Please reconsider the Power Chrono changes (Danger time) (PvP/WvW)

[Quadox.7834]

18 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

i never compared chronophantsma to an actual profession mechanic. it might not change the buttons you press, but it isnt just a simple numerical change either (especially for opponents - they cant just 'deal with it, twice'). besides, the 'clunk' or delay is still a minor but mechanical consideration you have to account for

You said this "i defend chronophantasma from a thematic/mechanic pov as its something that actively separates core from chrono (apart from 1 button, f4), everything else is frankly passive. technically it should be a minor trait." Which essentially is you arguing that Chronophantasma is and should be an integral part of the elite spec rather than just some not-well-designed trait that should be removed (my standpoint). My point is that it doesn't really change how you play much, which is why I don't agree with your "thematic/mechanic pov". Continuum split, however, is very interesting both mechanically and thematically, and changes how you play and does make Chrono very distinct from Mirage/Core, and also has the benefit of being fun and not clunky.

 

Yes, you do indeed have to account for its clunkiness. Which is a bad thing; Illusion AI is already bad and clunky enough as it is. And it's not like this clunkiness has always been an integral and intended part of Chrono, it was only introduced in 2018.

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this is perfectly fine as its chrono using one of its supposed utilities (doubled/more frequent skill use) to gain an edge over core

 

Mhm, my point is that core is more specialized in sustain and survivability than Chrono, so burst is not "more core mesmer territory".

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similar to the idea above, i was thinking that chrono should have an option that allows them to pull off more shatters than core, perhaps at the cost of its raw power or burstiness. whether it is used defensively (to proc traits) or offensively (wearing down the opponent) depends on how the user wants to use it. this used to be the first iteration of 3-clone rewinder (10s cd), but they increased the minimum cooldown after IP was reverted

Alacrity + Rewinder + Illusionary Reversion is basically this clone spam concept you are talking about. Early in HoT, Illusionary Reversion only required shattering 2 clones, but this turned out to be excessive and was nerfed (a nerf which was justified). Old illusionary reversion, chronophantasma and pre-nerf alacrity together would lag people's game because of the illusion-spam it produced.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

Not a huge fan of outright removing Chronophantasma. Nerf, w.e. that's fine.

It's one of the few actually interesting traits you can play around in the game. Danger Time you can't really play around that much because your access to slow is pretty low. (Understandably so, it'd be pretty busted if you could just spam slow on everyone)

It's kind of the same problem with a lot of the chaos trait reworks. Like, when am I going to play around regeneration? I don't feel like any of the devs who worked on that ever asked themselves that question.


Honestly, if you want to fix chrono being busted.
There's one skill you have to look at. It's called continuum split. It's the core function of the spec. And it's the cause of more nerfs than most people can even count.

Chronophantasma OP? Well lets double the phantasm doubling with continuum split.

[Quadox.7834]

41 minutes ago, TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

Not a huge fan of outright removing Chronophantasma. Nerf, w.e. that's fine.

Sure, keep it.

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It's one of the few actually interesting traits you can play around in the game. Danger Time you can't really play around that much because your access to slow is pretty low. (Understandably so, it'd be pretty busted if you could just spam slow on everyone)

1. Slow well, arcane thievery, time warp, f3, delayed reactions, there quite a lot of potential sources of slow. Though the reward isn't worth it in PvP unless the trait were stronger.

2. The fact that you don't have perma or near-perma slow makes it more important and relevant to play around, not less. So you need to attack at opportune moments instead of just having a permanent boost. And for the enemy, it has counterplay in the form of using a defensive skill like a block (which lasts longer due to the slow) or using a cleanse. In fact, it has more counterplay than most other damage modifiers in the game such (think, egotism).

3. Not sure how you "play around" Chronophantasma. Dodge twice? In my opinion and experience, Chronophantasma has (in PvP) mostly contributed to enabling boring/annoying builds, like bunker Chrono 2.0. Most of the time it incentivizes you to get out your phantasms and then kite and play defensively while hoping that your phantasms AI works properly so that they hit the target after some 3 seconds of waiting. But tbh I'm fine with keeping it, at least as long as it isn't part of a tanky meta sidenoder build.

 

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It's kind of the same problem with a lot of the chaos trait reworks. Like, when am I going to play around regeneration? I don't feel like any of the devs who worked on that ever asked themselves that question.

I agree on the Chaos line, it is mostly pretty boring, though the shot duration stab on shatter can be neat.

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Honestly, if you want to fix chrono being busted.
There's one skill you have to look at. It's called continuum split. It's the core function of the spec. And it's the cause of more nerfs than most people can even count.

Chronophantasma OP? Well lets double the phantasm doubling with continuum split.

