Scrapper needs access to AoE fury if they want qscrapper to be a thing in PvE

[cat.8975]

Currently our only real options are rifle turret with the trait and pack runes. Rifle turret is out of the question if we need 2 gyros + elixir gun (not to mention how clunky that turret can be). Pack runes don't even maintain fury at 100% BD.

If you want quick/heal scrapper to be a viable replacement for quick/heal firebrand, it needs to bring some fury.

[Infusion.7149]

I think the patch was mainly oriented to 10 man content, so fury would be provided by druid, boon herald, and/or power DH/core guard? That's assuming none of the DPS classes have any self-provided fury.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

You sure want a lot of power creep support for an non support class.

[cat.8975]

By giving it access to aoe quickness, they are turning it into a support spec. If they want it to be a viable alternative to the existing supports, it'll just need a tiny extra push.

[rrusse.7058]

5 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

By giving it access to aoe quickness, they are turning it into a support spec. If they want it to be a viable alternative to the existing supports, it'll just need a tiny extra push.

We have to remember that these changes are being made while Arenanet is considering the next elite specializations. We don't know what, if any support specs will be added to the game. Is the intention for Scrapper to be a support spec? Players rolling it shows a clear interest in having Engineer have a support option.

 

What if the next specialization offers a lot of AoE boon options for group play? If it offers up too much then what is the point of Scrapper? It would just get overshadowed again if one or the other can do it all.

[cat.8975]

From the update post:

 

Quote

It’s been a long while since our last major balance patch. In this update, we’re preparing for Cantha by cleaning up longstanding frustrations with boons and conditions, as well as by positioning existing builds as new potential sources of alacrity and quickness in group play.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

Toss elixir B: That's your aoe fury, stab, might, resolve, swiftness. Almost all those boons have a 10s base duration, traited it's already 14s, CD 20s (16s with alacrity).

 

I mean... Between this and the traited turrets, do you really need more options? What else could you want? Even if they give you fury on healing mist you'll probably complain that you can't maintain it... Or maybe you'd want HGH to grant fury instead of might? That could work (It would be a big nerf for those who use elixir B, thought).

[wasss.1208]

31 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Toss elixir B: That's your aoe fury, stab, might, resolve, swiftness. Almost all those boons have a 10s base duration, traited it's already 14s, CD 20s (16s with alacrity).

Toss Elixir B gives Stability, and of the other boons randomly. It is anything, but reliable.
If someone wants perma Fury, they'll have to go Experimental Turrets + Rifle Turret.

[cat.8975]

3 minutes ago, wasss.1208 said:

Toss Elixir B gives Stability, and of the other boons randomly. It is anything, but reliable.
If someone wants perma Fury, they'll have to go Experimental Turrets + Rifle Turret.

And that right there is the problem. You'll need a minimum of two utility gyros, so you'd have to give up elixir gun for the turret. Elixir gun is more or less required on heal engi.
 

They can't change HGH away from might either, as that makes up a decent chunk of your output. Part of me wonders if giving Super Elixir 1s fury pulses would be broken in WvW or PvP, as it would be a decent way to squeeze it into the PvE scene. Perhaps one of the medkit skills? A mortar skill? I'm not sure. The turret trait is definitely a dead end though.

[cat.8975]

46 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Toss elixir B: That's your aoe fury, stab, might, resolve, swiftness. Almost all those boons have a 10s base duration, traited it's already 14s, CD 20s (16s with alacrity).

 

I mean... Between this and the traited turrets, do you really need more options? What else could you want? Even if they give you fury on healing mist you'll probably complain that you can't maintain it... Or maybe you'd want HGH to grant fury instead of might? That could work (It would be a big nerf for those who use elixir B, thought).

Please read the wiki before commenting.

[Dadnir.5038]

20 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

Please read the wiki before commenting.

 

And please consider that professions aren't entitled to provide the exact same support.

 

Afterall, scrapper will provide both superspeed and quickness where guardian will provide fury and quickness. If you have the right to complain that scrapper lack fury won't the guardian have the right to complain that they lack superspeed?

 

You can already add fury by making sacrifices while guardian can't even dream to add superspeed. I can understand that you're not excited by the fact that you grant superspeed and would be happier if you were to provide fury but, well, you can play guardian if you want to be happy.

 

Most important is that in a group you are not expected to provide support that you don't have and that providing fury isn't difficult for many profession including: revenant (herald), ranger, thief, warrior and even elementalist (tempest) if he is willing to make some sacrifices. And most of those would kill to have this ability to provide quickness while you're there complaining that what you gain is not enough.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[cat.8975]

6 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Afterall, scrapper will provide both superspeed and quickness where guardian will provide fury and quickness. If you have the right to complain that scrapper lack fury won't the guardian have the right to complain that they lack superspeed?

