Armor of Earth. Why is it so incredibly bad?

[lodjur.1284]

Double the cd of "Stand Your Ground!", which is AoE with same stab duration. 

 

Double the CD of dolyak stance which is AoE with same stab duration and also gives immunity to immob/chill/cripple AND gives unstrippable "protection+resolution" that stacks with the normal boons

 

Even if it's cd was halved it'd still be bad compared to these.

Edited May 7, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Razor.6392]

Lightning Flash

40s cd (pve) 35s cd (pvp) -- According to wiki, it has longer cd in PVE?!

900 range

Not a stun break

Does 70 damage in pvp to 1 target!

 

vs.

 

Blink

30s cd (pve) 35cd (pvp) -- Here it's inverted for some reason.

1200 range

Stun breaks

Does no damage though!

 

It's these kinda things that convince you ANet hates elementalists.

[Dadnir.5038]

If I had to bet, it's because historically (pre-HoT), elementalists overly relied on cantrips and to avoid them to ever do the same ANet's devs do everything possible to put elementalist's cantrips at racial skills level.

[Jski.6180]

Cantrips use to be very good then they where nerfed hard over all with ele effects. Anet never went back to fix there old nerfs and they are in a toxic mind set that ele is "good." They cant see past there own errors.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

Armor of Earth has 10 stacks of stab, whereas Stand Your Ground has 5 stacks and Dolyak Stance is 6 stacks. To me, more stacks aren't of much value because you are only going to get hit with "control effect" conditions only a few times within 6s (except maybe wvw zergfest, but that's to be expected). It doesn't justify the longer CD.

 

According to the wiki, AoE went from 95s CD to 75s to 50s to 50s(PVE)/60s(PVP&WVW). So, at least they haven't worsened AoE CD, except at that last split.

 

 

[Downstate.4697]

4 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

Lightning Flash

40s cd (pve) 35s cd (pvp) -- According to wiki, it has longer cd in PVE?!

900 range

Not a stun break

Does 70 damage in pvp to 1 target!

 

vs.

 

Blink

30s cd (pve) 35cd (pvp) -- Here it's inverted for some reason.

1200 range

Stun breaks

Does no damage though!

 

It's these kinda things that convince you ANet hates elementalists.

Lightning flash used to be part of burst damage. I agree that it needs a buff now.

[lodjur.1284]

Would it really be too much to ask for a 50% reduction to the cd and 600 radius and protection replaced with something like the new resistance

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

An other effect would be appreciated.

A boon; resistance, resolution...  A smoke field !!!??? An aura. A  ring of spikes. Etc.

[steki.1478]

Cantrips used to be good because that's the only thing ele could actually use for defense. They havent been updated in ages and the only attempt to make them relevant was cleansing fire "buff" which is still worthless due to high cooldown.

 

From pvp/wvw perspective: glyps offer nothing (GoEP and revival got improved over time though), signets were mostly useless (air got improved over the years, water/fire are ok-ish and used in cheesy builds from what I see), conjureds offer nothing (shield got improved over the years, fgs was practically the only elite skill that ele could use for years, still too high CD for any single scenario in game). Finally arcane skills, which were actually ok and got pretty good with PoF because of ammo mechanic, but they are now completely worthless due to huge damage nerf.

 

With elite specs ele got access to defense through traits, weapons and utilities, but core ones are still pretty terrible. This is the case with almost any class tbh, too bad that there's very low intentions to update older stuff and make them relevant.

[Bast.7253]

It would be less garbage if it gave some barrier similar to the Ranger's Guard Me! skill or whatever.

I mean I know stab is "strong" already, but for an ele with already low hp getting mowed down by an opponent isn't going to be any less likely because you have 10 stacks of stab.

Especially if you're loaded up with cripple, weakness, and chill. 

I don't think I've even used any core ele spells outside of troll builds with the elemental summons. But using those in pve isn't great because they die quickly. 

Arcane skills are pretty garbage tier. We have a heal that we use as a blast finisher and does additional healing if it hits more people? Woo hoo. We have two damaging arcane skills that do so little damage it's laughable, especially when you have a holo that can just DODGE and get twice that damage added to their next attack. Or press literally any other button and do more passive damage than using an arcane skill.

Then we have the ferocity boost arcane skill that honestly.. doesn't have a place anywhere outside of MAYBE zerg-busting in WvW if you have no pressure on you. No other effects, just a little bit of a ferocity boost that's comparable to a minor trait. lolz

I think they need go back and revise some of these traits/utilities to provide retaliation/resolution. Having easier access to condition cleanse without having to theme an entire build around it or sacrifice numerous damage traits to account for it is still not fun. 

