In wvw your 5 seconds of -33% isnt going to make pain absorption not a suicide button.

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 5/7/2021 at 4:08 PM, lodjur.1284 said:

Kalla Power Renegade is sadly dead tho because of PvE

 

Condi Rev outside of True Nature - Demon + resistance spam will be completely viable tho (even that might be somewhat viable but no longer completely gamebreakingly busted)

 

The only thing HERALD actually brings to condi rev is easy mode (dragon) and true nature - demon. Otherwise it is and was worse in every regard, so if anyone genuinely like condi rev, there's 2 completely viable version that will still exist.

 

What made herald so bad for the game was it's effect on small-scale and how if even a single player in your group ran condi your entire team would end up getting instant 25 stacks of the relevant condis while doing little to no damage because of pain abso spam, together with being very hard to focus down due to broken infuse light. Condi thief and mesmer are at worst annoying or breaking 1v1, but fights don't go from easy mode to immense challenge cause 1/4 enemy players swapped to it.

Power Ren might be dead in PvE, but I dont pay attention to raids/strikes. to me thats dead content unworthy of my time investment, in WvW it hits like a truck. Just dont take the kalla legend and run jalis/shiro. Give Innvocation up and run the respective traitlines, this will only get buffed due to the kalla changes in her traitline and the jalis buffs. Due to Kalla's fervor now buffing raw damage, you can run full battle scars. Jalis offers enough defensives alone in his traitline and with kalla offering alacrity and solid ranged options for rev you might not be as fast as herald but if someone tries to tango with you you essentially get a nope bubble on heal against ranged. And you get a strong weapon, as well enough power modifiers to really out duel someone. And with shiro you get enough mobility to still be deadly.

I don't think people realize how strong Power renegade is if given the proper build, commanders, marauders, crusaders and a few others are solid. And if you want to be really cheeky then run Celestial with a solid rune of your choice. Honestly people sleep on renegade but I've seen renegades mess people up, its not terrible. Core and power renegade might just be able to be a good alternative to those who dislike herald. Power herald is very punishing if played poorly, its hard to play because it lacks a lot and is focused on burst explicitly.

The goal is dive in with shiro= unrelenting assault= legend swap to proc sigils and line up your burst after you true nature shiro to make it unblockable. If someone knows how to counter you (Dodge, then cc and force the revenant to expend its energy) its game over. Its fun but can be counter a bit easier than the variants. With condi herald likely vanishing kitten near completely Im pretty sure core/renegades will come to take its place.

[lodjur.1284]

5 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Power Ren might be dead in PvE, but I dont pay attention to raids/strikes. to me thats dead content unworthy of my time investment, in WvW it hits like a truck. Just dont take the kalla legend and run jalis/shiro. Give Innvocation up and run the respective traitlines, this will only get buffed due to the kalla changes in her traitline and the jalis buffs. Due to Kalla's fervor now buffing raw damage, you can run full battle scars. Jalis offers enough defensives alone in his traitline and with kalla offering alacrity and solid ranged options for rev you might not be as fast as herald but if someone tries to tango with you you essentially get a nope bubble on heal against ranged. And you get a strong weapon, as well enough power modifiers to really out duel someone. And with shiro you get enough mobility to still be deadly.

I don't think people realize how strong Power renegade is if given the proper build, commanders, marauders, crusaders and a few others are solid. And if you want to be really cheeky then run Celestial with a solid rune of your choice. Honestly people sleep on renegade but I've seen renegades mess people up, its not terrible. Core and power renegade might just be able to be a good alternative to those who dislike herald. Power herald is very punishing if played poorly, its hard to play because it lacks a lot and is focused on burst explicitly.

The goal is dive in with shiro= unrelenting assault= legend swap to proc sigils and line up your burst after you true nature shiro to make it unblockable. If someone knows how to counter you (Dodge, then cc and force the revenant to expend its energy) its game over. Its fun but can be counter a bit easier than the variants. With condi herald likely vanishing kitten near completely Im pretty sure core/renegades will come to take its place.

Specified Kalla Power Renegade, the rest is decent but meh, just not very interesting and not very good at outnumbered fights, especially shiro. Still viable for 1v1s etc ofc but meh

 

Also the 10% dmg buff shouldn't work on battle scars as it's lifesteal afaik.

 

Imo deva is worse than retri and for power ren it got a bit worse since vigor is easier to keep up than new resolute

Edited May 9, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Thornwolf.9721]

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Specified Kalla Power Renegade, the rest is decent but meh, just not very interesting and not very good at outnumbered fights, especially shiro. Still viable for 1v1s etc ofc but meh

 

 

I mean rev has been meh outside of condi herald/condi rev for a while now. Almost feels like we are being pushed pretty hard to be a PvE class but it still works. Honestly, I feel like the class won't be seen nearly as much after these changes and then the QQ can stop. People made Condi herald a bigger deal than it was, kite it. CC it. It dies. Hell I even would out box them on spell-breaker because full counter just would say "No, you can't give me these because Imma give em back to you. So no you." 

Now its dead. Grats. People can move on and go complain about theives/messmers/necro's/rangers again and leave us alone. I honestly never understood the hate, so it was good in PvP/WvW (More so WvW than PvP once trailblazers was removed from PvP honestly.) But then people always need the "this class is broken, I can't dumpster it because it counters me. Reee" thing in every game lol.

[lodjur.1284]

1 minute ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

I mean rev has been meh outside of condi herald/condi rev for a while now. Almost feels like we are being pushed pretty hard to be a PvE class but it still works. Honestly, I feel like the class won't be seen nearly as much after these changes and then the QQ can stop. People made Condi herald a bigger deal than it was, kite it. CC it. It dies. Hell I even would out box them on spell-breaker because full counter just would say "No, you can't give me these because Imma give em back to you. So no you." 