 

Firebrand has so much more than just fury and quickness. The idea here is to create a viable alternative to Firebrand. To introduce some variety into the current meta where you exclusively run Firebrand. Even IF they give Scrapper fury, people will still be hesitant to run it due to the clunky way it provides might (roughly half of it comes from blasting a fire field), along with the lack of the other utility a Firebrand can bring (reflects, aegis, multiple aoe pulls, etc.).
 

Quote

Most important is that in a group you are not expected to provide support that you don't have and that providing fury isn't difficult for many profession including: revenant (herald), ranger, thief, warrior and even elementalist (tempest) if he is willing to make some sacrifices. And most of those would kill to have this ability to provide quickness while you're there complaining that what you gain is not enough.

This idea of having another class provide fury is fundamentally flawed. They've tried to do this sort of thing in the past, and the community almost always resorts to forcing the same one or two classes to pick up all of the slack. You're never going to see an LFG asking for someone to bring fury, as that sort of ask just ends up being too niche.

Edited May 6, 2021 by cat.8975

[wasss.1208]

51 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

And that right there is the problem. You'll need a minimum of two utility gyros, so you'd have to give up elixir gun for the turret. Elixir gun is more or less required on heal engi.

You have to give up Elixie Gun, if you want to provide Fury. You make a "Healing output+utility -> Fury" trade. 

 

 

53 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

They can't change HGH away from might either, as that makes up a decent chunk of your output.

(assuming that output=might output)
As far as I know, you can't realisticly keep up 25 might on a party anyways, so you'll need an another support to do that.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

And please consider that professions aren't entitled to provide the exact same support.

 

Afterall, scrapper will provide both superspeed and quickness where guardian will provide fury and quickness. If you have the right to complain that scrapper lack fury won't the guardian have the right to complain that they lack superspeed?

*Insert Thank You! GIF here.*

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

IMO the "priority" would be to give to scrapper better superspeed/quickness access.

Like a kit or a gyro pulsing Superspeed, or make the quickness last initially 3sec in Pve instead of 2sec. It would help to free an utility slot for a turret or elixir (and so fury, mights...), help gyro to be on request and not part of rotation, etc.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[cat.8975]

1 minute ago, wasss.1208 said:

You have to give up Elixie Gun, if you want to provide Fury. You make a "Healing output+utility -> Fury" trade. 

 

That'd be fine if it wasn't so extreme. Firebrand gives up mace auto heals to maintain fury. Scrapper gives up half of their regen upkeep, 3 elixir skills, a blast finisher, a VERY strong aoe heal, an aoe condi cleanse, etc. all to get a trash turret that can be destroyed by the boss.

 

3 minutes ago, wasss.1208 said:

As far as I know, you can't realisticly keep up 25 might on a party anyways, so you'll need an another support to do that.

 

HGH with the 4 elixir skills (egun toolbelt, egun 4, egun 5, mortar 5) plus blasting the Blast Gyro's fire field (shield 4, egun 4, medkit 5, blast gyro) will maintain 25 might if you have enough boon duration.

[wasss.1208]

12 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

19 minutes ago, wasss.1208 said:

You have to give up Elixie Gun, if you want to provide Fury. You make a "Healing output+utility -> Fury" trade. 

 

That'd be fine if it wasn't so extreme. Firebrand gives up mace auto heals to maintain fury. Scrapper gives up half of their regen upkeep, 3 elixir skills, a blast finisher, a VERY strong aoe heal, an aoe condi cleanse, etc. all to get a trash turret that can be destroyed by the boss.

 

Yes, it is a bad tradeoff, but the option is still there. Firebrand axe is a cleverly designed weapon. Without it, the spec lacks CC and Fury. Scrapper sadly feels like a bunch of ideas stuffed together, which gets a rework every year. (This was different in the past year, the current iteration felt like it had a central idea behind it... which got trashed now.)
As for the lost skills (in a raid environment): Regen uptime gets covered by others. You have condi cleanse on Med-Kit. It isn't much, but you still have it. On condi heavy fights you can replace Bulwark to Purge Gyro. 3 elixir skills doesn't matter, if you have an another support covering Might. The VERY strong AoE heal is the just of the trade-off you are doing, for your Fury. The blast finisher usually gives you a random effect. It can still be nice, like at Frost Aura can mitigate a lot of damage.

