Overperforming skills/traits

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Static shield is like shocking aura except with no icd. Stun breaks that have a "hit" effect literally dont work against it, you are just chain stunned immediately before you can act.

Elixir S gives invuln on a 60s base cd and aoe stealth on a 45s base cd. Compare that with mist form which is on a 75s cd and prevents interactions after you cast it.

Holosmiths crystal configuration: zephyr grants superspeed and removes cripple chill and immob, on a 4s cd skill... as a master trait.

HGH not only reduces the cd of elixir utility skills, but also of elixir toolbelt skills and elixir gun skills, and it increases the duration of their effects, and grants might on use of any of those skills. All of that loaded into 1 trait is crazy.

Grenade autos still deal more damage than normal weapon auto attack chains, even though they are ranged and aoe and dont require you to face your target.

 

Its honestly getting really tiring seeing engi be so stacked for years.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Paradoxoglanis.1904

[Jski.6180]

Super speed on scraper and all kits.

[Jaykay.9641]

Purity of Purpose should be #1 on ANet's most wanted list to change. Skill is busted and defines alot of the WvW meta.

 

In fact, Alchemy trait line in general is plain broken OP for PvP modes. Engineers have relied on it so long, it's time to adjust it and remove the crutch.

 

This is where I was really disappointed after I read the upcoming patch notes. I got my hopes up for expecting all of the poor performing trait lines being brought up to date and many new builds arising because of it. Firearms, Inventions,  and Tools will have to wait longer :/

[ThrakathNar.4537]

Someone clearly mains ele.

 

I would be lying if I said there weren't some overpowered things on engineer, but not everything you've said is correct.

Static shield is not at all like shocking aura. One of them is a channelled skill, the other can be activated and shared to 5 targets while doing other animations.

Mist form doesn't prevent interactions after you enter it, you can still stomp or revive someone with it. It's also slightly misleading to say that elixir S gives AoE Stealth, since that's sort of how the profession mechanic of engineer works. It's not like elementalist, where you always get the same 4 attunements regardless of your utility skills. Although that skill is definitely on the more powerful end of toolbelt skills.

Grenades being AoE is a blessing and a curse, because it's actually really difficult to get all three of them to hit a target at max range, and that will drastically reduce the damage to below what other auto attacks do (ranger longbow is already pretty close).

 

And engineer being stacked for years? What game have you been playing? At present, engineer is only really stacked in WvW, there are better options in slot for both PvP and PvE. Sure, it's not been in a bad spot, but it's hardly been stacked to the extent of necros, guardians and revs in PvP, or rangers, guardians, and mesmers in PvE.

[Kuma.1503]

Every class sounds broken when you just list out their strengths while ignoring pesky things like weaknesses or context. Try doing the same for Firebrand and see how long your list goes. I guarantee it'll be longer than the entire engineer profession. 

 

Engineer is currently good for one thing in PvE/PvP. Dps. We've occasionally had a bit of utility spinkled in with builds like Prot Holo, but nothing on the level of Guardians, Necros, Revenants, Rangers, hell, even Ele. 

 

With the downside of being an inherently selfish profession, you get the upside of having some fairly powerful selfishly minded skills/traits. Including HGH, Crystal Configuration Zephyr, Kinetic Stabilizers, ect. 

 

We aren't very good at spreading out our power to allies, but we can dump a fair bit of it into ourselves. That, as far as I see it, is balanced. Especially when you consider that more selfless specializations like Renegade or Soulbeast  can rival us in self-sufficiency while also providing top tier support or utility buffs.

 

Engineer is arguably one of the more limited and dated specializations. Soulbeast, DH and Chrono each end up out performing us in either Burst dps or overall dps. Firebrand,Renegade,Warrior,Ranger,Necro, and Ele are all far more valuable in the utility/support department. It's one of the least popular proffessions for a reason. If anything the class could use some love  to make them more desirable. 

 

Purity of Purpose is broken in WvW though, and is almost single handedly carrying Scrapper, but we already knew that. 

 

tl;dr if you want to complain about overperforming, there are far more egregious examples than Engi. 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Jski.6180]

22 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Every class sounds broken when you just list out their strengths while ignoring pesky things like weaknesses or context. Try doing the same for Firebrand and see how long your list goes. I guarantee it'll be longer than the entire engineer profession. 