Problem with condi herald was always with the herald part, not the condi rev part. It was the excessive invulns (mostly to condi, but also to power).

 

But it's gone, the spam nothing but transfers playstyle is gone.

1 minute ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Now its dead. Grats. People can move on and go complain about theives/messmers/necro's/rangers again and leave us alone. I honestly never understood the hate, so it was good in PvP/WvW (More so WvW than PvP once trailblazers was removed from PvP honestly.) But then people always need the "this class is broken, I can't dumpster it because it counters me. Reee" thing in every game lol.

This nerf left condi renegade and core rev mostly intact while nerfing the problematic build.

 

Power Ren with kalla was great tho and I am sad it's gone and that the only power ren build will be with shiro

[Thornwolf.9721]

13 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Problem with condi herald was always with the herald part, not the condi rev part. It was the excessive invulns (mostly to condi, but also to power).

 

But it's gone, the spam nothing but transfers playstyle is gone.

This nerf left condi renegade and core rev mostly intact while nerfing the problematic build.

 

Power Ren with kalla was great tho and I am sad it's gone and that the only power ren build will be with shiro

I mean I never saw it as problematic, so perhaps its a skill thing. I hate to use the "get good" mantra but condi-rev was a dumpster when I encountered it alone. But then I knew how to counter it, with what and where it fell short. A good warrior or guardian would make it regret any choice it made in coming at them. A ranger could EASILY handle it, and I don't even need to bring up how a power messmer would make it eat itself.

It really only countered condi-builds, who had little to no CC or ability to block or dodge. My ranger has nothing but condi-cleanse and on a core ranger I could easily dumpster them. On a warrior again, they weren't a problem. Now get them with some support? Well yes, sure. I agree. But thats only because if they were next to a firebrand or anything that had stability/boon spam made them essentially untouchable. Thats more an issue with boons themselves rather than their playstyle.

Mallyx was designed from the ground up about being condi-dumped, and then redirecting it. Now its trash. Just remove the legend entirely and replace it at this stage? The theme is gone, its purpose gone and its really just a relic. Its playstyle should of been preserved, I've never seen herald as a problem in any form. It has "Defiant stance" as its heal. But out of ALL the revenant heals its really the only one thats significant, shiro's is more of a dps skill than a heal. Jalis's heal won't save you nor will kalla's in any competitive environment where people understand mechanics. 

So all they did was do the same thing they always do, rather than fix they remove. Again im not a condi-rev player; I dabbled at first and agree'd its interaction with the original rune of torment was broken and pinned it more on the rune. But now its really more of a meme; It doesn't take skill to play well nor does it take much to counter it. But as you said its gone, so mallyx will eventually need a rework so he can have a playstyle that is functionally unique and fun. Because as it stands he rests as a worthless legend choice; You'd be better taking shrio now with condi rev and jalis so you can have the mobility and battle-scars stacks while you use impossible odds to spam auto's. 

The issue with nerfing rev as they do is that you don't get to choose utilities, you pick a legend and the choice is made for you. So when you nerf the functionality if their utilities you nerf the whole legend and playstyle. So in doing what they've done essentially they've removed condi rev as a whole from competitive. I don't see core condi rev standing up much in the face of what they will likely have to fight (Not alone at least) nor do I see condi ren doing too terribly much better. Because the changes to torment has essentially made it a worthless condition; One that Condi rev is kind of built around. 

I don't know a single condi-rev sticking with the class, rather than move to power they are moving to guardian. Or ranger/thief/messmer. You might perhaps stick with it; I think I have one guildie who might try to make it work but he has legendary armor so no skin off his nose if its worthless. But this was NOT the way to handle the issue, its the exact opposite of what they should of done. And like warrior they will likely leave the now worthless traitline/traits in mallyx alone and let it fester, but I mean... the intention is to make condi rev baller for PvE and likely have power be baller for PvP. Seeing as they mention that they are "Aware" that power rev doesn't really have an endgame build in PvE. (Diviners ren wants to say hi, but hey... eh.)

Edited May 9, 2021 by Thornwolf.9721

[lodjur.1284]

Just now, Thornwolf.9721 said:

I mean I never saw it as problematic, so perhaps its a skill thing. I hate to use the "get good" mantra but condi-rev was a dumpster when I encountered it alone. But then I knew how to counter it, with what and where it fell short. A good warrior or guardian would make it regret any choice it made in coming at them. A ranger could EASILY handle it, and I don't even need to bring up how a power messmer would make it eat itself.

I really only countered condi-builds, who had little to no CC or ability to block or dodge. My ranger has nothing but condi-cleanse and on a core ranger I could easily dumpster them. On a warrior again, they weren't a problem. Now get them with some support? Well yes, sure. I agree. But thats only because if they were next to a firebrand or anything that had stability/boon spam made them essentially untouchable. Thats more an issue with boons themselves rather than their playstyle.

The transfer+resistance was the problem. There is no real counterplay beyond "don't play condi". That's horrible design.

 

I agree its an issue with "boons" or rather a boon, resistance, luckily it's being fixed.

Just now, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Mallyx was designed from the ground up about being condi-dumped, and then redirecting it. Now its trash. Just remove the legend entirely and replace it at this stage? The theme is gone, its purpose gone and its really just a relic. Its playstyle should of been preserved, I've never seen herald as a problem in any form. It has "Defiant stance" as its heal. But out of ALL the revenant heals its really the only one thats significant, shiro's is more of a dps skill than a heal. Jalis's heal won't save you nor will kalla's in any competitive environment where people understand mechanics.

No.

 

Condi HERALD is all about transfers, no other version of condi rev really cares about doing transfers.

