Scrapper needs access to AoE fury if they want qscrapper to be a thing in PvE

[Dadnir.5038]

15 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No it can't replace FB in its current proposed form. Party fury, might stacking (only via Elixir on engineers), protection, are all lacking and it would not change even if 10 man.

You would need to run med kit (for Bandage self) + 2 gyros and use them all off cooldown. Also the thread is titled "in PVE" , so the thing about superspeed is it generally isn't requested (and if you want perma-superspeed on a NPC then holo does it better: see the Lucky Noobs holo build used for River of Souls), blasting stealth gyro isn't going to be a thing if you're in combat (only for fractal skips and not much else), and neither is heavy deep condi clear (cleansing field/elixir gun/purge gyro). Ultimately the only thing that sets it apart is function gyro, which if used on downed targets means your quickness uptime is hit as well.

If a condi stack isn't especially deep you can just as well run firebrands (mantra of lore is 12s base cooldown and removes 2 condis ; Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery removes 3 deep) , tempests (which don't have alac/quickness so generally not in PVE), or druids. Even mesmers, which aren't used in a heal role have removal 3 deep (Power cleanse) and the same goes for tactics warriors (Shake it Off). Keep in mind people are suggesting that Purging Flames will be used on CFB after patch with Virtues instead of Zeal.
 

 

I think the problem that you lot have is that you want to put the futur scrapper within the current meta. You also want it to do everything the FB do yet forget that the scrapper do many thing that the FB don't. Your answer clearly show that you do not understand the essence of what I wrote and you focused on your prejudices about raids. There is no need to focus on whether there is a need for cleansing that the guardian couldn't do, there is no need to be concerned whether superspeed or stealth is needed. You just have to see the obvious: The scrapper do many thing that the FB don't and pushing him in a spot where he does as much as the FB will just break balance. Right now, with a bit of sacrifice, the scrapper will be able to provide both fury and quickness, whether it's role within the group/raid will be the exact same as the FB role is at the moment is of no concern.

 

Just a friendly reminder that a meta group in PvE make full use of all 5-10 players abilities to achieve optimal result. If a profession reliably provide a boon deemed necessary then other professions' within the group will be tweaked in the most optimal way to address what this profession can't provide in order to reach the most effective groupe composition.

[cat.8975]

You're joking, right? Firebrand has access to so much more useful utility for PvE that they're not even comparable at the moment. Superspeed, stealth, and aoe blinds will only get you so far in PvE. When you compare it to the utility available via the tomes, mantras, consecrations, etc. it's not even a contest.

I can guarantee that FB would remain the meta quickness pick in PvE even if Scrapper had perma aoe quickness and fury. If you think otherwise, you're either new to the game or you haven't been paying attention to why each PvE meta is the way it is.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

Why do you need pema fury though 

85-90% is ok too, but if you have less than that dps in your team will lose dmg, and if you your team will lose dmg, heal scrap will not be taken to a team, same reason you can cqfb+heal scrapper, but it rare happyn as ppl prefer hfb and full dps for that 15-25% more dps on 1 person

Quote

why do you need that much condi clear?

 

becase it's your only condi clease after Cleansing field, and after you will be forced to take blast gyro to upkeap Quickness (as usualy you culd have 1 untility slot free for Purge gyro or turret for fury)

 

You will need that adional condi clease on some bosses in raid, same as in fractal, and drms (wher your bombarder with chill or fire condi)

 

Not only that but Acid bomb is blast finisher to your blast gyro, healing mist is your 50% regen uptime, and Super elixir is your adional heal skill same as lighting field, on top of that HGH trait gives 2might to evry that skill as thay count as Elixir, that are importent to upkeep 25might in cause you play fractal party and you don't have druid :/

 

 

@Jski.6180

 

Hope now you understend importence of Elixir gun 

And no you can't replace bulwark gyro (expect for toss elixir B) or you will not have a aoe stability for team what will be deadly in pve,wvw,and also fractals and cm drms on top of it

Edited May 7, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Dadnir.5038]

4 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

You're joking, right? Firebrand has access to so much more useful utility for PvE that they're not even comparable at the moment. Superspeed, stealth, and aoe blinds will only get you so far in PvE. When you compare it to the utility available via the tomes, mantras, consecrations, etc. it's not even a contest.