1. Chrono isn't busted (if we are talking PvP/WvW, which I am because PvE is just a numbers game and very easy to balance)

2. Yes obviously Continuum Split is very strong, though it is forgiven due to the fact that it is one of the coolest skills in any game, has a high skillcap, and is neither too frustrating nor boring to play against (unlike for example IH staff chaos mes) (potentially except for moa reset but all you would have to do is disallow elite skills from being reset just like they already do with Mimic). You can counter continuum split very very easily, all you have to do is press elixir S/stealth if you are engi, stealth if you are thief, and so on. You have just ruined his 90 sec cd combo. Also, I think they hit the head on the nail when they removed distortion from Chrono. This tradeoff is great because it isn't obvious; both are broken in their own right and both have their advantages (just as you argue CS is busted, so is distortion - invulnerability that you can attack and move during).

3. Yep, CS allows you to double the phantasms just like CP, but only only every ~90 secs, which gives a very clear window of counterplay (for example, if you stealth the mes cannot summon anything and his combo is ruined). It is generally easier to counter something that lasts a short time, with a long cooldown, than something which goes on always and chips at your health (again IH staff condi mirage was a great example).

4. I would argue that what caused most of the nerfs to Chrono was alacrity being busted on release (it had to be nerfed 50->33->25% iirc) and wells being incredibly strong (evasion for 3 seconds for your entire team, plus alacrity). But CS certainly contributed to some nerfs, notably Moa (back then I advocated for leaving moa unnerfed and removing the ability to reset elites from CS). Really though, you can't separate causes like this, it was a combination of everything that meant things had to be nerfed. And if you are going to be nerfing things, it is better to nerfs things that aren't vital for the enjoyment of the class, such as the alacrity modifier, than something which is really fun and thematically fitting (CS). I applaud them for finally nerfing the proper things on Chrono, and I honestly think Chrono is in a better state than ever in terms of having counterplay, and being a true tradeoff to Mirage and Core.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Noodle Ant.1605]

7 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

You said this "i defend chronophantasma from a thematic/mechanic pov as its something that actively separates core from chrono (apart from 1 button, f4), everything else is frankly passive. technically it should be a minor trait."

 

I think you're just having problems understanding what I've written.

 

1. If I meant thematic AND mechanic, I would have written 'thematic AND mechanic'. Regardless, phantasms are 100% mesmer identity, having them appear twice is very much in line with chrono so it can't possibly be 'not thematic'. The mechanic PoV is harder to agree with (hence the /), but the PoV I gave was that it isn't some generic % boost or +boon under x condition unlike majority of chrono traits. It's an active difference you can interact with rather than a fully passive one. 

 

I stick to minor/grandmaster trait but then you go off talking about a whole profession mechanic (Csplit), of course it won't have the same mechanical impact.

 

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Yes, you do indeed have to account for its clunkiness. Which is a bad thing; Illusion AI is already bad and clunky enough as it is. And it's not like this clunkiness has always been an integral and intended part of Chrono, it was only introduced in 2018.

 

I don't think it makes sense if a clone spawns whilst the phantasm that is meant to create it has yet to respawn, attack again, etc. Unless it creates twice the amount of clones (can lead to excessive clone generation, which you apparently have a problem with/think is bad). As far as we know this is 100% intentional if you have chronophantasma. I was fine with leaving it as an optional grandmaster but you didn't include that section and implied that I thought chronophantasma should be a non-optional minor.

 

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Mhm, my point is that core is more specialized in sustain and survivability than Chrono, so burst is not "more core mesmer territory".

 

From what I'm given, you want the the exact same combo (without the respawning phantasm) to hit harder on chrono than core. Why should it, when you can pull it off TWICE and/or more frequently than core? This is what the dmg bonus from danger time doesn't respect.

 

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Alacrity + Rewinder + Illusionary Reversion is basically this clone spam concept you are talking about. Early in HoT, Illusionary Reversion only required shattering 2 clones, but this turned out to be excessive and was nerfed (a nerf which was justified). Old illusionary reversion, chronophantasma and pre-nerf alacrity together would lag people's game because of the illusion-spam it produced.

 

I wrote about the initial 10s CD (recharge reductions not yet applied) 3-clone rewinder. You say that this exists with the current 18s CD 3-clone rewinder, which is almost twice the CD. Of course you need additional clone generation/spam (illusionary reversion) to spam it off cooldown, but I never wrote anything about that. Rewinder was introduced post illusionary reversion nerf anyway.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Noodle Ant.1605
some typos

[Quadox.7834]

5 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

I think you're just having problems understanding what I've written.

 

1. If I meant thematic AND mechanic, I would have written 'thematic AND mechanic'. Regardless, phantasms are 100% mesmer identity, having them appear twice is very much in line with chrono so it can't possibly be 'not thematic'. The mechanic PoV is harder to agree with (hence the /), but the PoV I gave was that it isn't some generic % boost or +boon under x condition unlike majority of chrono traits. It's an active difference you can interact with rather than a fully passive one. 

I cannot understand you if you don't write clearly, I mean what does "thematic OR mechanic" even mean - that you don't know what your own opinion is?