Just now, Thornwolf.9721 said:

So all they did was do the same thing they always do, rather than fix they remove. Again im not a condi-rev player; I dabbled at first and agree'd its interaction with the original rune of torment was broken and pinned it more on the rune. But now its really more of a meme; It doesn't take skill to play well nor does it take much to counter it. But as you said its gone, so mallyx will eventually need a rework so he can have a playstyle that is functionally unique and fun. Because as it stands he rests as a worthless legend choice; You'd be better taking shrio now with condi rev and jalis so you can have the mobility and battle-scars stacks while you use impossible odds to spam auto's. 

Nope.

 

The rune actually adds the high reward to the high risk high reward playstyle. It was never broken. The transfer/dragon heal/resistance has always been the problem.

 

Mallyx is far from gone, it is in a very good state post patch.

 

Condi Ren main here btw.

 

Condi rev/ren Jalis+Mallyx is arguably one of the hardest dps builds in the game to play. Herald is probably in the top 3 easiest atm.

 

 

Just now, Thornwolf.9721 said:

The issue with nerfing rev as they do is that you don't get to choose utilities, you pick a legend and the choice is made for you. So when you nerf the functionality if their utilities you nerf the whole legend and playstyle. So in doing what they've done essentially they've removed condi rev as a whole from competitive. I don't see core condi rev standing up much in the face of what they will likely have to fight (Not alone at least) nor do I see condi ren doing too terribly much better. Because the changes to torment has essentially made it a worthless condition; One that Condi rev is kind of built around.

I don't know a single condi-rev sticking with the class, rather than move to power they are moving to guardian. Or ranger/thief/messmer. You might perhaps stick with it; I think I have one guildie who might try to make it work but he has legendary armor so no skin off his nose if its worthless. But this was NOT the way to handle the issue, its the exact opposite of what they should of done. And like warrior they will likely leave the now worthless traitline/traits in mallyx alone and let it fester, but I mean... the intention is to make condi rev baller for PvE and likely have power be baller for PvP. Seeing as they mention that they are "Aware" that power rev doesn't really have an endgame build in PvE. (Diviners ren wants to say hi, but hey... eh.)

That's funny. Cause me and the rest of my guild all said that most of these condi HERALD players will leave the class now, but that everyone who plays any other version is happy about it, which seems the case so far.

 

Core Condi Rev will still be viable. Renegade will still be viable. It's not even up for debate tbh overall for group play Condi Ren will be better than pre-patch

 

Anyone swapping off Condi Rev (lets be honest, they're all heralds) is not very good at the actual class to begin with honestly. But then again most people only swapped to it to get carried by herald

[Thornwolf.9721]

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

The transfer+resistance was the problem. There is no real counterplay beyond "don't play condi". That's horrible design.

 

I agree its an issue with "boons" or rather a boon, resistance, luckily it's being fixed.

No.

 

Condi HERALD is all about transfers, no other version of condi rev really cares about doing transfers.

Nope.

 

The rune actually adds the high reward to the high risk high reward playstyle. It was never broken. The transfer/dragon heal/resistance has always been the problem.

 

Mallyx is far from gone, it is in a very good state post patch.

 

Condi Ren main here btw.

 

Condi rev/ren Jalis+Mallyx is arguably one of the hardest dps builds in the game to play. Herald is probably in the top 3 easiest atm.

 

 

That's funny. Cause me and the rest of my guild all said that most of these condi HERALD players will leave the class now, but that everyone who plays any other version is happy about it, which seems the case so far.

 

Core Condi Rev will still be viable. Renegade will still be viable. It's not even up for debate tbh overall for group play Condi Ren will be better than pre-patch

 

Anyone swapping off Condi Rev (lets be honest, they're all heralds) is not very good at the actual class to begin with honestly. But then again most people only swapped to it to get carried by herald

So then herald needs a rework. One of the two does, I don't see how condi rev will be worth any form of investment. But again im looking forward to dominating them even more; The salt I used to get will be compounded. And my moto is if I don't make someone rage quit or send "fan mail" then I didn't do my job.

[lodjur.1284]

4 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

So then herald needs a rework. One of the two does, I don't see how condi rev will be worth any form of investment. But again im looking forward to dominating them even more; The salt I used to get will be compounded. And my moto is if I don't make someone rage quit or send "fan mail" then I didn't do my job.

Herald got it's rework.

 

Condi rev is stronger post patch, anyone who doesn't see this doesn't know the class very well

[Thornwolf.9721]

2 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Herald got it's rework.

 

Condi rev is stronger post patch, anyone who doesn't see this doesn't know the class very well

I know the class perfectly well, I thought it was dumb before I still think its dumb now. Easy kills in my eyes. Heralds rework was terrible and seemingly didn't solve anything; Because clearly they are still a "problem" this includes the power variant according to some sources.

You can insinuate as much as you want that I dont know, It wont be stronger. Might be about the same. Again Ill enjoy killing them.(Note this is only saying they wont be stronger in competitive. Im well aware they will be stronger in PvE but then, who cares about that garbage can content lol.)

[lodjur.1284]

8 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

I know the class perfectly well, I thought it was dumb before I still think its dumb now. Easy kills in my eyes. Heralds rework was terrible and seemingly didn't solve anything; Because clearly they are still a "problem" this includes the power variant according to some sources.

You can insinuate as much as you want that I dont know, It wont be stronger. Might be about the same. Again Ill enjoy killing them.(Note this is only saying they wont be stronger in competitive. Im well aware they will be stronger in PvE but then, who cares about that garbage can content lol.)

You said yourself you don't play condi rev. In groups it will def be better, but it will def be used less

 

The resistance change is their rework.

Edited May 9, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Thornwolf.9721]

11 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

You said yourself you don't play condi rev. In groups it will def be better, but it will def be used less

 

The resistance change is their rework.