I can guarantee that FB would remain the meta quickness pick in PvE even if Scrapper had perma aoe quickness and fury. If you think otherwise, you're either new to the game or you haven't been paying attention to why each PvE meta is the way it is.

 

How funny, someone with 142 posts calling me "new". I started playing the game 2 weeks after the game was released (and I'm not talking about the realease of the x-pacs).

 

Look, don't believe it if you want, however FB had very similar arguments to yours concerning chrono at PoF release. Despite that FB ended up worming it's way in this position that you believe unreachable. Also FB mantras take a nerf in this patch while consecration don't do much apart from stopping/reflecting projectile which scrapper can do just right.

 

There is no point in trying to see who got "more", the meta will adapt to the needs like it always does. And Quickness is the boons that is the most "needed" by PvE group.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

There is no point in trying to see who got "more", the meta will adapt to the needs like it always does. And Quickness is the boons that is the most "needed" by PvE group.

@Dadnir.5038

Thats true, but Scrapper will have problems after taking Quickness, as 1 trait is bit too opresive as your forced to take evrythink you can to upkeep Quickness, and becase of it 1 of your utylity skills will be perm locked by blast gyro

 

So you will need Sacrifice Aoe Stab from bulwark gyro/toss elixir B

 

Or you will need Sacrifice Elixir Gun, his might from hgc trait, 5 condi cleases, lighting field, 50% regen uptime, to take fury for a team

 

it culd be bit easier if thay wuld change trait "Expert Examination" for https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Recovery_Matrix and add 3s of Quickness (and insted of barrier maybe somethink else) 

 

But backing to Quickness even with that 5skills to buff quickness = 5*4=20s while your skills have 25-35s cd and one of that skills is Function gyro that is used to ress ppl

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PezAo6JlNwcYesGWKeyTftaA-zRJYqRDfRkeB47s0+mF-e

 

 if thay wuld add 2s pvp/3s pve fury to hgc trait at last

 

That way you wuld not need to take riffle turret and you wuld save Elixir gun

 

As 4skills*(2or3s*100%boond dura) = 16or24s of fury

 

 

Thats why ppl that main Scrapper for long and understed that class bit more are in despeir atm as thay will need stay full heal, and take cqfb as support anyway (as he will provide Quickness+fury)

 

And HFB no need any support, so ppl will chose hfb and 1dps insted

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

85-90% is ok too, but if you have less than that dps in your team will lose dmg, and if you your team will lose dmg, heal scrap will not be taken to a team, same reason you can cqfb+heal scrapper, but it rare happyn as ppl prefer hfb and full dps for that 15-25% more dps on 1 person

 

becase it's your only condi clease after Cleansing field, and after you will be forced to take blast gyro to upkeap Quickness (as usualy you culd have 1 untility slot free for Purge gyro or turret for fury)

 

You will need that adional condi clease on some bosses in raid, same as in fractal, and drms (wher your bombarder with chill or fire condi)

 

Not only that but Acid bomb is blast finisher to your blast gyro, healing mist is your 50% regen uptime, and Super elixir is your adional heal skill same as lighting field, on top of that HGH trait gives 2might to evry that skill as thay count as Elixir, that are importent to upkeep 25might in cause you play fractal party and you don't have druid 😕

 

 

@Jski.6180

 

Hope now you understend importence of Elixir gun 

And no you can't replace bulwark gyro (expect for toss elixir B) or you will not have a aoe stability for team what will be deadly in pve,wvw,and also fractals and cm drms on top of it

But pve is more of an set pic combat where you have down times of vulnerability of the boss and or mobs and over all the amount of condis applied to you in pve is nothing vs a 5 sec duration 20 sec cd skill. Unless your looking to balance scraper in wvw where you do need more condi clears in any other game type.