 

No no, I agree with you that Chronophantasma is thematically fitting to Chronomancer.

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I stick to minor/grandmaster trait but then you go off talking about a whole profession mechanic (Csplit), of course it won't have the same mechanical impact.

Of course, because you played up the importance of Chronophantasma and made it sound integral to Chrono because it actively separates core from chrono" while "everything else is frankly passive" and even said it "should be a minor trait". Whereas I just think it is a badly designed trait among many, one that should preferably be reworked.

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I don't think it makes sense if a clone spawns whilst the phantasm that is meant to create it has yet to respawn, attack again, etc.

I haven't argued that it should, I think it should have an entirely different effect, it doesn't need to have anything to do with doubling phantasms.

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Unless it creates twice the amount of clones

 

In the past the trait would resummon phantasms after you shattered them, this was more fun and not clunky like the current iteration but it was very powercrept (as HoT was in general).

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(can lead to excessive clone generation, which you apparently have a problem with/think is bad).

It can certainly be a problem, though in this discussion I've mostly talked about excessive numbers of illusions, rather than clones specifically.

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As far as we know this is 100% intentional if you have chronophantasma. I was fine with leaving it as an optional grandmaster but you didn't include that section and implied that I thought chronophantasma should be a non-optional minor.

Quote "it should be a minor trait".

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From what I'm given, you want the the exact same combo (without the respawning phantasm) to hit harder on chrono than core. Why should it, when you can pull it off TWICE and/or more frequently than core? This is what the dmg bonus from danger time doesn't respect.

Core is more defensive, Mirage has more mobility. But core is certainly overnerfed in some places (much because of Mirage, a clear example is the vigor minor in dueling). Luckily, by the way, even you you completely remove Danger Time, we can just go Improved Alacrity or Reversion and do the same thing with marginally lesser results. Danger Time is not great, just the least bad of three below average traits. And it would be a shame to nerf PvP Chrono when it is already underperforming.

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I wrote about the initial 10s CD (recharge reductions not yet applied) 3-clone rewinder. You say that this exists with the current 18s CD 3-clone rewinder, which is almost twice the CD. Of course you need additional clone generation/spam (illusionary reversion) to spam it off cooldown, but I never wrote anything about that. Rewinder was introduced post illusionary reversion nerf anyway.

Sorry, I meant shatter spam not clone spam playstyle. You asked for such a playstyle "i was thinking that chrono should have an option that allows them to pull off more shatters than core" and in my mind we basically already have this due to CS, alacrity and rewinder - and illusionary reversion is catered towards such a playstyle.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Noodle Ant.1605]

 

2 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Of course, because you played up the importance of Chronophantasma and made it sound integral to Chrono because it actively separates core from chrono" while "everything else is frankly passive" and even said it "should be a minor trait". Whereas I just think it is a badly designed trait among many, one that should preferably be reworked.

No. You butchered my post and put words into my mouth:

 

On 5/5/2021 at 9:49 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

technically it should be a minor trait, OR a grandmaster with 2 other thematic and preferably mechanic-altering traits

 

and I can say that I prefer the latter.

 

Outside of Csplit, chronophantasma, illusionary reversion, shield and wells, everything else IS pretty much a passive boost to core abilities (like danger time).

 

2 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

In the past the trait would resummon phantasms after you shattered them, this was more fun and not clunky like the current iteration but it was very powercrept (as HoT was in general).

 

Other people find the current iteration fun and the past one clunky. This is fairly subjective, however.

 

2 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Core is more defensive, Mirage has more mobility.

 

This isn't Niche Wars 2, specializations are not predefined to specific niches. Especially with chrono, which should be treated as a utility package - you can use this utility to do your burst twice, or bunker up instead. There's nothing innately about chrono that suggests it should deal more damage than core (outside Csplit, chronophantasma, etc.). Unless you're looking at metas, which have absolutely no bearing on how the specialization should function.

 

Not to mention there's another specialization coming around as well.

 

2 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Sorry, I meant shatter spam not clone spam playstyle. You asked for such a playstyle "i was thinking that chrono should have an option that allows them to pull off more shatters than core" and in my mind we basically already have this due to CS, alacrity and rewinder - and illusionary reversion is catered towards such a playstyle.

 

Yes, with a 105 CD Csplit, alacrity which can come from anywhere, rewinder with a horrible CD for frequently unloading shatters and illusionary reversion which is rarely touched anymore. (I don’t think attempting this on chrono is all that much better than on core)

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Noodle Ant.1605

[Quadox.7834]

50 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

No. You butchered my post and put words into my mouth:

 

 

and I can say that I prefer the latter.

Thank you for making that clear. Also there were by definition no words put into your mouth.

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Outside of Csplit, chronophantasma, illusionary reversion, shield and wells, everything else IS pretty much a passive boost to core abilities (like danger time).

1. "Outside of *a ton of things*, everything is passive".

2. Depends what you mean by passive. Is the superspeed from Time Catches Up passive? If you consider it so, then a passive can clearly be a good thing with a lot of identity.