I also said earlier I play, and have played all variants of rev. I stopped playing it because my guildie started to play condi ren and I Didn't see much need for two condi rev's. Assuming is unhealthy; Nor fair in discounting my experience based on your limited understanding of my playtime or my knowledge of my main. It likely wont be any better, it will be roughly the same if changed at all in group settings. 

And as I've stated several times they will make a good corpse. The resistance change is NOT their rework, its a rework of a boon that effects more than just them. To claim that is a substantial rework is willful ignorance; One that reeks of pretentious self indulgence that this change was done for any other reason besides prepping for something coming in the expansion. Likely a spec will bring something similar to what resistance is now.  

I feel like you don't know as much as you think, and if you do then you strictly look at it from a group perspective. Any half baked build or brain-dead spec can be carried when among its peers. Id love to see any spec if played half decent get decimated while a guardian holds its hand, or its +1'd by a thief or messmer. Point is, I doubt it will be capable of solo roaming or being much more than the zerg surf spec.

Perhaps Ill meet you out on the field, and we can give it a few rounds and see who comes out ontop. But I do believe for the time being this conversation as reached a point where we are better off going separate ways. You're unwilling to bend, as am I and I believe any further attempts at communication will be a waste of my valuable time. So with that, have a good day.

[lodjur.1284]

1 hour ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

I also said earlier I play, and have played all variants of rev. I stopped playing it because my guildie started to play condi ren and I Didn't see much need for two condi rev's. Assuming is unhealthy; Nor fair in discounting my experience based on your limited understanding of my playtime or my knowledge of my main. It likely wont be any better, it will be roughly the same if changed at all in group settings. 

And as I've stated several times they will make a good corpse. The resistance change is NOT their rework, its a rework of a boon that effects more than just them. To claim that is a substantial rework is willful ignorance; One that reeks of pretentious self indulgence that this change was done for any other reason besides prepping for something coming in the expansion. Likely a spec will bring something similar to what resistance is now.  

I feel like you don't know as much as you think, and if you do then you strictly look at it from a group perspective. Any half baked build or brain-dead spec can be carried when among its peers. Id love to see any spec if played half decent get decimated while a guardian holds its hand, or its +1'd by a thief or messmer. Point is, I doubt it will be capable of solo roaming or being much more than the zerg surf spec.

Perhaps Ill meet you out on the field, and we can give it a few rounds and see who comes out ontop. But I do believe for the time being this conversation as reached a point where we are better off going separate ways. You're unwilling to bend, as am I and I believe any further attempts at communication will be a waste of my valuable time. So with that, have a good day.

Imagine calling someone pretentious then writing whatever that was lol, which is funny, cause this post would be the epitome of "pretentious self indulgence".

 

Also Condi Rev/ren is so obviously designed to be an AoE group spec, that whatever solo viability it has or hasn't is kind of irrelevant. (Yes ofc it will be weaker solo, but it just doesn't matter, it was already not a top tier duelist). The fact that it's competition and various hard counters are getting weaker matters far more than it's power level in a vacuum. It'd be just as relevant to comment on it's abysmal performance in zergs, another environment that it's just not designed for.

Edited May 9, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Buran.3796]

On 5/8/2021 at 9:33 AM, lodjur.1284 said:

 

 

If this is whining about HERALD then good riddance, the spec is an abomination.

   Resistance was already nerfed in duration, as Infuse Light. The changes in torment will probably increase the damage, even in PvP. Sustain for Mallyx is gone, tho. I think that power Herald will remain king in PvP, since never needed  exotic things as stability or condi cleansings to survive and do they work. It works even in this meta of no damage and immortal bunkers.

[apharma.3741]

Honestly the problem with condi rev in my eyes has always been it is basically immune to all condition builds outside of necro which can corrupt the resistance when needed, so I welcome the changes as it will tone the build down a lot. I do have concerns about the way pain absorption will work making you kill yourself or take a lot of extra damage that may be hard to sustain through.

On the other hand maybe this is actually an opportunity to breath new life into condi rev while toning down just how silly the build is against condi specs and the disgusting amount of damage it does in an AoE through torment. Talking about small scale here not zerging btw.

[kurogane.9681]

On 5/10/2021 at 8:44 AM, apharma.3741 said:

Honestly the problem with condi rev in my eyes has always been it is basically immune to all condition builds outside of necro which can corrupt the resistance when needed, so I welcome the changes as it will tone the build down a lot. I do have concerns about the way pain absorption will work making you kill yourself or take a lot of extra damage that may be hard to sustain through.

On the other hand maybe this is actually an opportunity to breath new life into condi rev while toning down just how silly the build is against condi specs and the disgusting amount of damage it does in an AoE through torment. Talking about small scale here not zerging btw.

Actually, that resistance change basically killed the condi herald/mallyx build. We rely on condi immunity when fighting against condi class specifically since we don't have any condi cleanses aside from 1 condi transfer skill and traited shield, and traited shield can't even keep up with the cleanse. Regardless if you are roaming or in small scale fights (I only play WvW), even if I have condi reduction damage from food (20%) and resolution (33%) up most of the time, I melted quickly when demon true nature and traited shield skills cleanses are on cooldowns. I can't even kept toe to toe with a condi core necro or condi druid now with the change.

 

In WvW, I don't have any complains about the torment change and fighting against power builds because I barely notice any difference with them. The only 2 problems with this class now are fighting condi classes and the lack of condi cleanse skills.

Edited May 12, 2021 by kurogane.9681

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 5/7/2021 at 6:15 AM, lodjur.1284 said:

There's no risk to stunbreaking with it. 

 

Just cancel the skill with stow weapon/hammering esc/weapon swap/dodging. If you don't wanna do more than stunbreak.

