How would you do an "easy mode" in raids?

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

For you. When i was making my initial post, i wasn't responding to you, though, did i.

 

Right. Whish is why you keep suggesting things you already admitted in not believing in (and ones you also admitted not wanting to succeed).

 

Sobx is just trying to clarify points I'm making, even if they don't necessarily agree with me. It is possible to recognize someone's point even if you don't agree with them.

 

Which isn't something you're capable of, thus far.

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

For you.

And that's exactly what I wrote.

 

Quote

Right. Whish is why you keep suggesting things you already admitted in not believing in (and ones you also admitted not wanting to succeed).

lmao, wrong. Did you even read the post you've just """responded""" to? (or the one you're referring to out of context? 😄 )

Edited June 9, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Sobx is just trying to clarify points I'm making, even if they don't necessarily agree with me. It is possible to recognize someone's point even if you don't agree with them.

 

Which isn't something you're capable of, thus far.

I still don;t understand why did you bring up dungeons then, since they had nothing positive to offer towards potential easy mode.

 

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

lmao, wrong. Did you even read the post you've just """responded""" to?

I did read your earlier posts in which you practically admitted you participate in this thread only to make sure easy mode either won;t happen or will have no rewards. Posts you probably want people not remember now, i guess.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I did read your earlier posts in which you admitted you participate in this thread only to make sure easy mode either won;t happen

What are you even talking about? 🤣

Quote

or will have no rewards.

No rewards or significantly lower ones and the reasoning for that was also explained. "Coincidentally", it's the similar reasoning you're willingfully ignoring right now, go figure.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

What are you even talking about? 🤣

You already know what i am talking about, since we already had this conversation before.

 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I still don;t understand why did you bring up dungeons then, since they had nothing positive to offer towards potential easy mode.

 

No, You think they have nothing positive.

 

Granted, if you think dungeons brought 0% value to the people that play the game, then obviously it is pointless to have any discussion regarding it. That's fine.  But I don't accept that premise.

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/9/2021 at 7:40 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

You already know what i am talking about, since we already had this conversation before.

Nope, you've pulled some crap out of context and disregarded any justification in those posts EXACTLY like you're doing now (because apparently according to you the purpose of easy mode is totally irrelevant, what's SUPER relevant is that someone dared to mention dungeons LOL). And those claims are as false as they were then and you know that pretty well. Now run from the response like you did before o/

Edited June 11, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

No, You think they have nothing positive.

 

Granted, if you think dungeons brought 0% value to the people that play the game, then obviously it is pointless to have any discussion regarding it. That's fine.  But I don't accept that premise.

No, i don;t think they have 0% value. I think they were great and am still sad they were abandoned. I just don't see how they're relevant in discussion about raid easy mode. You didn;t happen to explain that part at all. And i definitely don't want to bring up dungeon story mode as an example of how to do raid story mode. Unless you use it as an example of how not to do it

Edited June 9, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No, i don;t think they have 0% value. I think they were great and am still sad they were abandoned. I just don't see how they're relevant in discussion about raid easy mode. You didn;t happen to explain that part at all. And i definitely don't want to bring up dungeon story mode as an example of how to do raid story mode. Unless you use it as an example of how not to do it

I don't understand why dungeon story mode was a way of how not to do it.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I would not add an "Easy" mode, but instead add a Story mode, and CM for each boss:

 

Story mode:

 * It would feature all story parts of a raid wing, moved from the raid instances to the story instances. 

 * Party size would be 1-5, scaling. Mechanics that can't be scaled to 1 player would be reworked to still be doable solo.

 * These instances would be repeatable and feature as much of the boss mechanics as possible, but more lenient, letting you 'train' the encounters and timings without getting wiped too easily. 

 * Would give rewards only once per character, and no unique raid rewards or raid currency.  There would be a small chance to get tradable raid rewards from the lootbags at the end of the mission, but only for tradable stuff players can already get from TP, and very small. 

 * Only non-combat achievements would be doable in story mode.   Finding letters and stuff like that that can be done once all bosses are dead. 

Normal mode:

 *  Current difficulty, but stripped of story, like strikes.  Any waits, pointless adds, extra events, fluff between boss encounters and unskipable dialogs are moved to the story mode, leaving the raid mode clear of all of that so people can strictly focus on bosses.

 * CMs would be added to every encounter and CM rewards would reset, but only whenever a wing regains the Call of the Mist raid bonus.  This slower reset cadence would ensure people still try to do CMs some times per year and make it easier for people without CMs, without splitting too much players between cm-only and non-cm. 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

That sounds pretty solid.

[Vilin.8056]

4 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well, yea, most people are asleep at that time you posted. Almost all activity revolves around daily resets.

 

I posted less than an hour before you on NA and there were 6 LFGs in t1-t3, 6 strike missions, and 6 raids (but most of them were selling...) so I seriously doubt you regularly check.

I live and play in OCX/Asia active time,  when the majority of Australian players are mostly active.

Oh, and at that time I only see 1 strike mission listed.