3. Danger time boost damage on slow, slow is not a core ability. Primarily (for PvP) it enhances Time Sink, which is a unique skill to Chrono.

4. F1 does more damage but half of it can be dodged or walked out of, which creates more incentive to combo it with lockdown skills like sword 3 or gravity well. Hard to call a passive boost.

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Other people find the current iteration fun and the past one clunky. This is fairly subjective, however.

No they don't find the past one clunky.

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This isn't Niche Wars 2, specializations are not predefined to specific niches. Especially with chrono, which should be treated as a utility package - you can use this utility to do your burst twice, or bunker up instead. There's nothing innately about chrono that suggests it should deal more damage than core (outside Csplit, chronophantasma, etc.). Unless you're looking at metas, which have absolutely no bearing on how the specialization should function.

1. Especs are oftentimes created with certain niches in mind, while also allowing for diff playstyles. For example, mirage was clearly designed with conditions and defense in mind more so than power, which you will clearly see on the traits.

2. This doesn't matter, the point is that there is a tradeoff in the game right now in PvP, which for power mes (which is what we are talking about since we are talking about Danger Time) is that Chrono has less survivability than core, and less mobility than mirage, but higher potential burst than either.

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Not to mention there's another specialization coming around as well.

.

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Yes, with a 105 CD Csplit, alacrity which can come from anywhere, rewinder with a horrible CD for frequently unloading shatters and illusionary reversion which is rarely touched anymore. (I don’t think attempting this on chrono is all that much better than on core)

 

You can watch Helseth playing a rewinder-focused build with Illusionary Reversion in top 10 on EU if you wish, twitch.tv/thelordhelseth

Edited May 7, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Noodle Ant.1605]

4 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

1. "Outside of *a ton of things*, everything is passive".

2. Depends what you mean by passive. Is the superspeed from Time Catches Up passive? If you consider it so, then a passive can clearly be a good thing with a lot of identity.

3. Danger time boost damage on slow, slow is not a core ability. Primarily (for PvP) it enhances Time Sink, which is a unique skill to Chrono.

4. F1 does more damage but half of it can be dodged or walked out of, which creates more incentive to combo it with lockdown skills like sword 3 or gravity well. Hard to call a passive boost.

1. If it were ideally a ton, chrono wouldn't have to copy so much of core, but given that chrono is essentially 'core, twice' (excuse my oversimplification) this might be unavoidable.
2. Straddles the line between both. Depends how you look at it and what you focus on.
3. Chrono can output more slow than core, but it is not exclusive to chrono.
4. But this implies that chrono's burst shouldn't really hit harder (or more accurately, dps harder) than core's.

I do realize many other especs have many passive elements and traits, however. Maybe the main issue I have with chrono is that most of its traits don't try to interact with unique mechanics (because it lacks them? I can't say). It's probably the result of alacrity being ripped off from chrono and made into a generic boon, making chrono a cheap espec and less impactful as a result.

 

Maybe improved alacrity (with or without duration reduction) would've been a more fitting suggestion for a minor trait, but I wouldn't force it. /shrug

 

4 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

No they don't find the past one clunky.

 

I understand the current iteration has a delay, but 'clunk' and 'more fun' is really subjective.

 

4 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

1. Especs are oftentimes created with certain niches in mind, while also allowing for diff playstyles. For example, mirage was clearly designed with conditions and defense in mind more so than power, which you will clearly see on the traits.

2. This doesn't matter, the point is that there is a tradeoff in the game right now in PvP, which for power mes (which is what we are talking about since we are talking about Danger Time) is that Chrono has less survivability than core, and less mobility than mirage, but higher potential burst than either.

 

Especs are created with a theme and possibly a mechanic in mind. Niches can influence, but do not drive the final result (which is always subject to change/weird balance decisions). Chrono's base design suggests it was originally intended for support, but people made bunkers, bruisers, healers and damage dealers out of it. Mirage went from duelist to a one dodge dumpster (/s), I don't know what happened there.

 

But anyway, I digress. My main points were:

1. I don't believe danger time (and chrono in general) needs any straight-up dmg bonuses.
2. I don't think there is enough reason to remove chronophantasma.

It's funny how how someone suggested removing Csplit beacaue I'd defend that as well. Perhaps chrono is so broken or messed up, it's due for a complete scrapping and reinvention.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

On 5/6/2021 at 5:01 PM, Quadox.7834 said:

1. Slow well, arcane thievery, time warp, f3, delayed reactions, there quite a lot of potential sources of slow. Though the reward isn't worth it in PvP unless the trait were stronger.

Slow well - you are never taking this in PvP

Arcane Thievery - Good

Time Warp - you are never taking this in PvP

f3 - Good

Delayed Reactions  - Maybe, but in PvP time catches up is a better pick generally

 

So that's 2 and maybe a 3rd.... Yeah. Not something you're generally going to play around.