 

A redesign would be welcome but the skill will hardly be useless/suicide post patch if one uses their head.

 

Also because you asked

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Save_Yourselves!"

 

Stunbreak that has the same effect (but way bigger)

You shouldn't have to cancel a stunbreak in order to not kill yourself.  That's just horrible game design, sorry. 

[lodjur.1284]

22 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

You shouldn't have to cancel a stunbreak in order to not kill yourself.  That's just horrible game design, sorry. 

Idk I have used it since patch and haven't killed myself, kinda sounds like a l2p issue. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

21 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Idk I have used it since patch and haven't killed myself, kinda sounds like a l2p issue. 

Obviously it's possible to use it and not kill yourself, but advocating for "cancelling a stunbreak's effects in order to not kill yourself in a group setting" is extremely misguided and bad game design

Edited May 12, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[lodjur.1284]

28 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Obviously it's possible to use it and not kill yourself, but advocating for "cancelling a stunbreak's effects in order to not kill yourself in a group setting" is extremely misguided and bad game design

Well I didn't even cancel it, there was no need, I had the option if I wanted it tho.

 

Then again if I use a skill that takes condi from my allies, I have a look first lol or just have a clear ready, hardly difficult to do.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Well I didn't even cancel it, there was no need, I had the option if I wanted it tho.

 

Then again if I use a skill that takes condi from my allies, I have a look first lol or just have a clear ready, hardly difficult to do.

Again, Obviously it's possible not to kill yourself by using it even without cancelling it.  However, advocating for "you need to be able to cancel it to make sure you don't kill yourself on your stunbreak" is, again, misguided and terrible game design.  This wouldn't be an issue if Rev had choices in utilities and stunbreaks, but they don't, so Mallyx effectively has the ability to near insta kill you if you're not exceedingly careful.  This isn't something any other class has to deal with.  Save Yourselves has the same issue now, however, Guardian can also choose utilities and has far higher and easier access to cleanses so it's not as egregious on Guard. 

In roaming, you're not always with a small group of people in your party.  I highly doubt you're clicking on randos you're not partied with and checking to see if they have a debilitating amount of conditions on them before pressing Pain Absorption.  The skill is intended to be a group clear that is then dealt with by the Revenant by holding the condis on the Rev.  Literally all of Condi Rev is based around being able to ignore conditions for a time as its main form of condi management.  If they changed Resistance and then gave Condi Rev more cleanse to compensate or even gave Pain Absorption barrier per condi transferred as a temporary way to deal with condis, I doubt anyone would be complaining.  But they didn't and now we're here

Edited May 12, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[lodjur.1284]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Again, Obviously it's possible not to kill yourself by using it even without cancelling it.  However, advocating for "you need to be able to cancel it to make sure you don't kill yourself on your stunbreak" is, again, misguided and terrible game design.  This wouldn't be an issue if Rev had choices in utilities and stunbreaks, but they don't, so Mallyx effectively has the ability to near insta kill you if you're not exceedingly careful.  This isn't something any other class has to deal with.  Save Yourselves has the same issue now, however, Guardian can also choose utilities and has far higher and easier access to cleanses so it's not as egregious on Guard. 

In roaming, you're not always with a small group of people in your party.  I highly doubt you're clicking on randos you're not partied with and checking to see if they have a debilitating amount of conditions on them before pressing Pain Absorption.  The skill is intended to be a group clear that is then dealt with by the Revenant by holding the condis on the Rev.  Literally all of Condi Rev is based around being able to ignore conditions for a time as its main form of condi management.  If they changed Resistance and then gave Condi Rev more cleanse to compensate or even gave Pain Absorption barrier per condi transferred as a temporary way to deal with condis, I doubt anyone would be complaining.  But they didn't and now we're here

No. Pain Absorption should either be completely reworked to a diff skill or kept in it's current state. It being weak is a tiny price to pay to keep transfer herald away. At most a cost reduction on the thing as 30 mallyx energy is "never" worth it to break a stun (since you'll be stunned again instantly anyway).

 

You can literally have 6 clears on 10 sec cd, without giving up anything relevant. What more do you need? Condi Rev might have some issues,  but condi management certainly isn't one. Any buffs to mallyx should be focused on EtD or the weapon skills torment applications. 

 

If you got randoms around just assume the worst, or move back, let them die then continue the fight after their death, like you'd normally do around randoms? Or just don't Pain Absorption in those circumstances, some skills are situational lol. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

37 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

No. Pain Absorption should either be completely reworked to a diff skill or kept in it's current state. It being weak is a tiny price to pay to keep transfer herald away. At most a cost reduction on the thing as 30 mallyx energy is "never" worth it to break a stun (since you'll be stunned again instantly anyway).

 

You can literally have 6 clears on 10 sec cd, without giving up anything relevant. What more do you need? Condi Rev might have some issues,  but condi management certainly isn't one. Any buffs to mallyx should be focused on EtD or the weapon skills torment applications. 

 

If you got randoms around just assume the worst, or move back, let them die then continue the fight after their death, like you'd normally do around randoms? Or just don't Pain Absorption in those circumstances, some skills are situational lol. 

"Transfer Herald" is only a problem because True Nature - Mallyx is unevadeable, unblindable, unblockable. This bug gives it no counterplay at all which is the entire reason it's busted.  That and the fact that if I transfer Torment from it I get Torment Rune healing for each stack on up to 5 targets.  This means if I have 20 stacks of Torment on me and I transfer it to 5 targets I get 100 packets of 171+ healing.  That's literally 17,100 healing in that scenario off of the 6th bonus from Torment Runes from one skill.  That's INSANE.  Torment Runes have insanely broken functionality and that plus True Nature - Mallyx being bugged are the main issues with "Transfer Herald," not the synergy between Pain Absorption, Old Resistance, and True Nature.  Also, there was no need to rework Resistance anyway since they could have just nerfed the duration of the application of it like they did in PvP.  Amazingly, after nerfing the durations in PvP, Condi Herald mostly went away (no Torment Runes in PvP either).  Also amazingly, it stayed strong in small scale WvW where Torment Runes + True Nature bug + Long Duration Resistance could run rampant.  Note the difference. 