 

Engineer is currently good for one thing in PvE/PvP. Dps. We've occasionally had a bit of utility spinkled in with builds like Prot Holo, but nothing on the level of Guardians, Necros, Revenants, Rangers, hell, even Ele. 

 

With the downside of being an inherently selfish profession, you get the upside of having some fairly powerful selfishly minded skills/traits. Including HGH, Crystal Configuration Zephyr, Kinetic Stabilizers, ect. 

 

We aren't very good at spreading out our power to allies, but we can dump a fair bit of it into ourselves. That, as far as I see it, is balanced. Especially when you consider that more selfless specializations like Renegade or Soulbeast  can rival us in self-sufficiency while also providing top tier support or utility buffs.

 

Engineer is arguably one of the more limited and dated specializations. Soulbeast, DH and Chrono each end up out performing us in either Burst dps or overall dps. Firebrand,Renegade,Warrior,Ranger,Necro, and Ele are all far more valuable in the utility/support department. It's one of the least popular proffessions for a reason. If anything the class could use some love  to make them more desirable. 

 

Purity of Purpose is broken in WvW though, and is almost single handedly carrying Scrapper, but we already knew that. 

 

tl;dr if you want to complain about overperforming, there are far more egregious examples than Engi. 

 

 

Is near perma super speed support good for the game when super speed counters movement cc comply are kits ok with no cd on swaps and effects that are stronger then most weapons swaps for classes?

 

Kits are so op they converted a class scraper a tankly dps class into an support class. Scraper could not support with out med kit as it is. There is something wrong with kits as they are now.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

5 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Someone clearly mains ele.

 

I would be lying if I said there weren't some overpowered things on engineer, but not everything you've said is correct.

Static shield is not at all like shocking aura. One of them is a channelled skill, the other can be activated and shared to 5 targets while doing other animations.

Mist form doesn't prevent interactions after you enter it, you can still stomp or revive someone with it. It's also slightly misleading to say that elixir S gives AoE Stealth, since that's sort of how the profession mechanic of engineer works. It's not like elementalist, where you always get the same 4 attunements regardless of your utility skills. Although that skill is definitely on the more powerful end of toolbelt skills.

Grenades being AoE is a blessing and a curse, because it's actually really difficult to get all three of them to hit a target at max range, and that will drastically reduce the damage to below what other auto attacks do (ranger longbow is already pretty close).

 

And engineer being stacked for years? What game have you been playing? At present, engineer is only really stacked in WvW, there are better options in slot for both PvP and PvE. Sure, it's not been in a bad spot, but it's hardly been stacked to the extent of necros, guardians and revs in PvP, or rangers, guardians, and mesmers in PvE.

Holo has been meta in pvp since the feb 2020 patch with explosives/nades and occasionally prot, and it was either very strong or meta for all of pof. Scrapper has seen a decent share of time in the meta as well with side node builds, and obviously support in wvw.

 

I know static shield is channeled, but the cc application is on hit just like shocking aura (which is also overpowered). You can activate mistform while rezzing/stomping, but you cannot take any actions after you activate it. With the grenadier trait its really easy to land most of your nades, though the biggest issue is being able to throw nades behind you as it allows engis to put a huge amount of pressure on people while kiting. I know ele has attunements and engi has toolkit skills, my point was that 1 utility gives both invuln and stealth on short cooldowns.

 

If you have been playing pvp/wvw over the last couple years you should know that engineer has been at the top of the meta, and its largely due to these skills and some of the others people have mentioned.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

5 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Every class sounds broken when you just list out their strengths while ignoring pesky things like weaknesses or context. Try doing the same for Firebrand and see how long your list goes. I guarantee it'll be longer than the entire engineer profession. 

 

Engineer is currently good for one thing in PvE/PvP. Dps. We've occasionally had a bit of utility spinkled in with builds like Prot Holo, but nothing on the level of Guardians, Necros, Revenants, Rangers, hell, even Ele. 

 

With the downside of being an inherently selfish profession, you get the upside of having some fairly powerful selfishly minded skills/traits. Including HGH, Crystal Configuration Zephyr, Kinetic Stabilizers, ect. 