 

On 5/6/2021 at 5:01 PM, Quadox.7834 said:

3. Not sure how you "play around" Chronophantasma. Dodge twice?

I meant from the Chono's perspective. You can hold your burst until the 2nd phantasm is ready to attack.

As for from an enemy perspective, interrupt the phantasm, line of sight it, disengage, pop a reflect if it's range. Maybe pop resistance if you know the enemy Condi Chono is waiting for it.

 

On 5/6/2021 at 5:01 PM, Quadox.7834 said:

1. Chrono isn't busted (if we are talking PvP/WvW, which I am because PvE is just a numbers game and very easy to balance)

Chrono isn't busted (at the moment), but its core mechanic is. Being able to do the same thing core mesmer does, except twice? Completely borked. Means core mesmer has to endure multiple nerfs to abilities that were never a problem before continuum split was added to a game.

 

 

On 5/6/2021 at 5:01 PM, Quadox.7834 said:

2. Yes obviously Continuum Split is very strong, though it is forgiven due to the fact that it is one of the coolest skills in any game, has a high skillcap, and is neither too frustrating nor boring to play against (unlike for example IH staff chaos mes) (potentially except for moa reset but all you would have to do is disallow elite skills from being reset just like they already do with Mimic). You can counter continuum split very very easily, all you have to do is press elixir S/stealth if you are engi, stealth if you are thief, and so on. You have just ruined his 90 sec cd combo. Also, I think they hit the head on the nail when they removed distortion from Chrono. This tradeoff is great because it isn't obvious; both are broken in their own right and both have their advantages (just as you argue CS is busted, so is distortion - invulnerability that you can attack and move during).

It has a high skill cap, problem being it's insanely frustrating to play against. You're doubling a Chrono's burst. Something that used to be way, way more busted before Phantasms were made to not shatter. You're also potentially doubling stealth, doubling blocks, doubling interrupts.

Yeah, you can "play around" this, if it's used offensively. If it's used defensively it has no real counter play.

I also don't find distortion to be anywhere in the realm of Continuum Split. Though I agree it was a good decision to remove it from Chono with them keeping CS.

 

On 5/6/2021 at 5:01 PM, Quadox.7834 said:

4. I would argue that what caused most of the nerfs to Chrono was alacrity being busted on release (it had to be nerfed 50->33->25% iirc) and wells being incredibly strong (evasion for 3 seconds for your entire team, plus alacrity).

Yeah, to Chrono. Although I'd argue that Alacrity, while powerful, is literally just made even more busted by Continuum split. Same with Well of Precognition. And well... every AoE ability mesmer has in the game. There's, kind of a reason why Mes doesn't run wells very often in any game mode, outside of maybe the heal well. Because you can't make them strong without continuum split making them even stronger.

What caused Signet of Inspiration, Time Warp, and Moa to be nerfed exactly? The skill added to the game that allows them to be used twice. Or their base effects being OP?

Edited May 8, 2021 by TheOneWhoSighs.7513

[Quadox.7834]

52 minutes ago, TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

Slow well - you are never taking this in PvP

Arcane Thievery - Good

Time Warp - you are never taking this in PvP

f3 - Good

Delayed Reactions  - Maybe, but in PvP time catches up is a better pick generally

 

So that's 2 and maybe a 3rd.... Yeah. Not something you're generally going to play around.

What do you even mean by "play around". Maybe you are meaning to say "build around" or something.

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I meant from the Chono's perspective. You can hold your burst until the 2nd phantasm is ready to attack.

As for from an enemy perspective, interrupt the phantasm, line of sight it, disengage, pop a reflect if it's range. Maybe pop resistance if you know the enemy Condi Chono is waiting for it.

Yeah, the same as you would with a single phantasm, just twice.

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Chrono isn't busted (at the moment), but its core mechanic is. Being able to do the same thing core mesmer does, except twice? Completely borked. Means core mesmer has to endure multiple nerfs to abilities that were never a problem before continuum split was added to a game.

Losing distortion is a pretty good tradeoff actually. It's a really busted skill, invuln that you can attack and move and heal during. But obviously, core is still underpowered compared to Chrono but alacrity plays a huge huge part in that.

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It has a high skill cap, problem being it's insanely frustrating to play against.

I have literally never had that problem at least since Chrono lost distortion. If you see a Chrono use CS, you can use stealth or elixir S for example, and you have ruined his 90 second cd combo. Mirage has generally been way more frustrating to play against. And even getting oneshot from PU stealth mantra core mesmers.

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You're doubling a Chrono's burst. Something that used to be way, way more busted before Phantasms were made to not shatter.

In what way was it way way more busted do you mean? Which period & build are you talking about (or all of them?).

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You're also potentially doubling stealth, doubling blocks, doubling interrupts.

Yeah, you can "play around" this, if it's used offensively. If it's used defensively it has no real counter play.