And what are these "6 clears on a 10s CD?"  Let's not be vague here.  Condi Management absolutely is an issue for Condi Rev now, as it's limited to all the same cleanses as Power Rev (which is notorious for its lack of cleanse compared to other classes, that's a fairly well backed and objective opinion), with the exception of Permeating Pestillence from Corruption (requires hitting a target) and maybe Shield from Herald (though you give up staff and its mobile defense and cleanse for that).

I shouldn't have to "assume the worst" in a team game and back off because my abilities will potentially kill me.  My team based abilities shouldn't inherently be potentially dangerous for me to use.  Again, no class has to worry about this the same way Revenant does since they can choose all of their utilities.  This isn't a "L2P" issue, this is a "skill design shouldn't do this, period" issue.  You can keep "lol"ing me and highkey insulting my ability to play the game, but that doesn't make my arguments wrong and I hope you realize I haven't been that aggressive or condescending to you. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[lodjur.1284]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

"Transfer Herald" is only a problem because True Nature - Mallyx is unevadeable, unblindable, unblockable. This bug gives it no counterplay at all which is the entire reason it's busted.  That and the fact that if I transfer Torment from it I get Torment Rune healing for each stack on up to 5 targets.  This means if I have 20 stacks of Torment on me and I transfer it to 5 targets I get 100 packets of 171+ healing.  That's literally 17,100 healing in that scenario off of the 6th bonus from Torment Runes from one skill.  That's INSANE.  Torment Runes have insanely broken functionality and that plus True Nature - Mallyx being bugged are the main issues with "Transfer Herald," not the synergy between Pain Absorption, Old Resistance, and True Nature.  Also, there was no need to rework Resistance anyway since they could have just nerfed the duration of the application of it like they did in PvP.  Amazingly, after nerfing the durations in PvP, Condi Herald mostly went away (no Torment Runes in PvP either).  Also amazingly, it stayed strong in small scale WvW where Torment Runes + True Nature bug + Long Duration Resistance could run rampant.  Note the difference. 

And what are these "6 clears on a 10s CD?"  Let's not be vague here.  Condi Management absolutely is an issue for Condi Rev now, as it's limited to all the same cleanses as Power Rev (which is notorious for its lack of cleanse compared to other classes, that's a fairly well backed and objective opinion), with the exception of Permeating Pestillence from Corruption (requires hitting a target) and maybe Shield from Herald (though you give up staff and its mobile defense and cleanse for that).

I shouldn't have to "assume the worst" in a team game and back off because my abilities will potentially kill me.  My team based abilities shouldn't inherently be potentially dangerous for me to use.  Again, no class has to worry about this the same way Revenant does since they can choose all of their utilities.  This isn't a "L2P" issue, this is a "skill design shouldn't do this, period" issue.  You can keep "lol"ing me and highkey insulting my ability to play the game, but that doesn't make my arguments wrong and I hope you realize I haven't been that aggressive or condescending to you. 

Torment Runes are fine. They just add the reward to the high risk high reward gameplay of condi rev, while herald and resistance took away the risk part.

 

The problem with it was always that they could run around invuln with their 25+ stacks of everything preparing their almost 1 shot, even if that bit was dodgeable on a 1 sec visible cast time, it'd still be a problem necro transfers, notable plague signet isn't really avoidable because instant, yet not really a problem, the difference,  necro can't with at 65 stacks of Torment ticking for 0 without a lot of help.

 

Even unbugged True nature - demon would be busted, the cast time is too short and the radius too big.

 

Cleansing Channel+Cleansing Sigil+Permeating, you swap almost off CD anyway. Once again, go melee, have 4+ enemies around you, they won't all dodge, go melee, take risks. Stop just banish spamming from the sides.

 

Also jalis is another 5/30 sec.

 

Renegade+Retribution (or some other high uptime source of resolution) can give more or less permanent 68% less condi dmg taken. Condi Management isn't an issue on condi rev. Jalis hammers makes that 88% it's clearly survivable without crazy investment. 

 

Rev clears aren't considered that poor due to strong synergy with Cleansing Sigil.

 

If you don't like high risk high reward gameplay there's plenty of options, mallyx doesn't have to be one of those.

 

I don't wanna insult anyone, but it's hard to tell people to have basic situational awareness in a non-condescending way or that if they don't like taking risks, maybe mallyx isn't the stance for them.

Edited May 12, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

43 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Torment Runes are fine. They just add the reward to the high risk high reward gameplay of condi rev, while herald and resistance took away the risk part.

I fundamentally disagree with this.  Torment Runes are the entire reason Condi Rev was overperforming in outnumbered and small scale fights.  They made the build have far too much healing, essentially making the build impervious to death for anyone that knew what they're doing.  They completely take away the risk of going melee, especially since with good kiting and use of blocks/evades condi rev isn't taking a ton of damage anyway. 

 

48 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

The problem with it was always that they could run around invuln with their 25+ stacks of everything preparing their almost 1 shot, even if that bit was dodgeable on a 1 sec visible cast time, it'd still be a problem necro transfers, notable plague signet isn't really avoidable because instant, yet not really a problem, the difference,  necro can't with at 65 stacks of Torment ticking for 0 without a lot of help.