 

"Dont you know" that elixir gun is not as importan in pve support as giving out boons and the only healing you need to do is from your med kit from the eng class not scraper.

[cat.8975]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

How funny, someone with 142 posts calling me "new". I started playing the game 2 weeks after the game was released (and I'm not talking about the realease of the x-pacs).

 

Look, don't believe it if you want, however FB had very similar arguments to yours concerning chrono at PoF release. Despite that FB ended up worming it's way in this position that you believe unreachable. Also FB mantras take a nerf in this patch while consecration don't do much apart from stopping/reflecting projectile which scrapper can do just right.

 

There is no point in trying to see who got "more", the meta will adapt to the needs like it always does. And Quickness is the boons that is the most "needed" by PvE group.

Forum post count is meaningless. If you want to talk receipts, I've helped work on figuring out some of the finer details of the combat formulas (fun stuff like phantasm weapon strength, util/trait/sigil/rune proc ws, fixing a lot of incorrect skill coefficients, how % stat conversions work, finding various bugs, etc). Have you contributed to the wiki or any of the theorycrafting sites/discords at all?
 

The only reason FB "wormed" its way into the current meta is because ANet had to keep buffing it while simultaneously nerfing chrono, multiple times. Even when FB+Alacren was technically playable (and even better than traditional chrono comps), people still didn't bother, because of reasons such as "why run two classes when you could just run one".

If they want people to run qscrapper, it either needs a little more role compression, or the dps of an offensive qscrapper needs to be pushed up by ~20-30%. People will currently just see it as worse versions of qfb or hb with lower numbers and less effective PvE utility. Arguably, they should overtune scrapper a bit for a balance cycle to get people playing it, and then reign it in to fb levels a couple months later.

[cat.8975]

5 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

But pve is more of an set pic combat where you have down times of vulnerability of the boss and or mobs and over all the amount of condis applied to you in pve is nothing vs a 5 sec duration 20 sec cd skill. Unless your looking to balance scraper in wvw where you do need more condi clears in any other game type.

 

"Dont you know" that elixir gun is not as importan in pve support as giving out boons and the only healing you need to do is from your med kit from the eng class not scraper.

The condi cleanse is arguably the least important bit of the EGun for PvE, don't focus on it so much. If you look at the numbers behind heal engi, you'll find that the toolbelt skill is one of your two primary sources of AoE regen, and that you can't maintain regen without it. Medkit 5 is only 40%–80% regen uptime, depending on boon duration (and assuming you're casting it off cooldown with alacrity).

On top of regen, you also have 3 elixir skills (might from HGH), a blast finisher (might in a fire field), and an emergency heal (this one is maybe a little overkill when grouped with medkit 4 and bandage self).

While fumigate is ok, you should look at the rest of the kit too.

[Jski.6180]

8 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

The condi cleanse is arguably the least important bit of the EGun for PvE, don't focus on it so much. If you look at the numbers behind heal engi, you'll find that the toolbelt skill is one of your two primary sources of AoE regen, and that you can't maintain regen without it. Medkit 5 is only 40%–80% regen uptime, depending on boon duration (and assuming you're casting it off cooldown with alacrity).

On top of regen, you also have 3 elixir skills (might from HGH), a blast finisher (might in a fire field), and an emergency heal (this one is maybe a little overkill when grouped with medkit 4 and bandage self).

While fumigate is ok, you should look at the rest of the kit too.

If you just getting it for the tool belt reg your wasting a uititly space. The reg from med kit should be more then enofe for your team.

Med kit is just soo powerful that you dont even need blast healing your better off spamming 1 and with the quirkiness it will heal faster.

 

I get the feeling your asking for power creep on the level of FB and that just not going to happen it is anet favorite son (till the next gurd elite spec happen with DH).

 

Keep in mind Scraper is only an "support" because of core eng so your just not going to get the same level of support buffs for scraper as you would say for eng core or even FB.

[cat.8975]

2 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

If you just getting it for the tool belt reg your wasting a uititly space. The reg from med kit should be more then enofe for your team.