CS can indeed be used for some defense but it isn't nearly as good of a panic button as distortion is. For example, if you get stuck in a DH trap, distortion is going to help you a lot more than CS. And if the mesmer uses it to survive a couple seconds longer (and he delays his heal to do this by the way, except final tick from well heal) it will be on a 90 second cooldown and he wont be able to use it offensively to burst you. This is immense value. You can also destroy the crystal that is left behind when Chrono uses CS, which will force end the continuum split early. Another thing is that he cannot run away while in CS (unlike distortion), because he will get teleported back to you, so it isn't as good for escaping.

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I also don't find distortion to be anywhere in the realm of Continuum Split. Though I agree it was a good decision to remove it from Chono with them keeping CS.

 

Yeah, to Chrono. Although I'd argue that Alacrity, while powerful, is literally just made even more busted by Continuum split. Same with Well of Precognition.

True for Well of Precognition (and every single other skill, by definition, except healing skills that get reverted). This doesn't mean anything whatsoever though because again it applies to every skill. False for Alacrity.

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And well... every AoE ability mesmer has in the game.

Why would it just be AoE abilities?

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There's, kind of a reason why Mes doesn't run wells very often in any game mode, outside of maybe the heal well. Because you can't make them strong without continuum split making them even stronger.

That's completely ridiculous. That argument could be legitimate if wells were a core skill category, but because they are unique to Chrono, they are literally the easiest utilities on the entire class to balance around CS. The reason wells aren't run is quite simply because they overnerfed them like crazy.

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What caused Signet of Inspiration, Time Warp, and Moa to be nerfed exactly? The skill added to the game that allows them to be used twice. Or their base effects being OP?

I have previously said that I think disallowing duplicating elite skills with CS could be a good change. This is already done with mimic. If they had kept Time Warp with its original effect (no slow) it would have been fine (it was meta in core PvE anyway).

Edited May 8, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Quadox.7834]

12 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

1. If it were ideally a ton, chrono wouldn't have to copy so much of core, but given that chrono is essentially 'core, twice' (excuse my oversimplification) this might be unavoidable.
2. Straddles the line between both. Depends how you look at it and what you focus on.
3. Chrono can output more slow than core, but it is not exclusive to chrono.
4. But this implies that chrono's burst shouldn't really hit harder (or more accurately, dps harder) than core's.

1. You made a pretty long list of thing and basically said "but everything else is passive!"
"outside of csplit, chronophantasma, illusionary reversion, shield and wells, everything else is passive
"outside of function gyro, mass momentum, hammer and wells, everything else is passive
"outside of swipe, dash , impaing lotus, bound, staff and physical skills, everything else is passive
"outside of csplit, chronophantasma, illusionary reversion, shield and wells, everything else is passive
"outside of spear of justice, wings of resolve, shield of reversion, longbow and traps, everything else is passive"

 

Also, Chronophantasma can just as well be considered a "passive boost to core abilities": 1. it boosts core abilities (your phantasm skills) and 2. you don't have to activate it i.e. it is passive.

 

Saying that Chronophantasma is "your phantasms, twice" is not an oversimplification, it's quite an accurate description.
2. .

3. Sure, just like alacrity it isn't exclusive to Chrono but is closely associated with it and thematically belongs there. And just as Alacrity has a trait which enhances it in the Chronomancer traitline, so does slow (Danger Time).

4. Not sure what you mean here.
 

12 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

I do realize many other especs have many passive elements and traits, however. Maybe the main issue I have with chrono is that most of its traits don't try to interact with unique mechanics (because it lacks them? I can't say). It's probably the result of alacrity being ripped off from chrono and made into a generic boon, making chrono a cheap espec and less impactful as a result.

 

Maybe improved alacrity (with or without duration reduction) would've been a more fitting suggestion for a minor trait, but I wouldn't force it. /shrug

 

 

I understand the current iteration has a delay, but 'clunk' and 'more fun' is really subjective.

 

 

Especs are created with a theme and possibly a mechanic in mind. Niches can influence, but do not drive the final result (which is always subject to change/weird balance decisions). Chrono's base design suggests it was originally intended for support, but people made bunkers, bruisers, healers and damage dealers out of it. Mirage went from duelist to a one dodge dumpster (/s), I don't know what happened there.

Yeah, obviously they allow different playstyles, which is great. Sadly they make minor traits like "Shatter skills give vigor, and vigor grants condition damage." which is basically a clear message and incentive of "hey you guys should play condi with this espec".

12 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

But anyway, I digress. My main points were:

1. I don't believe danger time (and chrono in general) needs any straight-up dmg bonuses.
2. I don't think there is enough reason to remove chronophantasma.

 

It's funny how how someone suggested removing Csplit beacaue I'd defend that as well. Perhaps chrono is so broken or messed up, it's due for a complete scrapping and reinvention.

Why you would want that, last they did a Chrono rework they ruined the whole spec and eventually had to revert it. Chrono is in a pretty good state right now, arguably better than it has ever been in terms of balance. I do not understand why you would just roll the dice and trust anet to not kitten it up again.