[fuzzyp.6295]

Historically one of the biggest issues with Elementalist has been skills having higher than normal cool-downs. It's part of Arena-Net balance philosophy regarding Ele: you have more skills therefore your skills need higher cool downs. A skill seems like it over performing? Slap a 60-75 second cool down on it. I'm still livid at ToF 75 second cooldown... its absolutely unnecessary now that stab on stance has been removed. It needs to be 50 seconds or so.

 

I think part of the problem with cantrips is that with their cool-down being so long you're almost required invest into Water for Soothing Disruption to reduce their cool-down. Back in the day of Core D/D and WETs running around, this was a fine trade off because Water was the best line for self-sustain for the Elementalist. But overtime ANET has pushed the balance of Water to be less about self-sustain and more about party healing and support. Arguably the Fire Trait line is more geared towards effective self-sustain. So now these self-sustain skills are best used when you invest in the group supportive healing line.

 

Maybe this is more a rant on Water right now. Anyway, to justify the longer cooldown, ANET should really add a 1 or 2 second buff of Resistance or Resolution to justify the cooldown. Adding barrier to this skill would just make it compete with Stone Resonance.

Edited May 9, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[Razor.6392]

2 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Historically one of the biggest issues with Elementalist has been skills having higher than normal cool-downs. It's part of Arena-Net balance philosophy regarding Ele: you have more skills therefore your skills need higher cool downs.

This makes sense for weapon skills. It never made sense for utility skills as ele only has 3 like every single class.

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Historically one of the biggest issues with Elementalist has been skills having higher than normal cool-downs. It's part of Arena-Net balance philosophy regarding Ele: you have more skills therefore your skills need higher cool downs. A skill seems like it over performing? Slap a 60-75 second cool down on it. I'm still livid at ToF 75 second cooldown... its absolutely unnecessary now that stab on stance has been removed. It needs to be 50 seconds or so.

 

I think part of the problem with cantrips is that with their cool-down being so long you're almost required invest into Water for Soothing Disruption to reduce their cool-down. Back in the day of Core D/D and WETs running around, this was a fine trade off because Water was the best line for self-sustain for the Elementalist. But overtime ANET has pushed the balance of Water to be less about self-sustain and more about party healing and support. Arguably the Fire Trait line is more geared towards effective self-sustain. So now these self-sustain skills are best used when you invest in the group supportive healing line.

 

Maybe this is more a rant on Water right now. Anyway, to justify the longer cooldown, ANET should really add a 1 or 2 second buff of Resistance or Resolution to justify the cooldown. Adding barrier to this skill would just make it compete with Stone Resonance.

The ele effects where made to have big effect and well AoE dose not realy have a bit effect. Not the stab or protection or even the stun brake but the AoE buff it self it dose nothing at all. There no reason for it to even apply an effect but it dose as if it should have some effect to it.

[lLobo.7960]

It's just outdated. Like a lot of stuff on elementalist.

It's just an old skill for a different era of the game.

It used to be great, when your boons couldn't be so easily stolen or corrupted.

 

If it was to be made into a modern skill, it would likely pulse 1 stack of protection (3s) and stability (3s) every 3 seconds for the duration of the skill. This way it can still be corrupted/stolen but its not a total waste.

 

Same with lightening flash... 
It should have increased range and either give static aura, or give superspeed, or static discharge. 

[Stallic.2397]

Core ele needs a buff that's for sure. And I agree with most of the points here. But the more nerfs they give to pof, the stronger core becomes. (let's just wait and see how bad EOD specs are) 

 

Signet of air got a huge inderect buff since twist of fate nerf. Signet of fire is easier to land than primordial stance. 

 

Earth shield works great with LR, especially cause it gives a damage oriented build, barrier and blocks. Two more cc's and one of them is unblockable. LR weaver is good, but weak to condi. Core ele can spec for damage and fire cleanse. 

 

Lightning flash could use a buff, but decent enough to take up a utility spot. Arcane heal does more healing over all than "signet heal" if you spec into it. The extra ferocity is just a cherry on top. 

 

Core needs tlc. But I still enjoy the niche builds that regularly beats even meta builds. It's Versatility still beats the same old same old meta. 

 

Edit: armor of earth is useless. You're better off using invulns and blinds, which ele has plenty, rather than hoping stab and prot will save you

Edited May 10, 2021 by Stallic.2397

[hanabal lecter.2495]

I do agree it is extremely lackluster compared to other skills which bring the same use+more to the game and that goes for lightning flash as well.

Edited May 22, 2021 by hanabal lecter.2495

[Jski.6180]

Thinking on it maybe Armor of earth should give Resolution on-top of the protection and stab making armor of earth a full def skill.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

On 5/23/2021 at 8:52 AM, Jski.6180 said:

Thinking on it maybe Armor of earth should give Resolution on-top of the protection and stab making armor of earth a full def skill.

It should become something similar to Soulbeasts Dolyak Stance... It's really pepe to use a skill just so your boons get stolen/removed within 0.1s after they showed on your bar.