 

We aren't very good at spreading out our power to allies, but we can dump a fair bit of it into ourselves. That, as far as I see it, is balanced. Especially when you consider that more selfless specializations like Renegade or Soulbeast  can rival us in self-sufficiency while also providing top tier support or utility buffs.

 

Engineer is arguably one of the more limited and dated specializations. Soulbeast, DH and Chrono each end up out performing us in either Burst dps or overall dps. Firebrand,Renegade,Warrior,Ranger,Necro, and Ele are all far more valuable in the utility/support department. It's one of the least popular proffessions for a reason. If anything the class could use some love  to make them more desirable. 

 

Purity of Purpose is broken in WvW though, and is almost single handedly carrying Scrapper, but we already knew that. 

 

tl;dr if you want to complain about overperforming, there are far more egregious examples than Engi. 

 

 

You are kind of comparing 1 specific engineer build to an entire class. Soulbeast and renegade cant provide top tier support without losing most of their dps, and those are two odd examples since they havent really ever had support builds in pvp. Holo is in no way limited or dated, it is one of the most power crept elite specs in the game. Im not sure why you say its one of the least popular professions. Engi is one of the most popular and strongest classes in pvp and has been at the top of the ranked meta for a long time.

 

Also believe me i could make a pretty long list for every class.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Paradoxoglanis.1904

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

You are kind of comparing 1 specific engineer build to an entire class.

 

If we compare skills 1-1

- Static shield: channeled 2.5s on 30s CD / Shocking aura: Non channeled 4s on 25s CD. Seem legit that the skill during which you can't attack, have a longer CD and is shorter end up having some kind of advantage.

- Elixir S: Invuln 3s, break stun, 60s CD / Mist form: invuln 3s, break stun, 66% increased movement speed, 75s CD. Maybe Mist form could give up the movement speed to have the same CD.

- Cristal configuration: zephir: The trait replace swiftness by superspeed. That said I believe holoforge's skills CD are to short in general so...

- HGH: It's a strong trait but no stronger than plenty other traits in game. If we look at elementalist since it's your reference, Elemental surge have similar amount of effects. And so does lingering curse for necromancer, forceful greatsword for warrior, light on your feet for ranger, ... etc. It might seem heartless but it's standard amount of power for a trait.

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just now, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

If we compare skills 1-1

- Static shield: channeled 2.5s on 30s CD / Shocking aura: Non channeled 4s on 25s CD. Seem legit that the skill during which you can't attack, have a longer CD and is shorter end up having some kind of advantage.

- Elixir S: Invuln 3s, break stun, 60s CD / Mist form: invuln 3s, break stun, 66% increased movement speed, 75s CD. Maybe Mist form could give up the movement speed to have the same CD.

- Cristal configuration: zephir: The trait replace swiftness by superspeed. That said I believe holoforge's skills CD are to short in general so...

- HGH: It's a strong trait but no stronger than plenty other traits in game. If we look at elementalist since it's your reference, Elemental surge have similar amount of effects. And so does lingering curse for necromancer, forceful greatsword for warrior, light on your feet for ranger, ... etc. It might seem heartless but it's standard amount of power for a trait.

 

My main gripe about static shield is that certain stun breaks dont work against it. Im guessing that the stunbreak itself hits the shield and instantly stuns you again. Also i would argue HGH is much stronger than most cd reduction traits because of how many skills it effects. For example, there is already a trait that lowers the cd of toolbelt skills and HGH stacks even more cd reduction on them. Im well aware that other classes have ridiculously powerful traits that could use with adjusting. There is a very good reason why alchemy and HGH have been on nearly every meta engineer build in pvp.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Paradoxoglanis.1904

[anduriell.6280]

Grenade kit is too strong right now in WvW, Grenade Barrage can one shot most classes with 6 simultaneous impacts at 900 range for 2.5K each with no tells and a very fast animation. 

Scrapper is very tanky even specialized in grenades with a good access to blocks and reflections. WvW would benefit from PvP coeficients and cooldowns . But not only for engineer but for any class. 

 

 

 

[Kodama.6453]

24 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

My main gripe about static shield is that certain stun breaks dont work against it. Im guessing that the stunbreak itself hits the shield and instantly stuns you again. Also i would argue HGH is much stronger than most cd reduction traits because of how many skills it effects. For example, there is already a trait that lowers the cd of toolbelt skills and HGH stacks even more cd reduction on them. Im well aware that other classes have ridiculously powerful traits that could use with adjusting. There is a very good reason why alchemy and HGH have been on nearly every meta engineer build in pvp.

