Does elementalist get better?

[TheDarkness.6947]

Hello all, new player, first post.

 

I’ve leveled an elementalist up to 50.  Compared to the other professions I’ve taken for a test drive, it seems far squishier and also significantly more challenging to pilot.  I’m fine with all that if there’s a strong upside in exchange for the extra learning curve and getting downed/defeated more frequently.  But I’m not sure I’ve really noticed that upside at level 50. I haven’t noticed it doing significantly more DPS or being more flexible than other professions.  It mostly just seems squishier and harder to play.  This experience is based solely on open world PvE and dungeons.

 

So, assuming I’m not just playing it horribly, which is possible, does it get better at cap?  Are there some strong upsides to elementalist that will be realized at higher levels that I can look forward to?

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Jski.6180]

You get to see big red numbers but i am not sure if that better if the mob has % higher hp lol.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Depends on who you ask, but you might take a look at the open world domination: fire weaver thread a few posts down on this forum. It has plenty of build links, video, and discussion to give you a good idea of one way ele can be played at 80.

 

I was a little short on time with my earlier response.  Editing to provide better info:

 

 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Weaver_-_Condi_Weaver

 

 

It gets better!

Edited May 5, 2021 by AliamRationem.5172

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Elementalist requires a lot more effort to learn but there are builds that make open world content significantly easier. That being said it still is much more difficult to play than the "meta" open world specs like revenant, scourge, mirage.

[Aigleborgne.2981]

From my point of view, it is clearly a hardcore profession assuming you don't spec for those cheesy tank condi builds. 

You need to put a lot of efforts to survive. When my reaper can run in a big pack of mobs in Orr and kill everything in a few seconds. My power weaver will need to prepare and play relatively hard to achieve the same results. 

But I will also enjoy a lot more my weaver for that. You need to prepare, anticipate, and react quiclky. it is closer to mmo I played 20 years ago. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Elem is in a better position than it's been in these years with regards to others classes. We have made some sacrifices too, unfortunately (Staff, arcane skills, healing power amulets...)

It doesn't mean it's perfect, it doesn't mean we're top tier/wanted everywhere with a diversity of builds; but you can find a spot where you want and doing great.

 

But yes, elem is may be the  one with the highest learning curve and requirements in the game.

You are close to Engie with CPM, timing and accurracy, number of skills etc, but much more fragile and so you need to balance your sustain with pinpoint accuracy much more than any other.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Aigleborgne.2981 said:

From my point of view, it is clearly a hardcore profession assuming you don't spec for those cheesy tank condi builds. 

You need to put a lot of efforts to survive. When my reaper can run in a big pack of mobs in Orr and kill everything in a few seconds. My power weaver will need to prepare and play relatively hard to achieve the same results. 

But I will also enjoy a lot more my weaver for that. You need to prepare, anticipate, and react quiclky. it is closer to mmo I played 20 years ago. 

 

Just plain better = cheesy?  I don't think I'd enjoy needing a battle plan to take on trash in Orr.  But that's just me.

[Kako.1930]

Idk how it is now, but when I leveled my ele it felt a LOT better once I hit level 80 lol. Being below level 80 sucks, but once you start to work on new builds and armor sets and get into more challenging content then it's a lot more fun. You can either play an easier build like condi/hybrid and incorporate some heals in there if you feel like you're dying a lot or go full glass and learn how to destroy everything before it can kill you. I like to roam around with a fresh air scepter/focus weaver build in open world and wvw as well as pvp, and switch to a glass staff tempest build when I'm zerging, but I used to enjoy messing around with condi builds, too. 

 

Try experimenting with different weapon and skill combos to get a hang of which rotations net you the best damage output and balance your control out. A lot of the elementalist's high damage comes from using good rotations, so you won't notice big numbers if you're only staying in one attunement and auto attacking, for example. Once you get the hang of it, ele is a load of fun! 🙂

[Razor.6392]

Elementalist was nerfed on purpose so that impeccable play only gets you similar results to other classes played at a somewhat lower level.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Razor.6392

[Cuks.8241]

Yes it definitely gets better. But it is a profession that requires more skill and though about your build than most. Elite specs improve the profession a lot. It is inherently squishy with low hp and low armor but all of that can be compensated by the right gear, build and active dmg avoidance.