No one is running around with 25+ stacks of everything for very long since you have to specifically avoid ally cleanses (and your own) and also avoid any potential Resistance corrupts/strips from enemy necros/revs/mesmers/spellbreaker.  It's a few seconds at best before a transfer and maybe a stack or two of condis past 15-20 stacks generally.  If they fix the bug the skill will be considerably easier to "accidentally" avoid and thus lead to far less issues.  They can increase the cast time, but I would hesitate to do that now that Rev potentially kills itself before it gets the transfer off.  Remember also, Rev doesn't have as high of a health pool as Necro and it doesn't have the Shroud to fall back on if it needs it
 

53 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Cleansing Channel+Cleansing Sigil+Permeating, you swap almost off CD anyway. Once again, go melee, have 4+ enemies around you, they won't all dodge, go melee, take risks. Stop just banish spamming from the sides.

Cleansing Channel is debatable now since Retribution's Resolution constant 33% condi reduction might be better overall and it directly competes with Invocation in Herald and Renegade builds.  Cleansing Sigil timing is also potentially funky due to Legend Swap and Weapon Swap activating it.  You need it on both weapon sets to guarantee activating it every 10s without locking yourself into the pattern of Legend Swap off CD before weapon swapping.  Obviously cleansing is good, but it can be somewhat inconsistent for this reason.  Sigil of Cleansing is also available to all professions, so isn't the best example of "Rev having good cleansing compared to other classes."  Other classes still have more and are able to actually choose their cleanse utilities. 

More importantly, no good Condi Rev is just banish spamming from the side.  That's a weird strawman as it's not even an effective strategy in most encounters

 

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Renegade+Retribution (or some other high uptime source of resolution) can give more or less permanent 68% less condi dmg taken. Condi Management isn't an issue on condi rev. Jalis hammers makes that 88% it's clearly survivable without crazy investment.

This is true, and personally I'm excited to try the build (though it lacks strong Protection uptime).  However, it's good for condi Renegade and not so great for Core or Herald.  Even in this context though, Pain Absorption still may be a death sentence. 
 

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Rev clears aren't considered that poor due to strong synergy with Cleansing Sigil.

I strongly disagree with this statement.  Power Rev clears are notorious for being poor.  Even the best players consistently say that condi cleansing is not a strong-suit of Power Rev and that one of the biggest counters is condition damage.  There is near community consensus that Rev lacks strong condi cleanse.  It's one of the biggest, continuous complaints that has existed for Rev since HoT.  Obviously this wasn't the case for Condi variants prior to the patch, but with the patch Condi variants are relegated to nearly all the same tools that Power has used for years (which has always largely relied on Sigil of Cleansing).  Even with cleansing factored in, Rev clear is known to be low.  I'm honestly not sure where you're getting your information if you haven't heard top tier players, guides, etc. discussing Rev's weaknesses to condis. 

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

If you don't like high risk high reward gameplay there's plenty of options, mallyx doesn't have to be one of those.

 

I don't wanna insult anyone, but it's hard to tell people to have basic situational awareness in a non-condescending way or that if they don't like taking risks, maybe mallyx isn't the stance for them.

 

I've played Condi Rev since HoT, gotten top 20 placements in 2v2 and 3v3 seasons while using cRev and not abusing Scourge, and even consistently beaten Team USA Condi Heralds in 1v1 mirror matches.   In WvW I rarely lose duels or small group fights while on cRev and don't ever lose to mirror matchups.  I absolutely know how to play the class and I've already reasoned out all of the ways to "use Pain Absorption appropriately in the May 11th+ meta."  By telling me to have basic situational awareness you're essentially stripping away my many years of high level gameplay, telling me I'm wrong and that I don't know how to/shouldn't play my class, and not even addressing my main argument. 

My main argument is that skills, especially stunbreaks (and especially utility skills on Revenant since we don't have choices). should not be designed in such a way that they potentially kill or greatly hinder the user for being used for their intended use.  The intended use of Pain Absorption was 1) to pull condis from allies and prevent damage to the group and self from condis by spreading (old) Resistance, and 2) to break a stun.  Pain Absorption clearly no longer works for this purpose anymore and has the potential to be detrimental to the user when used for either of its use cases (especially #2).  My argument is towards the game design aspect of the skill and not towards the practical use aspect of the skill though the two do inform and relate to each other. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lodjur.1284]

7 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I fundamentally disagree with this.  Torment Runes are the entire reason Condi Rev was overperforming in outnumbered and small scale fights.  They made the build have far too much healing, essentially making the build impervious to death for anyone that knew what they're doing.  They completely take away the risk of going melee, especially since with good kiting and use of blocks/evades condi rev isn't taking a ton of damage anyway. 

 

You found the actual problem right at the end there. 

 

 blocks/evades/invulns a common problem in gw2. Dragon heal, staff/shield and high uptime of invuln to condi damage were issues, getting a couple hundred healing/sec when within melee with 5 people, not a problem, during the spikes maybe even a thousand or two in a sec. Thing is 5 people in melee with you should be doing far far more dmg than 2000/sec to you. 

 

If you look at most melee builds that are viable in WvW most of em have similar passives

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No one is running around with 25+ stacks of everything for very long since you have to specifically avoid ally cleanses (and your own) and also avoid any potential Resistance corrupts/strips from enemy necros/revs/mesmers/spellbreaker.  It's a few seconds at best before a transfer and maybe a stack or two of condis past 15-20 stacks generally.  If they fix the bug the skill will be considerably easier to "accidentally" avoid and thus lead to far less issues.  They can increase the cast time, but I would hesitate to do that now that Rev potentially kills itself before it gets the transfer off.  Remember also, Rev doesn't have as high of a health pool as Necro and it doesn't have the Shroud to fall back on if it needs it
 

 

Yet it is what a lot of groups (and single players) did against me and my group where the transfer+resistance was the entire strategy. In this context I'm talking about some self proclaimed try hard groups.