I guess you are referencing stunbreaks like lightning reflexes.

 

Yes, it stuns because the stunbreak is hitting the static shield and this means that the user stuns themselves (bypassing the evade).

Shock aura doesn't stun if it is on CD, but if you stunbreak another CC with lightning reflexes and then hit a shock aura'ed enemy with lightning reflexes, you would also get stunned in this case.

 

But as stated by Dadnir before, the skill gets advantages since it is a channelled ability for one user only with less CD. It deserves an advantage somewhere

 

HGH might be pretty strong and affects many skills, but all the skills affected by it still require utility slots. It may affect many, but you can't pick them all in the first place, so I think it really is that bad.

[Ivantreil.3092]

In regards to the complains against the Grenade Kit and HGH. Believe me when I tell you, yes, they are some of our strongest options we have available.

But try to do an Elixirless build and the results are abysmal, the performance is straight subpar trying to do a full kit build (in regards to pvp/wvw) or a gadget build, they simply don't work, they're too weak compared to what the other classes bring to the table, we need HGH if we wanna stand a chance.

And yes, the Grenade Kit has the best AA for Engineer, and that's been like that for over 6 years, but they're also a projectile, meaning it is vulnerable to projectile hate, and requires ground targeting, it's not that easy to hit the target unless they're still in the same location.

[Kuma.1503]

13 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Holo has been meta in pvp since the feb 2020 patch with explosives/nades and occasionally prot, and it was either very strong or meta for all of pof. Scrapper has seen a decent share of time in the meta as well with side node builds, and obviously support in wvw.

 

I know static shield is channeled, but the cc application is on hit just like shocking aura (which is also overpowered). You can activate mistform while rezzing/stomping, but you cannot take any actions after you activate it. With the grenadier trait its really easy to land most of your nades, though the biggest issue is being able to throw nades behind you as it allows engis to put a huge amount of pressure on people while kiting. I know ele has attunements and engi has toolkit skills, my point was that 1 utility gives both invuln and stealth on short cooldowns.

 

If you have been playing pvp/wvw over the last couple years you should know that engineer has been at the top of the meta, and its largely due to these skills and some of the others people have mentioned.

 

You're still listing Engi's strengths in a vacuum and claiming they're out of line without making fair comparisons. 

 

Shocking Aura and Static Shield 

 

Static Shield has the benefit of being a block in addition to it's stun on hit. It can also be recasted for an additional daze. It's purely defensive and no actions can be taken for the duration. 

 

Shocking Aura is the more selfless version of the effect, trading the block for the ability to share this effect with allies. It's also instant cast, can be used while stunned to defend yourself against melee classes, and actions can be taken for the duration. This is much stronger in a teamfight when paired with Aura Share, and it gets even stronger with rune of radiance. 

 

Mist Form and Elixir S

 

This one is no contest. Elixir S gives you the ability to interact with targets while Mist form does not, and it has a shorter cooldown. While mist form was arguably overnerfed to balance out the ability to cast it with rez glyph and overloads (these were later patched out but the legnthy cooldown remained), you can technically rez and stomp with mistform. You simply need to press F before pressing mist form in order for it to work. 

 

Imo Elixir S should also work like this. Most engineers already use the skill in this manner anyway.

 

In regards to the "free" toolbelt effect, this isn't the most fair comparison because you're comparing Elixir S with Engi's class mechanic to Mist form minus ele's class mechanic. When wielding a focus, which is meta for all of ele's popular builds (Fire Weaver, D/F Auramancer, LR, Fresh Air Weaver) you get a second free invuln and projectile reflect/cleanse just from earth attunement. It balances out. 

 

Grenades can be casted behind the user

 

This mechanic is not unique to engi. If you've played staff ele or scepter ele for any amount of time, you'll know that ele also shares this privilege. Here's a list of Scepter skills of the top of my head that can be casted behind you. 

 

Dragon's Tooth

Phoenix 

Shatterstone

Water Trident

Lightning Strike

Blinding Flash

Toss Rock Barrier

 

Scepter Tempest can additionally use Overload Air to deal damage to melee targets while kiting and also giving themselves swiftness, stability, and shocking Aura. 