 

 

Also, most of this discussion is so irrelevant, all we really need to answer is this: do you think Power Chronomancer should get nerfed in PvP on may 11th?

[Noodle Ant.1605]

11 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

1. You made a pretty long list of thing and basically said "but everything else is passive!"
"outside of csplit, chronophantasma, illusionary reversion, shield and wells, everything else is passive
"outside of function gyro, mass momentum, hammer and wells, everything else is passive
"outside of swipe, dash , impaing lotus, bound, staff and physical skills, everything else is passive
"outside of csplit, chronophantasma, illusionary reversion, shield and wells, everything else is passive
"outside of spear of justice, wings of resolve, shield of reversion, longbow and traps, everything else is passive"

 

Also, Chronophantasma can just as well be considered a "passive boost to core abilities": 1. it boosts core abilities (your phantasm skills) and 2. you don't have to activate it i.e. it is passive.

 

Saying that Chronophantasma is "your phantasms, twice" is not an oversimplification, it's quite an accurate description.
2. .

3. Sure, just like alacrity it isn't exclusive to Chrono but is closely associated with it and thematically belongs there. And just as Alacrity has a trait which enhances it in the Chronomancer traitline, so does slow (Danger Time).

4. Not sure what you mean here.
 

 

This would all be arguable if chronos actively sought to use their unique mechanics over core elements. But if a chono build that almost fully imitates core matters so much, how am I supposed to correctly judge if these are even significant or not?

 

A poster told how you use chronophantasma actively. If that's how you treat it, there's a high chance you use time catches up passively. And chronophantasma actively screws with clone delay for its effect which you've mentioned multiple times!

 

11 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Yeah, obviously they allow different playstyles, which is great. Sadly they make minor traits like "Shatter skills give vigor, and vigor grants condition damage." which is basically a clear message and incentive of "hey you guys should play condi with this espec".

 

Shield on chrono didn't stop people from playing it offensively. This trait didn't stop people from playing power on mirage either. People impose Niche Wars 2 on themselves.

 

11 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Why you would want that, last they did a Chrono rework they ruined the whole spec and eventually had to revert it. Chrono is in a pretty good state right now, arguably better than it has ever been in terms of balance. I do not understand why you would just roll the dice and trust anet to not kitten it up again.

 

 

Also, most of this discussion is so irrelevant, all we really need to answer is this: do you think Power Chronomancer should get nerfed in PvP on may 11th?

 

Danger time gets nerfed and this post seems to suggest its the end of chrono as we know it. There is that other build you linked. Maybe power burst isn't actually chrono's 'niche'? I feel like it wouldn't matter anyway because you'd just do core burst if it actually was that bad.

 

I don't care if chrono gets nerfed this way because I don't think chrono, if designed well enough, ever needs to rely on dmg bonuses. There's nothing special about chrono that saves it from random nerfs regardless of my opinion.

[Quadox.7834]

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

This would all be arguable if chronos actively sought to use their unique mechanics over core elements. But if a chono build that almost fully imitates core matters so much, how am I supposed to correctly judge if these are even significant or not?

Idk what you mean here. Yeah most wells except grav well are underpowered atm in PvP, what can I say.

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

A poster told how you use chronophantasma actively. If that's how you treat it, there's a high chance you use time catches up passively. And chronophantasma actively screws with clone delay for its effect which you've mentioned multiple times!

Chronophantasma is activated automatically, passively. In that way it isn't an active; you don't do/press anything to activate it.

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

Shield on chrono didn't stop people from playing it offensively. This trait didn't stop people from playing power on mirage either. People impose Niche Wars 2 on themselves.

Exactly what I said (well except 3rd sentence which is dumb).

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

Danger time gets nerfed and this post seems to suggest its the end of chrono as we know it.

??? It's not "the end of chrono as we know it" lmao, it's a slight, but unecessary, nerf to an underperforming PvP spec (power Chrono).

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

There is that other build you linked.

Did I link a build? I forgot in that case.

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

Maybe power burst isn't actually chrono's 'niche'?

Don't know what you mean by this, sounds irrelevant.

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

I feel like it wouldn't matter anyway because you'd just do core burst if it actually was that bad.

Don't know what you mean by this. Are you saying I would just play core if Chrono gets nerfed, or what? I'm happy to tell you that I've played more Mirage and Core power than power Chrono, although I'm not sure how what I play matters.

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

I don't care if chrono gets nerfed this way because I don't think chrono, if designed well enough, ever needs to rely on dmg bonuses.

Yeah, so you do want pChrono nerfed in PvP, that's a very interesting opinion. I disagree. Glad we made that clear.

On 5/8/2021 at 3:10 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

There's nothing special about chrono that saves it from random nerfs regardless of my opinion.