 

Either way, the variance between both of our numbers proves that neither these mode are popular among the casual community to warrant an expansion of something similar, it only means they are not dead.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I don't understand why dungeon story mode was a way of how not to do it.

Then you don't remember how popular it was. Hint: even at the height of "dungeon days", people were doing exploration modes almost exclusively. Story mode was something you may do once (per dungeon), and never touch it again, unless perhaps to help out friends doing that story (because it was hard to do it without friends - at the same time when normal dungeon lfgs were filling out in seconds, you could sit for hours looking for pugs to do story mode with and end up with nothing).

 

So, basically, if the the dungeon story mode is an example of something, it's an example of how to create a content that will end up in failure.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Then you don't remember how popular it was. Hint: even at the height of "dungeon days", people were doing exploration modes almost exclusively. Story mode was something you may do once (per dungeon), and never touch it again, unless perhaps to help out friends doing that story (because it was hard to do it without friends - at the same time when normal dungeon lfgs were filling out in seconds, you could sit for hours looking for pugs to do story mode with and end up with nothing).

 

So, basically, if the the dungeon story mode is an example of something, it's an example of how to create a content that will end up in failure.

 

That's the very nature of transitional content. It doesn't make it useless. I don't visit mid-level zones in core tyria either.

 

Ironically, people in my parts do story mode for dungeons and not the actual dungeons because it's needed to do wvw reward tracks.

 

But since you insist on fixating on the word dungeon, I'm just going to refer to it as "story mode". as MithranArkanere.8957 has done a better job at describing what I'd like to see anyways.

Edited June 10, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

That's the very nature of transitional content. It doesn't make it useless. I don't visit mid-level zones in core tyria either.

It's not about being transitional content. As i said, dungeon story modes weren't popular even at the height of dungeon popularity. That popularity ever extended only to exploration modes.

 

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Ironically, people in my parts do story mode for dungeons and not the actual dungeons because it's needed to do wvw reward tracks.

Sure, you need to do story mode once, to unlock wvw track (and to unlock exploration modes). But would you repeat them? That is what decides content popularity.

 

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

But since you insist on fixating on the word dungeon, I'm just going to refer to it as "story mode". as MithranArkanere.8957 has done a better job at describing what I'd like to see anyways.

Oh, i have no problem with it being called story mode, as long as it does not take ideas from dungeon story modes. There are two things specifically that i don't want the easy mode to take from there. First is the fact that those are, in fact, separate from explorations (dungeon may be the same, but encounters are separate and have, in general, nothing in common with the exploration paths). Easy mode should be the same encounters as the normal mode, not something different. Second, that they have next to no rewards. If raid easy mode is to succeed, it will have to have good enough rewards to justify people doing it for itself. Some people think that they should have no or low rewards in order to push people to go higher, but that, first, completely misreads what really easy mode would be good for, and, second, is not going to work.

 

And before you ask - it would not work for multitude of reasons. The primary one being that this kind of content would aim at a number of players that would be way lower than already really low number of raiders - and remember, current number of raiders is too low to justify developing that content. So, we would be talking about content that would be dead before it even arrives. Why would the number be so small? Well, it would not interest players that simply wait raids, but easier. It would also not interest players that are already capable of skipping right to the current raid content. Basically, it would become a raid equivalent of fractal tier 3. Secondary problem would be that the people that currently run raids will definitely prefer those that will not advance this way, but are capable of skipping directly to the current raid level. You will not be able to use your easy mode experience as a way to show to normal mode raiders that you know what you're doing, thus circumventing your lack of KPs. If anything, bringing that up might even be detrimental for you (as you might get assumed to be not good enough to go for "normal" training path). As such, again, people that from the beginning are aiming at the normal mode would be incentivized to just go for it directly. And people that might have been persuaded to try harder difficulties after running the easy mode would not do so, because easy mode would have nothing to interest them in the first place (beyond maybe story or some unlocks, but that, as i mentioned in case of dungeons, is at best a reason to do content once).

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 5/6/2021 at 1:09 PM, Gudradain.3892 said:

Describe how you would implement "easy mode" in raiding.

For the sake of this discussion, please refrain to comment if all you want to say is that you are against "easy mode" in general. I'm aware that many raiders are opposed to an "easy mode" in raiding, myself included depending how it's implemented, but it's a request that is often coming back and it would be interesting to discuss what would be the best way to do it.

Instead, if you don't like a particular suggestion, describe why you feel that this particular suggestion would be a bad idea.

Thank you

Simple. early fractals. Its a five man instance so you can see/do the content with a few friends; Nothing Major.

[ArchonWing.9480]

18 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There are two things specifically that i don't want the easy mode to take from there. First is the fact that those are, in fact, separate from explorations (dungeon may be the same, but encounters are separate and have, in general, nothing in common with the exploration paths). Easy mode should be the same encounters as the normal mode, not something different. Second, that they have next to no rewards. If raid easy mode is to succeed, it will have to have good enough rewards to justify people doing it for itself. Some people think that they should have no or low rewards in order to push people to go higher, but that, first, completely misreads what really easy mode would be good for, and, second, is not going to work.