 

Engi Traits vs Ele Traits

 

Traits like HGH seem busted in a vacuum, but every class has a few nutty master/grandmaster traits. These are often meant to be powerful and gameplay defining. 

 

Powerful Aura is just one example that has been able to define an entire build archetype. Sharing shocking aura to your team is powerful on it's own, but you can also share magnetic aura (you can do this 3x if using warhorn and aftershock) making tempest arguably the most projectile hate-eyy class in the game. 

 

You also have traits like Pyromancer's Puissance which lets ele stack itself to 25 might easily while other classes, including Holo, had their might gen nerfed. WIth Warhorn, they can also effortly share this might to 5 allies around them with a fairly generous duration (this is not abused enough imo). I've won teamfights off of this alone. Sharing 25 might and fury to a Lich while simultanously having the tools to deny the enemy's lich can be gg. 

 

Conclusion

 

This was a long essay just to say "Different classes do different stuff" but hopefully this should help outline that Engi isn't somehow special because it can do all of these things you've laid out. Other classes have their strengths just as engi has theirs. Simply listing them out in and claiming they're broken without making fair comparison just leads to the spread of misinformation. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

58 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

You're still listing Engi's strengths in a vacuum and claiming they're out of line without making fair comparisons. 

 

Shocking Aura and Static Shield 

 

Static Shield has the benefit of being a block in addition to it's stun on hit. It can also be recasted for an additional daze. It's purely defensive and no actions can be taken for the duration. 

 

Shocking Aura is the more selfless version of the effect, trading the block for the ability to share this effect with allies. It's also instant cast, can be used while stunned to defend yourself against melee classes, and actions can be taken for the duration. This is much stronger in a teamfight when paired with Aura Share, and it gets even stronger with rune of radiance. 

 

Mist Form and Elixir S

 

This one is no contest. Elixir S gives you the ability to interact with targets while Mist form does not, and it has a shorter cooldown. While mist form was arguably overnerfed to balance out the ability to cast it with rez glyph and overloads (these were later patched out but the legnthy cooldown remained), you can technically rez and stomp with mistform. You simply need to press F before pressing mist form in order for it to work. 

 

Imo Elixir S should also work like this. Most engineers already use the skill in this manner anyway.

 

In regards to the "free" toolbelt effect, this isn't the most fair comparison because you're comparing Elixir S with Engi's class mechanic to Mist form minus ele's class mechanic. When wielding a focus, which is meta for all of ele's popular builds (Fire Weaver, D/F Auramancer, LR, Fresh Air Weaver) you get a second free invuln and projectile reflect/cleanse just from earth attunement. It balances out. 

 

Grenades can be casted behind the user

 

This mechanic is not unique to engi. If you've played staff ele or scepter ele for any amount of time, you'll know that ele also shares this privilege. Here's a list of Scepter skills of the top of my head that can be casted behind you. 

 

Dragon's Tooth

Phoenix 

Shatterstone

Water Trident

Lightning Strike

Blinding Flash

Toss Rock Barrier

 

Scepter Tempest can additionally use Overload Air to deal damage to melee targets while kiting and also giving themselves swiftness, stability, and shocking Aura. 

 

Engi Traits vs Ele Traits

 

Traits like HGH seem busted in a vacuum, but every class has a few nutty master/grandmaster traits. These are often meant to be powerful and gameplay defining. 

 

Powerful Aura is just one example that has been able to define an entire build archetype. Sharing shocking aura to your team is powerful on it's own, but you can also share magnetic aura (you can do this 3x if using warhorn and aftershock) making tempest arguably the most projectile hate-eyy class in the game. 

 

You also have traits like Pyromancer's Puissance which lets ele stack itself to 25 might easily while other classes, including Holo, had their might gen nerfed. WIth Warhorn, they can also effortly share this might to 5 allies around them with a fairly generous duration (this is not abused enough imo). I've won teamfights off of this alone. Sharing 25 might and fury to a Lich while simultanously having the tools to deny the enemy's lich can be gg. 

 

Conclusion

 

This was a long essay just to say "Different classes do different stuff" but hopefully this should help outline that Engi isn't somehow special because it can do all of these things you've laid out. Other classes have their strengths just as engi has theirs. Simply listing them out in and claiming they're broken without making fair comparison just leads to the spread of misinformation. 