[anduriell.6280]

On 5/7/2021 at 2:25 PM, lodjur.1284 said:

Double the cd of "Stand Your Ground!", which is AoE with same stab duration. 

 

Double the CD of dolyak stance which is AoE with same stab duration and also gives immunity to immob/chill/cripple AND gives unstrippable "protection+resolution" that stacks with the normal boons

 

Even if it's cd was halved it'd still be bad compared to these.

Are we talking about this Armor_of_Earth? I think that skill is fine. You can reduce the CD to 40s, apply regeneration and Vigor and thanks to Hardy_Conduit you have over 50% damage reduction. I think that skill is very ok. 

 

Dolyak_Stance does not share anything unless you specialize into an specific Leader_of_the_Pack. I do agree Dolyak is over bloated with effects thou, i would preffer to move the damage reduction to Bear Stance and reduce the CD to 40s in PvP. 

 

 

[Widmo.3186]

49 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Are we talking about this Armor_of_Earth? I think that skill is fine. You can reduce the CD to 40s, apply regeneration and Vigor and thanks to Hardy_Conduit you have over 50% damage reduction. I think that skill is very ok. 

 

Dolyak_Stance does not share anything unless you specialize into an specific Leader_of_the_Pack. I do agree Dolyak is over bloated with effects thou, i would preffer to move the damage reduction to Bear Stance and reduce the CD to 40s in PvP. 

 

 

In order to make it anyhow good you need to
a) use water traitline and pick specific trait (to make it viable)
b) be tempest (to make it 'good')
I dont think in any world that is fine. In teefs SA traitline you have sth called Hidden Thief. Not only eg. SS is excellent skill, but with that it also decreases its CD by 20%. So basically it makes good skill even better. Thats the difference between skill being 'fine' by itself and skill being 'fine' because you must invest in it. Armor was good in Vanilla when ppl had no access to clownfiesta specs that spam boons like Venezuela spams money during inflation, now its just outdated. Even if it was pulsing stab instead of one-time 10 stacks (kek) it would be better. Sad part is that core has not really any choice and Armor is pretty much must have if you want to play it.

Someone mentioned flash. Back in the days it used to be stunbreaker, just like blink. That was the time when d/d shined so it mustve been nerfed to the ground, one of the changes was that they get rid off stunbreak and add damage (and said f*off, its equivalent exchange). And here we are again, cantrips nerfed? ANet never came back to it, even after feb patch. Flash changed because of the damage addition? Never came back to it, wheres the damage now, huh?

Fun thing is that when I play other classes I switch between like multiple utility skills depending on build and matchup. On ele over half of them is just unusable (counting in elite specs), most of the time you play same thing everytime, with really minor changes because there are not really any substitutes. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[lodjur.1284]

47 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Are we talking about this Armor_of_Earth? I think that skill is fine. You can reduce the CD to 40s, apply regeneration and Vigor and thanks to Hardy_Conduit you have over 50% damage reduction. I think that skill is very ok. 

Elementalist doesn't have issues with protection/regen/vigor problem you get em from basically everything. 

 

Also Armor of Earth+Hardy conduit is only 40% damage reduction. 

 

If Armor of Earth applied magnetic aura and had a 30 sec base cd it would probably still be the weakest of the 3.

 

40 sec cd traited versus 24 sec cd traited SyG or 30 sec Dolyak stance...

 

Both of which are just flat out better. 

47 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Dolyak_Stance does not share anything unless you specialize into an specific Leader_of_the_Pack. I do agree Dolyak is over bloated with effects thou, i would preffer to move the damage reduction to Bear Stance and reduce the CD to 40s in PvP. 

Dolyak stance is 30 sec cd

 

"Everyone" takes leader of the pack. 

 

Bear Stance is also already overloaded

 

[Jski.6180]

11 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

It should become something similar to Soulbeasts Dolyak Stance... It's really pepe to use a skill just so your boons get stolen/removed within 0.1s after they showed on your bar.

I wish! Dolyak stance makes you comply immune to soft cc that cant be removed on-top of giving you stab and you can make it aoe (only at 1/2 duration).

[lodjur.1284]

54 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I wish! Dolyak stance makes you comply immune to soft cc that cant be removed on-top of giving you stab and you can make it aoe (only at 1/2 duration).

Actually the boons are full duration from leader

[vilkanor.3072]

if you haven't played the 'original' Elementalist (release date one), you can't truly grasp the bottomless pit in which this profession has been thrown into.

[Jski.6180]

3 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

if you haven't played the 'original' Elementalist (release date one), you can't truly grasp the bottomless pit in which this profession has been thrown into.

There seems to be no bottom that anet is not willing to drop ele into as well. I still think ele as a class is going to be weaker then most non combat mobs/ npc soon.