Med kit is just soo powerful that you dont even need blast healing your better off spamming 1 and with the quirkiness it will heal faster.

 

I get the feeling your asking for power creep on the level of FB and that just not going to happen it is anet favorite son (till the next gurd elite spec happen with DH).

 

Keep in mind Scraper is only an "support" because of core eng so your just not going to get the same level of support buffs for scraper as you would say for eng core or even FB.

Did you ignore the rest of my post talking about the other things it provides?

 

Anyway, regen is important for keeping your party above health thresholds for conditional stuff like the Scholar rune bonus. In raids, it helps give you time to cast other things (might, quickness), or some room to heal the other subgroup with medkit.

And yes, I am asking for a bit of powercreep to an underpowered support spec, because I know how this community functions. Even if it's viable, it wont be run until it's "good".

[Jski.6180]

36 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

Did you ignore the rest of my post talking about the other things it provides?

 

Anyway, regen is important for keeping your party above health thresholds for conditional stuff like the Scholar rune bonus. In raids, it helps give you time to cast other things (might, quickness), or some room to heal the other subgroup with medkit.

And yes, I am asking for a bit of powercreep to an underpowered support spec, because I know how this community functions. Even if it's viable, it wont be run until it's "good".

There are significant problem with regen as a boon that needs to be fixed. Eng med kit has the ability to keep ppl hp above that threshold with next to no down time due to how kits have no cd from swap.

 

Scraper not an support spec. its a tankly dps spec that use eng support skills.

[cat.8975]

7 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

There are significant problem with regen as a boon that needs to be fixed. Eng med kit has the ability to keep ppl hp above that threshold with next to no down time due to how kits have no cd from swap.

 

Scraper not an support spec. its a tankly dps spec that use eng support skills.

It's possible for a single spec to have multiple builds and playstyles. Take Firebrand, for example. You can play it for support, pure damage, or a hybrid of the two. Scrapper could be the same thing.

[Jski.6180]

Just now, cat.8975 said:

It's possible for a single spec to have multiple builds and playstyles. Take Firebrand, for example. You can play it for support, pure damage, or a hybrid of the two. Scrapper could be the same thing.

I guess but when you using core classes effect so exclusively on an elite spec your often using that elite spec just because its a power creep of the core class. Gurd core vs FB is a good example of this on some level but FB has its own support healing effects out side of what gurd can do. Scraper is missing things maybe if they removed all of the dmg effect on scraper as well as getting barrier when it dose dmg. Maybe make hammer do a lot less dmg and less tanklyness but move to more boon support and even a healing field.

 

Till you make these massive changes to the scraper class its hard to justfie adding more support to scraper with out simply adding in more power creep.

 

I still stay just make eng support skills stronger and treat kits like holo a 6 sec cd when it swaps out of its holo form (for scraper it would just be a blunt 6 sec cd after swaping out of an kit.)

[Nephalem.8921]

12 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I guess but when you using core classes effect so exclusively on an elite spec your often using that elite spec just because its a power creep of the core class. Gurd core vs FB is a good example of this on some level but FB has its own support healing effects out side of what gurd can do. Scraper is missing things maybe if they removed all of the dmg effect on scraper as well as getting barrier when it dose dmg. Maybe make hammer do a lot less dmg and less tanklyness but move to more boon support and even a healing field.

 

Till you make these massive changes to the scraper class its hard to justfie adding more support to scraper with out simply adding in more power creep.

 

I still stay just make eng support skills stronger and treat kits like holo a 6 sec cd when it swaps out of its holo form (for scraper it would just be a blunt 6 sec cd after swaping out of an kit.)

What do you even mean with all of that? Do you play endgame pve? Nobody plays scrapper in it currently, its basically only allowed in statics if you have friends that are nice enough to carry a bad build.

"Just ask someone else to bring fury": A lot of groups don't even want to run a 2nd healer and you want to convince them to bring another support just for fury? It will just not get played. Scrapper has no support in pve. Thats why it was dead there for years.

Even current function gyro rez is a joke to something like heal scourge. You never need perma superspeed. A few sec to do mechanics are enough and druid can already do that.