?? I mean, evidently. Once again I'm not sure what purpose of this statement is or what it is supposed to mean.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

5 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

 

its clear we can agree to disagree on many things here so ill just finalize what i have to say here

 

1. as someone else pointed out, csplit is a pain to balance around because it can double just about anything a mesmer can do, including burst. we come back to the question ‘why should chrono hit any harder on its burst vs core, if it can already do it twice?’ if you dont believe in strict niches then this question is pretty logical, which is why i find the danger time dmg bonus reasonably questionable to have

 

2. im sure they wouldve kept the dmg bonus on danger time for ‘balance’ purposes, but i find anet doesnt like having different-looking skills/traits between game modes unless its a numerical alteration that doesnt include {blank}. to keep the 10% on danger time in pvp, it wouldve had be a minimum 5% in pve; anet wont do {blank}, 0% is a cruel joke and 1-4% looks pathetic. they seem to want to get rid of it completely in pve, but theres no real calculation for this in pvp, hence why i see this is as a hard-to-negotiate ‘random nerf’

 

i dont have anything against power chrono in pvp however, so i did propose reverting danger crit bonus back to 30% (as it was before it got the dmg%) and reducing csplit cd to solidify the ‘core, twice’ advantage, which is more in line to what i (and anyone can disagree) think chrono should have

[Quadox.7834]

17 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

its clear we can agree to disagree on many things here so ill just finalize what i have to say here

 

1. as someone else pointed out, csplit is a pain to balance around because it can double just about anything a mesmer can do, including burst. we come back to the question ‘why should chrono hit any harder on its burst vs core, if it can already do it twice?’ if you dont believe in strict niches then this question is pretty logical, which is why i find the danger time dmg bonus reasonably questionable to have

 

2. im sure they wouldve kept the dmg bonus on danger time for ‘balance’ purposes, but i find anet doesnt like having different-looking skills/traits between game modes unless its a numerical alteration that doesnt include {blank}. to keep the 10% on danger time in pvp, it wouldve had be a minimum 5% in pve; anet wont do {blank}, 0% is a cruel joke and 1-4% looks pathetic. they seem to want to get rid of it completely in pve, but theres no real calculation for this in pvp, hence why i see this is as a hard-to-negotiate ‘random nerf’

 

i dont have anything against power chrono in pvp however, so i did propose reverting danger crit bonus back to 30% (as it was before it got the dmg%) and reducing csplit cd to solidify the ‘core, twice’ advantage, which is more in line to what i (and anyone can disagree) think chrono should have

Upping the crit chance to 25-30% to compensate the removal of crit dmg would be completely fine w/ me.

[Armen.1483]

Chronophantasma in PVP is trash anyway, especially if you play against real people and not bots. Bunker chrono has died a long time ago and now power chrono pvp builds rely on quick burst damage, thus making STM preferable for quickness.Most  phantasms are trash already in PVP, I don't see why it is an issue. I mean I agree that chronophantasma is a bad trait from the design prespective, if we had something else instead of it that increases damage and adds some spice to chrono, yeah why not. In PVP chronophantasma is a big no no for me because there is no real phantasm oriented build for pvp (and for a good reason) and even if there were any I am not sure Chronophantasma would fit in well anyway, just interrupt the brainless phantasms and you are good. People who play chrono and take chronophantasma are free food for me whatever class I play.

[Quadox.7834]

6 hours ago, Armen.1483 said:

Chronophantasma in PVP is trash anyway, especially if you play against real people and not bots. Bunker chrono has died a long time ago and now power chrono pvp builds rely on quick burst damage, thus making STM preferable for quickness.Most  phantasms are trash already in PVP, I don't see why it is an issue.

Yeah It isn't an issue rn in terms of balance, luckily.

Quote

 

I mean I agree that chronophantasma is a bad trait from the design prespective

I agree (though note that this thread is really about the Danger Time nerf, we went off on a stupid tangent).

Quote

, if we had something else instead of it that increases damage and adds some spice to chrono, yeah why not. In PVP chronophantasma is a big no no for me because there is no real phantasm oriented build for pvp (and for a good reason) and even if there were any I am not sure Chronophantasma would fit in well anyway, just interrupt the brainless phantasms and you are good. People who play chrono and take chronophantasma are free food for me whatever class I play.

Condi Chrono is a phantasm oriented build which uses Chronophantasma. Helseth and Drazeh stream it:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABw+trlVwuYYMPWJWuXvNdA-zZoKjMrgeTBXHA

https://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth

https://www.twitch.tv/drazeh

Edited May 10, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Armen.1483]

22 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Yeah It isn't an issue rn in terms of balance, luckily.

I agree (though note that this thread is really about the Danger Time nerf, we went off on a stupid tangent).

Condi Chrono is a phantasm oriented build which uses Chronophantasma. Helseth and Drazeh stream it:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABw+trlVwuYYMPWJWuXvNdA-zZoKjMrgeTBXHA

https://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth

https://www.twitch.tv/drazeh

Thanks for the build, I'll give it a try, haven't seen this one.