Explore different weapons. I think many people initially go for the staff because it is an iconic weapon. But staff is a slow, immobile artillery weapon that have it's uses but is not the best for solo play in open world.

[TheDarkness.6947]

Thanks for the thoughts and even videos, everyone.  Much appreciated.  I guess I was hoping to hear something along the lines of “yes, it’s the most difficult to play and squishiest, but once you really learn it, it’s one of the strongest professions because of it’s [flexibility, adaptability, DPS, some other reason]”. 

 

I think I’m mostly hearing more a theme of: “once you spend the time to really learn it, it can be as good as any other profession.”

 

That’s troubling... I like to research and experiment, but not sure I want to spend lots of time struggling only to be on par with the average build.  That said, the videos from the fire weaver thread do look pretty fun.

Edited May 6, 2021 by TheDarkness.6947
Typo

[Jski.6180]

Once you get to the max min game play of spvp wvw and even end game pve you start to hate that ele is missing key effects.

[TheDarkness.6947]

It sounds like at one time, reaching the skill ceiling for ele was over-rewarded.  So it got over-nerfed, and just left that way?

 

If so that’s a shame.  I’m really drawn to caster types, but there has to be some incentive for learning to manage the squishiness and complexity and it sounds like there’s not with ele from what I’ve been reading.

 

Are there other professions that play like a caster?  I tried necro briefly but it didn’t have the play feel of a caster to me.  Maybe it gets more that way at higher levels or with elite specs.

[HappyHubris.1096]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:59 PM, TheDarkness.6947 said:

Hello all, new player, first post.

 

I’ve leveled an elementalist up to 50.  Compared to the other professions I’ve taken for a test drive, it seems far squishier and also significantly more challenging to pilot.  I’m fine with all that if there’s a strong upside in exchange for the extra learning curve and getting downed/defeated more frequently.  But I’m not sure I’ve really noticed that upside at level 50. I haven’t noticed it doing significantly more DPS or being more flexible than other professions.  It mostly just seems squishier and harder to play.  This experience is based solely on open world PvE and dungeons.

 

So, assuming I’m not just playing it horribly, which is possible, does it get better at cap?  Are there some strong upsides to elementalist that will be realized at higher levels that I can look forward to?

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

I haven't played elementalist at a top level (e.g. T4 CMs and raids), but my thoughts:

1. You're super squishy in damage stats, with fewer invulnerability moves than other squishy classes like Mesmer.
2. You're a wizard, but most of your powerful builds are boring melee moves.
3. Visually, elementalist is a ton of fun.  My number one reason to play it.  Especially anything Air attunement.
4. While the class has four elements, you're likely going to focus on fire/air (power) or fire/earth (condition), dipping into other elements for utility and combos. That utility can be nice to have (for example overloading water for some clutch healing in an encounter where party members are making mistakes), but it's the exception, not the rotation.
5. Open world play is tougher than other classes. For example, I can plow through open world champs on my Holo using berserker gear and barrier/survival skills, while my elementalist really needed a separate survivability set for similar performance.
6. Open world Fire Weaver is pretty strong but horrifically boring in practice.
7. In instanced content, Ele seems to involve jumping through more hoops for not much extra damage (at least for fresh air).  It definitely feels clunky.

I tried to make elementalist my main for the flashy skills and cool theme, but eventually I switched over to my Mesmer for a more fluid style of play.  My elementalist is now an sPvP healer.

[HappyHubris.1096]

29 minutes ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

Are there other professions that play like a caster?  I tried necro briefly but it didn’t have the play feel of a caster to me.  Maybe it gets more that way at higher levels or with elite specs.