 

Even in other groups it wasn't uncommon to for example easily win the 3v4 against a group, 5 min later they come back with a Herald 20 sec into fight we all got 25 stacks of Torment with Herald having done nothing but pain abso and true nature - demon. Suddenly that same group that before died in 15 sec and didn't get anyone low is major threat. All because of transfer Herald, this happened very frequently, usually one could still win but not always.

 

This should more or less have fixed the issue. Since this strategy was extremely dominant in smallscale.

 

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Cleansing Channel is debatable now since Retribution's Resolution constant 33% condi reduction might be better overall and it directly competes with Invocation in Herald and Renegade builds.  Cleansing Sigil timing is also potentially funky due to Legend Swap and Weapon Swap activating it.  You need it on both weapon sets to guarantee activating it every 10s without locking yourself into the pattern of Legend Swap off CD before weapon swapping.  Obviously cleansing is good, but it can be somewhat inconsistent for this reason.  Sigil of Cleansing is also available to all professions, so isn't the best example of "Rev having good cleansing compared to other classes."  Other classes still have more and are able to actually choose their cleanse utilities. 

More importantly, no good Condi Rev is just banish spamming from the side.  That's a weird strawman as it's not even an effective strategy in most encounters

You don't need it on both weapon sets you just need planning, in fact having it on both ends up clunkier imo. One just needs to get into the pattern of swapping Legend more or less right before weapon swap every time and you can proc it every 10. This isn't very difficult to do when needed (when you're in the thick of it).

 

Sigil of Cleansing is better on Rev than most other classes because we have it fit better into our rotation and cqn have better control over it than other classes.

 

Banish and Pain abso is all I see Heralds do (and other defensive stuff). 

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This is true, and personally I'm excited to try the build (though it lacks strong Protection uptime).  However, it's good for condi Renegade and not so great for Core or Herald.  Even in this context though, Pain Absorption still may be a death sentence. 
 

I strongly disagree with this statement.  Power Rev clears are notorious for being poor.  Even the best players consistently say that condi cleansing is not a strong-suit of Power Rev and that one of the biggest counters is condition damage.  There is near community consensus that Rev lacks strong condi cleanse.  It's one of the biggest, continuous complaints that has existed for Rev since HoT.  Obviously this wasn't the case for Condi variants prior to the patch, but with the patch Condi variants are relegated to nearly all the same tools that Power has used for years (which has always largely relied on Sigil of Cleansing).  Even with cleansing factored in, Rev clear is known to be low.  I'm honestly not sure where you're getting your information if you haven't heard top tier players, guides, etc. discussing Rev's weaknesses to condis. 

Trying to throw your weight around because you get

 

I make my own opinions by testing. 

 

I never had issues with condi on power Renegade. Clears on power Rev might be tied to the Sigil, but the Sigil is extremely good atm.

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I've played Condi Rev since HoT, gotten top 20 placements in 2v2 and 3v3 seasons while using cRev and not abusing Scourge, and even consistently beaten Team USA Condi Heralds in 1v1 mirror matches.   In WvW I rarely lose duels or small group fights while on cRev and don't ever lose to mirror matchups.  I absolutely know how to play the class and I've already reasoned out all of the ways to "use Pain Absorption appropriately in the May 11th+ meta."  By telling me to have basic situational awareness you're essentially stripping away my many years of high level gameplay, telling me I'm wrong and that I don't know how to/shouldn't play my class, and not even addressing my main argument. 

My main argument is that skills, especially stunbreaks (and especially utility skills on Revenant since we don't have choices). should not be designed in such a way that they potentially kill or greatly hinder the user for being used for their intended use.  The intended use of Pain Absorption was 1) to pull condis from allies and prevent damage to the group and self from condis by spreading (old) Resistance, and 2) to break a stun.  Pain Absorption clearly no longer works for this purpose anymore and has the potential to be detrimental to the user when used for either of its use cases (especially #2).  My argument is towards the game design aspect of the skill and not towards the practical use aspect of the skill though the two do inform and relate to each other. 

 

I have post patch used Pain Absorption to save allies. It still works for this purpose. The skill now carries a risk, which fits the theme of mallyx and the still high power level of group resistance. 

 

Mallyx is supposed to be a high risk high reward legends, like new PA and EtD+Torment Runes, the stuff that nullifies the risk is what should be changed (old PA, staff, infuse light, shield, etc) not torment Runes, had they nerfed those it would've fixed nothing except nuking all non-herald versions.

 

Yes ofc it is weaker, but being able to get several people out of immob (and the other annoying stuff) is good.

 

Honestly I've  barely ever stunbroken with it, it's simply too expensive and it gives no stab so if you're in a spot where there is CC, you just get CCed again.

 

If you don't want people to say you don't have basic situational awareness don't say things that imply you don't. Knowing what friendly players are around you and if they're a liability Def falls into that category

 

Also stop  trying to throw some weight around it's just kinda silly, you're not intimidating anyone nor do these claims impress me, whether fabricated or not (not calling you a liar, just saying I honestly don't care). By any metric I fall into "top players" I just specifically avoid these kinda silly kitten measuring contests and exclusively post from my second account specifically to avoid em. I am simply judging you based on the things you say.

 

I am no stripping you of anything, simply letting what you say speak for itself, completely without any prejudice for or against it.

 

I want condi Rev/Ren (not herald) to get buffs in healthy ways now, it is only slightly weaker than last patch but the areas that it lost were hugely problematic. Banish is one of the few very unhealthy parts of condi rev that's left. 

 

If you were arguing for a completely different skill instead of PA I would agree with you, but you seem to want old PA (an extremely carrying skill) back in the game, when it's removal helped smallscale immensely. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by lodjur.1284