 

Tanky bruiser dps is a roleplay only thing. Finally they try to give it a purpose in pve. Just needs a bit more help. A holo is not going to bring hard light arena just to be able to play with a scrapper. they will simply not take the scrapper unless the player somehow forces them.

 

@Dadnir.5038Forum post number doesn't really matter. Rather hours spend on class or fractal god, raid completions etc..

If anything a high forum post count just means that the player spends less time ingame and more time writing stuff here.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Nephalem.8921

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

What do you even mean with all of that? Do you play endgame pve? Nobody plays scrapper in it currently, its basically only allowed in statics if you have friends that are nice enough to carry a bad build.

"Just ask someone else to bring fury": A lot of groups don't even want to run a 2nd healer and you want to convince them to bring another support just for fury? It will just not get played. Scrapper has no support in pve. Thats why it was dead there for years.

Even current function gyro rez is a joke to something like heal scourge. You never need perma superspeed. A few sec to do mechanics are enough and druid can already do that.

 

Tanky bruiser dps is a roleplay only thing. Finally they try to give it a purpose in pve. Just needs a bit more help. A holo is not going to bring hard light arena just to be able to play with a scrapper. they will simply not take the scrapper unless the player somehow forces them.

 

@Dadnir.5038Forum post number doesn't really matter. Rather hours spend on class or fractal god, raid completions etc..

If anything a high forum post count just means that the player spends less time ingame and more time writing stuff here.

 

But that is what they made the class for if there was a failing in pve not to use the roll that more on the pve content then the class it self. Just taging "is support" because of what the core class brings is not enofe and you will end up with a class balanced as a tankly dps but whom also can support you will simply just have another scorge who can do every thing at the same time and will be nerfed doing so in time.

[cat.8975]

They're not going to retool all of the existing PvE content to accommodate Scrapper's unique strengths, be more realistic.

The pragmatic approach is to give it just enough support to compete with Firebrand and Chrono, while not replacing them outright.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

"Dont you know" that elixir gun is not as importan "

Your kiding me?

Raid bosses: Mathias, Sloth,Xera,Soules Horror,Dhuum

Fractcatls: Captain Mai Trin Boss ,Aquatic Ruins,Swampland,Siren Reef,Sounka Peak,Deepstone

Drms: all

 

What will you do on that bosses, drop fury for condi clease? or maybe you will have 0 stab and aoe stun break?

Also what will you do if boss moving alot like Keep Contruct for fury?

 

It's no matter of why do you need, but what will you do if you will need more ?

@Jski.6180

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jski.6180]

30 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

Your kiding me?

Raid bosses: Mathias, Sloth,Xera,Soules Horror,Dhuum

Fractcatls: Captain Mai Trin Boss ,Aquatic Ruins,Swampland,Siren Reef,Sounka Peak,Deepstone

Drms: all

 

What will you do on that bosses, drop fury for condi clease? or maybe you will have 0 stab and aoe stun break?

Also what will you do if boss moving alot like Keep Contruct for fury?

 

It's no matter of why do you need, but what will you do if you will need more ?

@Jski.6180

 

If your going for high quickness i would think you where running blast gyro that has an super speed and stun brake on it. More then likely your running med kit that has a good condi clear on it.

 

What i do not understand is why must you be the only scores of boons in raids?

Edited May 9, 2021 by Jski.6180

[cat.8975]

9 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

If your going for high quickness i would think you where running blast gyro that has an super speed and stun brake on it. More then likely your running med kit that has a good condi clear on it.

 

What i do not understand is why must you be the only scores of boons in raids?

You're going to be casting that AoE stunbreak off cooldown in order to keep quickness up. There won't really be any opportunity to use it reactively.
 

Why are existing support builds allowed to be the "only source of boons" (ignoring alacrity), and Scrapper isn't? Role compression is a necessary evil in order for support builds to exist in this game, as it would take ages to fill a party otherwise. Think back to the early days of raids when groups would look for two chronos, two druids, and two warriors before filling the remaining 4 slots with dps. Sixty percent of the squad was static. It was bad.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

If your going for high quickness i would think you where running blast gyro that has an super speed and stun brake on it. More then likely your running med kit that has a good condi clear on it.