I completely understand where you're coming from and also like being a caster in my fantasy games. From my limited experience:

1. Elementalist plays like a caster with Tempest using scepter/focus, though damage is overly reliant on Fresh Air clunkiness.  Weaver unfortunately is a melee battlemage.
2. Necro Reaper plays like a boring melee class, with a powerup mode boring melee class.  Necro Scourge really plays like a caster with a unique mechanic and some caster weapons (At least with condi.  Power is generally melee yet again.)
3. Engineer holo is Yet Another Melee Spec. Engineer scrapper is also a melee build.
4. Mesmer definitely feels like a caster with very "wizard" utilities and reality-warping weapon skills, though the current strongest builds for Power and Condi use melee weapons.  In a few days the condi Mirage staff build is getting heavily buffed, and that is a very caster experience.
5. Firebrand is a caster build, if you like a holy theme and don't mind short-range spellcasting.  I don't have direct experience playing this spec.

For whatever reason, arenanet seems to want to push every class into melee; maybe it's a side effect of designing content around active mitigation.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

8 minutes ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

I completely understand where you're coming from and also like being a caster in my fantasy games. From my limited experience:

1. Elementalist plays like a caster with Tempest using scepter/focus, though damage is overly reliant on Fresh Air clunkiness.  Weaver unfortunately is a melee battlemage.
2. Necro Reaper plays like a boring melee class, with a powerup mode boring melee class.  Necro Scourge really plays like a caster with a unique mechanic and some caster weapons (At least with condi.  Power is generally melee yet again.)
3. Engineer holo is Yet Another Melee Spec. Engineer scrapper is also a melee build.
4. Mesmer definitely feels like a caster with very "wizard" utilities and reality-warping weapon skills, though the current strongest builds for Power and Condi use melee weapons.  In a few days the condi Mirage staff build is getting heavily buffed, and that is a very caster experience.
5. Firebrand is a caster build, if you like a holy theme and don't mind short-range spellcasting.  I don't have direct experience playing this spec.

For whatever reason, arenanet seems to want to push every class into melee; maybe it's a side effect of designing content around active mitigation.

 

Agreed - there really isn't a caster class. It's frustrating that Ranger gets do good damage at range, while also having a pet tanking, but a staff ele has mediocre damage at range while also being much more squishy. Even shortbow Revs are far better at ranged. Scepter ele is decidedly meh, with several kitten skills (Dragons Tooth, Phoenix, Shatterstone). Ele staff has a place in WVW but its of limited value.

 

[mindcircus.1506]

On 5/6/2021 at 3:07 AM, Aigleborgne.2981 said:

From my point of view, it is clearly a hardcore profession assuming you don't spec for those cheesy tank condi builds. 

You need to put a lot of efforts to survive. When my reaper can run in a big pack of mobs in Orr and kill everything in a few seconds. My power weaver will need to prepare and play relatively hard to achieve the same results. 

But I will also enjoy a lot more my weaver for that. You need to prepare, anticipate, and react quiclky. it is closer to mmo I played 20 years ago. 

Imagine being an MMO veteran and calling a build that is more successful than your preferred playstyle "cheesy".

 

Power weaver is a beast against the paper mobs in Orr. You are misrepresenting it's capabilities. It needs less preparation than a condi build. Where Power weaver (in Marauder) falls behind Condi (in Trailblazer) is against champions against everything else it is objectively better.

[TheDarkness.6947]

2 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

I completely understand where you're coming from and also like being a caster in my fantasy games. From my limited experience:

1. Elementalist plays like a caster with Tempest using scepter/focus, though damage is overly reliant on Fresh Air clunkiness.  Weaver unfortunately is a melee battlemage.
2. Necro Reaper plays like a boring melee class, with a powerup mode boring melee class.  Necro Scourge really plays like a caster with a unique mechanic and some caster weapons (At least with condi.  Power is generally melee yet again.)
3. Engineer holo is Yet Another Melee Spec. Engineer scrapper is also a melee build.
4. Mesmer definitely feels like a caster with very "wizard" utilities and reality-warping weapon skills, though the current strongest builds for Power and Condi use melee weapons.  In a few days the condi Mirage staff build is getting heavily buffed, and that is a very caster experience.
5. Firebrand is a caster build, if you like a holy theme and don't mind short-range spellcasting.  I don't have direct experience playing this spec.