If you look around for other trade-offs: Druid has to choose between GotL, and having their former healing power. This seems like a no-brainer choose, but if someone has Might covered, Lingering Light Druid is an extremely potent healer.
Tempest has to choose between Fury (air), condi cleanse (Fire), Prot (Earth). They also have to choose between beign a hardcarry ressmachine (Staff, Arcane), or the standard boonsharer (Warhorn). (In the past, they also had to choose between 10 people Shouts, vs. additional boon support for 5.)

 

 

10 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

17 minutes ago, wasss.1208 said:

As far as I know, you can't realisticly keep up 25 might on a party anyways, so you'll need an another support to do that.

 

HGH with the 4 elixir skills (egun toolbelt, egun 4, egun 5, mortar 5) plus blasting the Blast Gyro's fire field (shield 4, egun 4, medkit 5, blast gyro) will maintain 25 might if you have enough boon duration.

That is why I wrote "realisticly". You can't rely on blasting fields in a raiding setting.

 

 

Also, there is a factor that a lot of people forget here, which is perma superspeed. Since we didn't have much of this in the past, we don't know how useful it is in a raid. It might be totally useless, it might be soo useful, that pugs in the future will frown upon the lack of it.

[cat.8975]

Superspeed will always remain a tool for the gimmick "fights' like river. It'll never be very useful for normal encounters.

Quote

Regen uptime gets covered by others. 

That's not how regen works, unless you're talking about druid's 10 man regen. If someone else in your subgroup is providing their own regen, it's going to be significantly weaker than what the dedicated healer can put out.

Back to the main topic though, my primary concern about fury is targeted at 5 man content. Raids are pretty easy to build a comp for, but it'd be nice if scrapper could see some play in fractals too. Why do we want firebrand to be the ONLY viable quickness source in fotm?

Edited May 6, 2021 by cat.8975

[wasss.1208]

1 hour ago, cat.8975 said:

Why do we want firebrand to be the ONLY viable quickness source in fotm?

Because FB is not only quickness. It can trait to give 25 might, crazy CC with Sanctuary, Quickness, Fury, Stability, and the most important part: Aegis. in FotM majority of the attacks can be blocked by Aegis, this makes even non support Firebrands amazing utilitywise. Healbrand goes even beyond these, giving high Protection uptime as well, making majority of the runs amazingly smooth.
Firebrand also has a pull on Axe, which Engineer can only access through Holosmith -> Hard Light Arena.
Firebrand at the moment is perfectly fit to do everything, that a fractal team needs, except for Alacrity, so unless you buff the hell out of the other supports, or shave FBs utility, FB will remain the go-to pick.

To answer the question:
For Engineer to get up to this level, you either have to bloat their core lines (which I'm not completely against), or change Scrapper even further. If you look around the Engineer subforum, you can see that even this small changes upset a lot of people. 
This also doesn't mean that other supports aren't viable. I did run fractals with Chronos, and I will run fractals with Qscrappers. They are viable, just not the best in slot.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

@cat.8975

 

I sugested to add 2s of fury to HGH trait here : 

 

That way with 100% boon dura you got 4 skills to apply fury, means16s of fury with low cd

And if not inaf Vital burst will culd get aoe fury too

 

https://i.imgur.com/eD8swMg.png

 

https://i.imgur.com/t14AV5t.png

Edited May 6, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

Currently our only real options are rifle turret with the trait and pack runes. Rifle turret is out of the question if we need 2 gyros + elixir gun (not to mention how clunky that turret can be). Pack runes don't even maintain fury at 100% BD.

If you want quick/heal scrapper to be a viable replacement for quick/heal firebrand, it needs to bring some fury.

Except Anet doesn't 'want' to tell anyone how to play in the first place ... so AoE fury on Qscrapper isn't needed. 

[Dadnir.5038]

5 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

Firebrand has so much more than just fury and quickness. The idea here is to create a viable alternative to Firebrand. To introduce some variety into the current meta where you exclusively run Firebrand. Even IF they give Scrapper fury, people will still be hesitant to run it due to the clunky way it provides might (roughly half of it comes from blasting a fire field), along with the lack of the other utility a Firebrand can bring (reflects, aegis, multiple aoe pulls, etc.).
 

This idea of having another class provide fury is fundamentally flawed. They've tried to do this sort of thing in the past, and the community almost always resorts to forcing the same one or two classes to pick up all of the slack. You're never going to see an LFG asking for someone to bring fury, as that sort of ask just ends up being too niche.