I agree other classes have overpowered skills, the point of this thread was to focus on engineer. Im not about to write a paper about engineer's performance and skill use in every potential situation, nor am i trying to argue about engi vs ele. Im just pointing out things that have kept engineer at the top of the meta despite multiple rounds of nerfs. I think people are looking too much into the comparisons ive made and think that i believe skills should be exactly equal. Static shield just happens to function similar to shocking aura, and mist form just happens to be an ele skill. As another example, I could easily compare CC: zephyr to weavers elemental pursuit or tempests lucid singularity, not because this is about ele vs engi, but because those skills happen to have similar properties.

 

The main issue of static shield is it has no icd, meaning the engi can chain stun you by standing in aoe and prevent stunbreaks. If you dont think that is op, that is fine. I however think it is. Elixir S is arguably op when combined with HGH and potentially tools. Elixirs are the only toolbelt skills that have 2 cd reduction traits. Grenades have one of the strongest auto attacks in the game. They are high damage, aoe, dont require you to face your target, and have synergies with multiple explosives traits. If you have ever played against a decent nade holo you should know how they can constantly keep you pressured just by spamming auto attacks while using about-face.

 

 

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

You're still listing Engi's strengths in a vacuum and claiming they're out of line without making fair comparisons. 

 

Shocking Aura and Static Shield 

 

Static Shield has the benefit of being a block in addition to it's stun on hit. It can also be recasted for an additional daze. It's purely defensive and no actions can be taken for the duration. 

 

Shocking Aura is the more selfless version of the effect, trading the block for the ability to share this effect with allies. It's also instant cast, can be used while stunned to defend yourself against melee classes, and actions can be taken for the duration. This is much stronger in a teamfight when paired with Aura Share, and it gets even stronger with rune of radiance. 

 

Mist Form and Elixir S

 

This one is no contest. Elixir S gives you the ability to interact with targets while Mist form does not, and it has a shorter cooldown. While mist form was arguably overnerfed to balance out the ability to cast it with rez glyph and overloads (these were later patched out but the legnthy cooldown remained), you can technically rez and stomp with mistform. You simply need to press F before pressing mist form in order for it to work. 

 

Imo Elixir S should also work like this. Most engineers already use the skill in this manner anyway.

 

In regards to the "free" toolbelt effect, this isn't the most fair comparison because you're comparing Elixir S with Engi's class mechanic to Mist form minus ele's class mechanic. When wielding a focus, which is meta for all of ele's popular builds (Fire Weaver, D/F Auramancer, LR, Fresh Air Weaver) you get a second free invuln and projectile reflect/cleanse just from earth attunement. It balances out. 

 

Grenades can be casted behind the user

 

This mechanic is not unique to engi. If you've played staff ele or scepter ele for any amount of time, you'll know that ele also shares this privilege. Here's a list of Scepter skills of the top of my head that can be casted behind you. 

 

Dragon's Tooth

Phoenix 

Shatterstone

Water Trident

Lightning Strike

Blinding Flash

Toss Rock Barrier

 

Scepter Tempest can additionally use Overload Air to deal damage to melee targets while kiting and also giving themselves swiftness, stability, and shocking Aura. 

 

Engi Traits vs Ele Traits

 

Traits like HGH seem busted in a vacuum, but every class has a few nutty master/grandmaster traits. These are often meant to be powerful and gameplay defining. 

 

Powerful Aura is just one example that has been able to define an entire build archetype. Sharing shocking aura to your team is powerful on it's own, but you can also share magnetic aura (you can do this 3x if using warhorn and aftershock) making tempest arguably the most projectile hate-eyy class in the game. 

 

You also have traits like Pyromancer's Puissance which lets ele stack itself to 25 might easily while other classes, including Holo, had their might gen nerfed. WIth Warhorn, they can also effortly share this might to 5 allies around them with a fairly generous duration (this is not abused enough imo). I've won teamfights off of this alone. Sharing 25 might and fury to a Lich while simultanously having the tools to deny the enemy's lich can be gg. 