For whatever reason, arenanet seems to want to push every class into melee; maybe it's a side effect of designing content around active mitigation.

 

Thanks, this is really helpful.  My preferred play style is one that leverages positioning, movement, CC, and terrain for battlefield control, to be able to take out the targets I want to in the order I want to, with a good mix of DPS and team support.  If I’m going to need to melee for decent performance, might as well run something with heavy armor and high HP.

 

Even though at first glance it seemed like it was the best match, sounds like elementalist in its current state isn’t going to offer the play style I’m after, and I should maybe look at Mesmer, Scourge,  Firebrand, or even possibly Ranger.

[Jski.6180]

4 hours ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

It sounds like at one time, reaching the skill ceiling for ele was over-rewarded.  So it got over-nerfed, and just left that way?

 

If so that’s a shame.  I’m really drawn to caster types, but there has to be some incentive for learning to manage the squishiness and complexity and it sounds like there’s not with ele from what I’ve been reading.

 

Are there other professions that play like a caster?  I tried necro briefly but it didn’t have the play feel of a caster to me.  Maybe it gets more that way at higher levels or with elite specs.

It was overnerfed in pve but it carryed over to spvp and wvw and even with the slit anet never went back to fix it.

 

Every thing in this game is "magic" or better to put it nothing ele dose is "magic" it just simply looks like magic.

[TheDarkness.6947]

26 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

It was overnerfed in pve but it carryed over to spvp and wvw and even with the slit anet never went back to fix it.

 

Every thing in this game is "magic" or better to put it nothing ele dose is "magic" it just simply looks like magic.

 

Anet’s balance release notes seem to indicate they think it’s nearly perfect.  I know, it’s an MMO with PVP even, and so everyone is going to think their preferred profession is getting the short end of the stick.  Just human nature.  On balance though, seems like the player base thinks this prof needs love and from what I’ve played through so far, it feels that way to me too.

 

But I haven’t unlocked elite specs yet, and thus the post.  I might try something else for now and see what happens with elite specs in EoD.

[Jski.6180]

8 minutes ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 

Anet’s balance release notes seem to indicate they think it’s nearly perfect.  I know, it’s an MMO with PVP even, and so everyone is going to think their preferred profession is getting the short end of the stick.  Just human nature.  On balance though, seems like the player base thinks this prof needs love and from what I’ve played through so far, it feels that way to me too.

 

But I haven’t unlocked elite specs yet, and thus the post.  I might try something else for now and see what happens with elite specs in EoD.

They are in a toxic mind set that they are right and are not willing to question it.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

They are in a toxic mind set that they are right and are not willing to question it.

 

You really have no room to talk about toxic mind sets.  You inject your negativity into practically every thread on this forum and some of your key complaints are purely conceptual and have nothing to do with class balance at all. 

 

You don't like the warrior-mage feel of sword and dagger and would prefer staff and scepter see some love and the next e-spec be something more mage-y.  You know what? Me too.  You don't see me stinking up every thread on the forum trying to drive players away from a class that isn't perfect, yet somehow manages to find itself in the meta somewhere most of the time.

[Jski.6180]

6 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

You really have no room to talk about toxic mind sets.  You inject your negativity into practically every thread on this forum and some of your key complaints are purely conceptual and have nothing to do with class balance at all. 

 

You don't like the warrior-mage feel of sword and dagger and would prefer staff and scepter see some love and the next e-spec be something more mage-y.  You know what? Me too.  You don't see me stinking up every thread on the forum trying to drive players away from a class that isn't perfect, yet somehow manages to find itself in the meta somewhere most of the time.