 

Wat. Is that what this is  all about?

I mean I don't really think crappy rewards are inherent to story mode of whatever, but ok. We should definitely have good rewards.

 

As for the rest, paragraphs please.

Edited June 11, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Vilin.8056]

On 6/10/2021 at 3:06 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not about being transitional content. As i said, dungeon story modes weren't popular even at the height of dungeon popularity. That popularity ever extended only to exploration modes.

 

Sure, you need to do story mode once, to unlock wvw track (and to unlock exploration modes). But would you repeat them? That is what decides content popularity.

 

Oh, i have no problem with it being called story mode, as long as it does not take ideas from dungeon story modes. There are two things specifically that i don't want the easy mode to take from there. First is the fact that those are, in fact, separate from explorations (dungeon may be the same, but encounters are separate and have, in general, nothing in common with the exploration paths). Easy mode should be the same encounters as the normal mode, not something different. Second, that they have next to no rewards. If raid easy mode is to succeed, it will have to have good enough rewards to justify people doing it for itself. Some people think that they should have no or low rewards in order to push people to go higher, but that, first, completely misreads what really easy mode would be good for, and, second, is not going to work.

 

And before you ask - it would not work for multitude of reasons. The primary one being that this kind of content would aim at a number of players that would be way lower than already really low number of raiders - and remember, current number of raiders is too low to justify developing that content. So, we would be talking about content that would be dead before it even arrives. Why would the number be so small? Well, it would not interest players that simply wait raids, but easier. It would also not interest players that are already capable of skipping right to the current raid content. Basically, it would become a raid equivalent of fractal tier 3. Secondary problem would be that the people that currently run raids will definitely prefer those that will not advance this way, but are capable of skipping directly to the current raid level. You will not be able to use your easy mode experience as a way to show to normal mode raiders that you know what you're doing, thus circumventing your lack of KPs. If anything, bringing that up might even be detrimental for you (as you might get assumed to be not good enough to go for "normal" training path). As such, again, people that from the beginning are aiming at the normal mode would be incentivized to just go for it directly. And people that might have been persuaded to try harder difficulties after running the easy mode would not do so, because easy mode would have nothing to interest them in the first place (beyond maybe story or some unlocks, but that, as i mentioned in case of dungeons, is at best a reason to do content once).

Read what OP's asking: the topic is How would you do an "easy mode" in raids?  Not How would you judge somebody's "easy mode" in raids.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[medivh.4725]

Am not sure why long discussions. Interact with light, choose easy, hard, normal modes. For easy mode just boss have shorter life pool, and shard rewards are lesser. Say 1/3? Then of course reduced mechanics about 1/3 of hard. This not rocket science. Just implement it already. Causals also want a feel on raids, and some will scale to fight normal/hard modes. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by medivh.4725

[Ayrilana.1396]

45 minutes ago, medivh.4725 said:

Am not sure why long discussions. Interact with light, choose easy, hard, normal modes. For easy mode just boss have shorter life pool, and shard rewards are lesser. Say 1/3? Then of course reduced mechanics about 1/3 of hard. This not rocket science. Just implement it already. Causals also want a feel on raids, and some will scale to fight normal/hard modes. 

Sure so long as no LI are rewarded along with no achievement/collection progression in the easy mode. 

[lare.5129]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:35 PM, lare.5129 said:

I am sure we need some event each 8 week make one week with boon that make dps 2x-3x  more. In this that is can be guild content also.

Posted May 12, 2021

I like that someone read my messages! thanks Anet! We all love you too!

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

"How would you do an "easy mode" in raids?"

> Looks at Fractals, the most complete and effective difficulty system the game has ever implemented.

 

Hm, I wonder.

[Malthurius.6870]

5-man is the answer.

10 man raids were a mistake, they changed the trajectory of PvE balance irreparably and created an arbitrary barrier to entry by requiring 10 people and those people to have a certain minimum competence. A big reason why people have a hard time getting into raids is because of 1. they don't like doing challenging content that relies on the performance of others. 2. they have social anxieties that prevent them from seeking out groups.

It's much easier to circumvent both of those reasons by reducing the raid size to 5 (as it should have always been, imo, but I'd settle for it being the easy mode variant). 1. Smaller groups places more personal responsibility on the individual, meaning that a player feels less "out of control" of the group's success. 2. It's more reasonable for an individual to have 4 close friends than 9, and pugging in the context of a smaller group is easier for someone with social anxiety.

Beyond that, a 5-man mode makes transitioning to a 10-man version easier. If someone has cleared the 5-man with their friends, they're probably more confident (and the groups looking for people will probably be more confident) that they meet the minimum skill required to clear the content.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Malthurius.6870 said:

5-man is the answer.

Fractals are already a thing.

[Malthurius.6870]

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Fractals are already a thing.

Tell me what fractal tier Forsaken Thicket is in, I can't seem to find it.