 

Firebrand is so much more than fury and quickness but scrapper is also so much more than superspeed and quickness. Scrapper, will/can be superspeed, quickness, swiftness/vigor/regen (infusion bomb), stealth, fire field (Blast gyro, which is a must due to bypass coating ), stability (toss elixir B), Might can be provided by HGH, turret trait can allow perma fury/60% uptime resolve/60% uptime protection, without forgeting hard CC, soft CC, the condi cleanse/convertion... etc.

 

The idea of having another profession giving fury isn't more fondamentally flawed than the idea that another profession providing alacrity. In the past players were barely giving there chance to the combo FB/Revenant because they were just addict to the combo druid/chrono. Can the revenant grant fury on top of Alacrity? Yes! Does this mean scrapper can replace FB in the FB/revenant combo? Yes!

[Jski.6180]

10 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

By giving it access to aoe quickness, they are turning it into a support spec. If they want it to be a viable alternative to the existing supports, it'll just need a tiny extra push.

Eng scraper and holo all once has aoe quickness and they still have aoe fury but its all from the eng core much like scraper healing and most of its support is from eng core! Scraper only had super speed as was more tankly that why ppl used it for support most of the time over core eng (at one point holo was a better support chose too). This was all in wvw and spvp not pve.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_B

 

There your fury.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Firebrand is so much more than fury and quickness but scrapper is also so much more than superspeed and quickness. Scrapper, will/can be superspeed, quickness, swiftness/vigor/regen (infusion bomb), stealth, fire field (Blast gyro, which is a must due to bypass coating ), stability (toss elixir B), Might can be provided by HGH, turret trait can allow perma fury/60% uptime resolve/60% uptime protection, without forgeting hard CC, soft CC, the condi cleanse/convertion... etc.

 

The idea of having another profession giving fury isn't more fondamentally flawed than the idea that another profession providing alacrity. In the past players were barely giving there chance to the combo FB/Revenant because they were just addict to the combo druid/chrono. Can the revenant grant fury on top of Alacrity? Yes! Does this mean scrapper can replace FB in the FB/revenant combo? Yes!

No it can't replace FB in its current proposed form. Party fury, might stacking (only via Elixir on engineers), protection, are all lacking and it would not change even if 10 man.

You would need to run med kit (for Bandage self) + 2 gyros and use them all off cooldown. Also the thread is titled "in PVE" , so the thing about superspeed is it generally isn't requested (and if you want perma-superspeed on a NPC then holo does it better: see the Lucky Noobs holo build used for River of Souls), blasting stealth gyro isn't going to be a thing if you're in combat (only for fractal skips and not much else), and neither is heavy deep condi clear (cleansing field/elixir gun/purge gyro). Ultimately the only thing that sets it apart is function gyro, which if used on downed targets means your quickness uptime is hit as well.

If a condi stack isn't especially deep you can just as well run firebrands (mantra of lore is 12s base cooldown and removes 2 condis ; Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery removes 3 deep) , tempests (which don't have alac/quickness so generally not in PVE), or druids. Even mesmers, which aren't used in a heal role have removal 3 deep (Power cleanse) and the same goes for tactics warriors (Shake it Off). Keep in mind people are suggesting that Purging Flames will be used on CFB after patch with Virtues instead of Zeal.

@ Jski.6180
Elixir B is self provided fury and it won't even have 100% uptime with 100% boon duration. It is not party fury, which is what the topic is about. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Noah Salazar.5430]

@Jski.6180

Quote

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_B

 

There your fury.

 

it's personal fury, we need Aoe fury for 5ppl

Problem is if you take rifle turret, you need kick off Elixir gun, and kicking off Elixir gun your losing 5condi cleanses, blast finisher,super elixir also 6might from HGH trait

Also rifle turret is kinda eggy to use 

 

thay wuld need make "toss elixir B" to give fury all time insted 1/4 chance then it wuld not be a problem, as you wuld replace it with bulwark gyro cuz on top of fury you wuld give stab

 

But then your losing 1 proc of quickness

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

@Jski.6180

 

it's personal fury, we need Aoe fury for 5ppl

Problem is if you take rifle turret, you need kick off Elixir gun, and kicking off Elixir gun your losing 5condi cleanses, blast finisher,super elixir also 6might from HGH trait

Also rifle turret is kinda eggy to use 

 

thay wuld need make "toss elixir B" to give fury all time insted 1/4 chance then it wuld not be a problem, as you wuld replace it with bulwark gyro cuz on top of fury you wuld give stab

 

But then your losing 1 proc of quickness

 

Why do you need pema fury though and why do you need that much condi clear?