When you say:

We feel that the elementalist has been in a very good place since the July 2020 balance update. Both Tempests and Weavers have effective high damage power and condition damage builds available, while the Tempest is also powerful in a support role.

We weren't completely happy that the top-end power and condition damage elementalist builds have had approximately the same sustained damage, so we're making some minor, targeted reductions to the power builds and increases to condition damage sources to help condition-damage builds really shine on bosses and other hard targets, and to ensure that they aren't left behind by the effect that the torment condition change has for other professions.

 

and every one nearly condemse you to being out of touch with there own game you cant be shocked that older players who have seen this same mind set over and over nerf after nerf and failed update rework after field update reworked it would be a form of denial to say things are going "well." Made only worst if even after hearing out there player base anet still goes after the mostly used classes and skill with out a though for the lesser used classes and skills. Even a nerf to an over used skill shows anet is looking at the effect and are willing to change them. Not nerfing an underused skill is in no way a good thing.

 

Ele is not a mages, warrior is more mages like with unblockables and means of dealing with "magic" though boon strips. If anet intends to push ele into condi dmg then EVERY wepon needs to do real condi dmg and every atument needs to have its own condi dmg type or your going to simply ham string ele to only being able to do dmg 1/2 of the time vs other classes who can do dmg all of the time. Atuments swaping should not be more of a burden to game play  but more of an befit.

 

Even eng kits are more of an full atument then the atuments ele swaps it self as well as being massively stronger then any conja wepon whom have massive cd and problem in effect (free states means nothing).

 

There is NOTHING for ele the game is over for the class after this update its going to just get worst like it got worst in the last update like it got worst in the update before like it got worst in the update before that. You can see a long line of nerf after nerf after nerf. And anet things ele in a good places its a joke made worst but a hand full of ele players who are effectively apologizing and being less then truthful about the class to new ppl.

 

Anet hates ele they hate the ele players and they are going to keep nerfing the ele class. There is no hope here it dose not get better.

[HappyHubris.1096]

3 hours ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 

Anet’s balance release notes seem to indicate they think it’s nearly perfect.  I know, it’s an MMO with PVP even, and so everyone is going to think their preferred profession is getting the short end of the stick.  Just human nature.  On balance though, seems like the player base thinks this prof needs love and from what I’ve played through so far, it feels that way to me too.

 

But I haven’t unlocked elite specs yet, and thus the post.  I might try something else for now and see what happens with elite specs in EoD.

I would be far more worried about playstyle compatibility and general viability than being the "best."  Doing 15% higher damage is less likely to keep you happy than thoroughly enjoying the mechanics and aesthetics of your class.  Remember that players like to complain about T4 CM fractals and tough raids that a vanishingly small part of the playerbase ever even attempts.  To do raids and high end fractals you will likely be expected to use a playstyle that fits your role (e.g. no ranged staff DPS in fractals), but player learning curves are likely to constrain players before class selection. Also, most GW2 content is tuned for absolutely terrible DPS, so it's not like you'll be wiping on T2 fractals or failing due to your class selection.  Remember, every MMO class feels like it's being shortchanged (or misunderstood, if they're currently in the lead).

 

I love the elementalist aesthetics and theme but found that the mechanics and performance weren't as smooth as other classes I tried.  That said, it wouldn't hurt to try either weaver or tempest to see if they offer some secret sauce.  You can do a few HoT HP chains in an hour and get the points to fill in an elite spec.

[Infusion.7149]

Actually you used to be able to run staff weaver in fractals as long as people were casual. Now after lava font nerfs and meteor shower nerfs, not so much. Power weaver is still usable but with bad instabilities it is really stressful. I've seen some power fresh air tempests with scepter +warhorn or dagger+warhorn but if it's not trash mobs you're cleaving out then the damage isn't all that great. The variant on discretize uses water traitline so it has decent sustain when you need it (via heal on dodge and attuning to water + soothing mist if dipping into water for shatterstone or cone of cold).