). It just lacks a bit of survivability, particularly condition removal, which is why it has been suggested by many to add condition removal to Ether Feast.

3. It isn't a bad thing that it can be "partially countered by condi clear". That's like saying might can be countered by boon strip. Counterplay is a good thing.

4. Core Power Mesmer isn't preferred over Chrono in PvP; sure in some matchups PU stealth core power Mes will be better, but in general core doesn't have the "oumph" to have impact in this tanky meta we are in (again, would suggest Shorts' stream). Also, Core PU will be severely nerfed after the may 11 patch due to the hard nerf of mantra of pain. So it would be a shame if Power Chrono is ALSO nerfed (which is what this slow trait change will do).

5. Chronophantasma just isn't used on power builds in PvP because the phantasms are so nerfed they barely do any damage, it is used on condition builds though because the burning on Mage and bleeding on Duelist aren't affected by the 50% damage reduction, and the torch phantasm actually still does something.

If this is about PVP primarily (then fix the thread title) you'd have a case. In WVW, relying on conditions outside of roaming is extremely unwieldy. Because people stack toughness (minstrel / karka potions / mussels gnashblade or ascended food "peppercorn" -10% damage / etc) and protection most of the time chrono is in a support role not an offense one.

There's a 1.5s duration on slow from disables in the chrono traitline (Delayed Reactions) and then 1.5s daze on summoned chronophantasma phantasms so that's why danger time doesn't have full benefit anyhow.

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34 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If this is about PVP primarily (then fix the thread title) you'd have a case. In WVW, relying on conditions outside of roaming is extremely unwieldy. Because people stack toughness (minstrel / karka potions / mussels gnashblade or ascended food "peppercorn" -10% damage / etc) and protection most of the time chrono is in a support role not an offense one.

There's a 1.5s duration on slow from disables in the chrono traitline (Delayed Reactions) and then 1.5s daze on summoned chronophantasma phantasms so that's why danger time doesn't have full benefit anyhow.

1. So because slow trait isn't good in WvW "outside of roaming" (which apparently is irrelevant to you), it is fine to nerf it further, making it even more useless? That makes no sense. This thread is about the non-need of nerfing slow trait in PvP/WvW, as compared to PvE.

2. (2nd paragraph) I'm not quite understanding what you are saying here.

 

Edited by Quadox.7834
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1 hour ago, Quadox.7834 said:

1. So because slow trait isn't good in WvW "outside of roaming" (which apparently is irrelevant to you), it is fine to nerf it further, making it even more useless? That makes no sense. This thread is about the non-need of nerfing slow trait in PvP/WvW, as compared to PvE.

2. (2nd paragraph) I'm not quite understanding what you are saying here.

 

It should be replaced.

It's 1.5s slow on CC, with 1.5s daze on chronophantasm so the extra strike doesn't get the damage bonus automatically unless you chain slow/CC skills

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10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It should be replaced.

It's 1.5s slow on CC, with 1.5s daze on chronophantasm so the extra strike doesn't get the damage bonus automatically unless you chain slow/CC skills

I would personally be completely fine with replacing it, as it isn't a viral part of the PvP build anyway (unlike the superspeed and quickness traits), but in the meanwhile (they are obv not gonna replace it on may 11) it should at least not get nerfed in PvP/WvW, where Power Chrono is already underperforming!

Edited by Quadox.7834
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12 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

The phantasm rework took away a fair amount of skill for PvP Mesmer. But this is really a separate discussion so let's not get bogged down. Let's stick to the issue at hand: that they are nerfing Power Chrono in PvP by nerfing the slow trait without splitting it, as they have said they are doing.

 

""it has a vastly different effect"

No it isn't; it's the same effect, just twice.


‘the same effect, just twice’ is a gross oversimplification. the fact that its twice is already a big difference from it occurring just once

 

i dont believe chrono should have any raw straight up boosts relative to core because imo thats just boring flavor. you can revert danger time back to +30% crit chance (like it was before, only now it also affects illusions) but the dmg boost can stay gone, youre using it for raw burst output which seems more core mesmer territory

 

i think it would make more sense if chrono really pushed that double/more frequent skill usage, they should skillsplit f4 cd to come down to ~60s in pvp/wvw. maybe create a shatterspam option to compete with spamtasms, and/or another trait to further reduce f4 cd so you can double up on other skills

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5 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:


‘the same effect, just twice’ is a gross oversimplification. the fact that its twice is already a big difference from it occurring just once

It's not an oversimplification, that's precisely what it does - the same effect twice. You defended Chronophantasma on a mechanic/thematic level, that it is a substantial part of what makes Chrono unique, which draws comparisons to things like Reaper shroud, Tempest overloads, Holo forge, but the thing is unlike those, Chronophantasma doesn't change how you play except that you have to wait longer to press a shatter.

Quote

i dont believe chrono should have any raw straight up boosts relative to core because imo thats just boring flavor. you can revert danger time back to +30% crit chance (like it was before, only now it also affects illusions) but the dmg boost can stay gone, youre using it for raw burst output which seems more core mesmer territory

1. Chrono actually is more specialized in burst output than core, I mean that's what continuum split does, while core has more defense because it has distortion. The most common power core build (PU shatter) is way more defensive than the common Power Chrono build.

2. I would be fine with +30% crit chance, in the OP I gave the suggestion to raise the critical hit chance to +25%.

Another option could be something like "Gain X seconds of fury when you inflict slow, Y seconds cooldown". This would be a big PvP buff but not matter in PvE (because you have perma fury in PvE anyway).

Quote

 

i think it would make more sense if chrono really pushed that double/more frequent skill usage, they should skillsplit f4 cd to come down to ~60s in pvp/wvw. maybe create a shatterspam option to compete with spamtasms, and/or another trait to further reduce f4 cd so you can double up on other skills

1. Trust me if cont split got 60 second cooldown in PvP I would not give a kitten about the slow trait, but this thread is about me not wanting PvP Power Chrono to be nerfed even further when it is already underperforming.

2. The shatter spam option is Illusionary Reversion.

Edited by Quadox.7834
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3 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

It's not an oversimplification, that's precisely what it does - the same effect twice. You defended Chronophantasma on a mechanic/thematic level, that it is a substantial part of what makes Chrono unique, which draws comparisons to things like Reaper shroud, Tempest overloads, Holo forge, but the thing is unlike those, Chronophantasma doesn't change how you play except that you have to wait longer to press a shatter.

 

i never compared chronophantsma to an actual profession mechanic. it might not change the buttons you press, but it isnt just a simple numerical change either (especially for opponents - they cant just 'deal with it, twice'). besides, the 'clunk' or delay is still a minor but mechanical consideration you have to account for

 

Quote

1. Chrono actually is more specialized in burst output than core, I mean that's what continuum split does, while core has more defense because it has distortion.

 

this is perfectly fine as its chrono using one of its supposed utilities (doubled/more frequent skill use) to gain an edge over core

 

Quote

2. The shatter spam option is Illusionary Reversion.

 

similar to the idea above, i was thinking that chrono should have an option that allows them to pull off more shatters than core, perhaps at the cost of its raw power or burstiness. whether it is used defensively (to proc traits) or offensively (wearing down the opponent) depends on how the user wants to use it. this used to be the first iteration of 3-clone rewinder (10s cd), but they increased the minimum cooldown after IP was reverted

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