 

med kit got 1 condi clease that clear 1 condi per 1s. ,means in situations wher you will get multiple condis like 4-6 it will take you 4s. wher using elixir gun you will clean all 5 condi at once

 

Quote

What i do not understand is why must you be the only scores of boons in raids?

 

Becace your the only scores of boons in raids/fractals togheter with alac, as dps taking all max dps traits as normaly 25might,fury,quickness can be provided by hfb solo

@Jski.6180

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jski.6180]

Just now, cat.8975 said:

You're going to be casting that AoE stunbreak off cooldown in order to keep quickness up. There won't really be any opportunity to use it reactively.
 

Why are existing support builds allowed to be the "only source of boons" (ignoring alacrity), and Scrapper isn't? Role compression is a necessary evil in order for support builds to exist in this game, as it would take ages to fill a party otherwise. Think back to the early days of raids when groups would look for two chronos, two druids, and two warriors before filling the remaining 4 slots with dps. Sixty percent of the squad was static. It was bad.

Dose it still aoe stun brake it dose not read that way any more. If that what you want seeing how the view is here if you get any type of boon it must be perma or its not wroth any thing. Your already throwing away your utility for just more quinkess any way at that point.

 

That is what i am asking why is it only scraper should be giving fury out why not your tempest your rev maybe even your duride support players they are a thing too you know and they where build to fill the support roll in its completely not like scraper who was a tankly dps that used an med kit to fill an support roll in pvp and only pvp and is now being made into an support roll for pve because anet cant think of what to do other then blanket balancing for wvw spvp and pve from this update.

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

 

med kit got 1 condi clease that clear 1 condi per 1s. ,means in situations wher you will get multiple condis like 4-6 it will take you 4s. wher using elixir gun you will clean all 5 condi at once

 

 

Becace your the only scores of boons in raids/fractals togheter with alac, as dps taking all max dps traits

@Jski.6180

 

I still do not understand this form system to talk to 2 ppl at once sry for the doble post.

 

Elixir gun 5 only clears condis at 1 per sec as well per skill. Fumigate is about 2 condi per sec not 5 all at once too.

 

That just leads to more balancing problem for raid/fractal and show anet has no ideal what they are doing for support classes as if you give scraper every thing why would you even need any other support class. That why this update is just soo bad because its trying to remove the other support classes from the game but for the ones that where just updated. Your suggestion only makes things worst.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

your tempest your rev maybe even your duride support players 

@Jski.6180

You don't have druid or tempest in 5ppl content if you will decide to go as heal+quicknes role

 

Rev can't provid fury, he do it only by runes of pack and thats 60%

and if he chose it, his dmg will drop, while if you take hfb that have fury+quickness, he no need to do it

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jski.6180]

Just now, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

@Jski.6180

You don't have druid or tempest in 5ppl content

 

Rev can't provid fury, he do it only by runes of pack and thats 60%

raids are 5 player content?

 

That is not a problem in your eyes? Should any class not be able to do content?

 

That why i keep telling you your asking for more power creep after anet is adding in a lot of power creep for scraper as is.

Rev dose and it can do dps at the same time!

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

raids are 5 player content?

 

That is not a problem in your eyes? Should any class not be able to do content?

 

That why i keep telling you your asking for more power creep after anet is adding in a lot of power creep for scraper as is.

Rev dose and it can do dps at the same time!

@Jski.6180

 

I tell about pve, and no rev can't fury, only by runes of pack

 

Herald can fury, but then he don't have alac

 

But if he need that Runes of pack only to fury becose your scrapper it's a problem, as he not need do it while hfb

 

All that problem can be solved if thay will add fury to hgh trait as engineer/scrapper have acces to 4 skills that he can use to activate that trait

 

As atm turret will take 1 of your best skill, also turret is pain in kitten to use

Edited May 9, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430