 

Conclusion

 

This was a long essay just to say "Different classes do different stuff" but hopefully this should help outline that Engi isn't somehow special because it can do all of these things you've laid out. Other classes have their strengths just as engi has theirs. Simply listing them out in and claiming they're broken without making fair comparison just leads to the spread of misinformation. 

Having perma super speed is significantly stronger then having any perma auras in most game types.

 

The ability to have 0 cd weapon swaps though kits that are stronger then other classes is an significance effect that is much stronger then any atument swap.

 

This is ontop of your ele vs eng argument. wich is leaving out some massive effect.

Elixir s comes with an f1-f5 skill something you do not see with mist form.

The scpter is an wepon set that the ele is locked to where kits are free swaps.

Pyromancer puissance was nerfed though added an eat might on swap out of fire making it worthless for a lot of builds.

 

A kit is stronger then a wepon swap and is much stronger then an atument swap it been this way for a long time and its always been an broken effect for the eng class.

 

 

 

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Having perma super speed is significantly stronger then having any perma auras in most game types.

 

The ability to have 0 cd weapon swaps though kits that are stronger then other classes is an significance effect that is much stronger then any atument swap.

 

This is ontop of your ele vs eng argument. wich is leaving out some massive effect.

Elixir s comes with an f1-f5 skill something you do not see with mist form.

The scpter is an wepon set that the ele is locked to where kits are free swaps.

Pyromancer puissance was nerfed though added an eat might on swap out of fire making it worthless for a lot of builds.

 

A kit is stronger then a wepon swap and is much stronger then an atument swap it been this way for a long time and its always been an broken effect for the eng class.

 

 

 

 

Fun fact: Dps ele builds that utilize the air traitline (Fresh Air Weaver/Tempest. LR Weaver) have access to high or near-permenant superspeed uptime. They can achieve this by refreshing the trait One with Air every time they reset their Air attumenet with Fresh Air. LR Weaver can do it thanks to it's inherently low attunement CD (further decreased since they run Arcane)

 

( Edit: I also touched on the F1-F5 effect for Elixir S in my response. Comparing Elxir S + Engi's Class mechanic to Mist form without Ele's class mechanic is an unfair comparison )

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

On the topic of kits:

 

Weapon Swaps and attunements are baseline while kits require a utility slot.

Engi one of two classes that does not have a weapon swap. This is done to balance out the power of kits. 

 

Kit skills are weaker than most weapon skills/utilities. You have to take a greater number of actions to achieve the same result other classes can with a single button press. 

 

 

You don't have kit skills like firebrand's Axe 2 that, just with just the Honor Traitline (Traits: X - 3 - 2) + Unrelenting Criticism can:

 

Deal direct damage

Bleed + additional bleeds from trait

Burn

Heal in an area

Provide fury in an area

Provide might in an area

Daze

 

As a result you end up with a class with high APM that is pressing a lot of skills, but overall, is achieving the same end result as other classes. This actually ends up putting people off of the class because as far as they're concerned, why bother learning combos with your kits and making the most out of combo fields when you can just play another class and achieve the same end result with less effort? 

 

Personally I enjoy the added challenge, that's why Engi and Ele are my two most played classes to this day. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Jski.6180]

17 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

Fun fact: Dps ele builds that utilize the air traitline (Fresh Air Weaver/Tempest. LR Weaver) have access to high or near-permenant superspeed uptime. They can achieve this by refreshing the trait One with Air every time they reset their Air attumenet with Fresh Air. LR Weaver can do it thanks to it's inherently low attunement CD (further decreased since they run Arcane)

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

On the topic of kits:

 

Weapon Swaps and attunements are baseline while kits require a utility slot.

Engi one of two classes that does not have a weapon swap. This is done to balance out the power of kits. 

 

Kit skills are weaker than most weapon skills/utilities. You have to take a greater number of actions to achieve the same result other classes can with a single button press. 

 

 

You don't have kit skills like firebrand's Axe 2 that, just with just the Honor Traitline (Traits: X - 3 - 2) + Unrelenting Criticism can:

 

Deal direct damage

Bleed + additional bleeds from trait

Burn

Heal in an area

Provide fury in an area

Provide might in an area

Daze

 

As a result you end up with a class with high APM that is pressing a lot of skills, but overall, is achieving the same end result as other classes. This actually ends up putting people off of the class because as far as they're concerned, why bother learning combos with your kits and making the most out of combo fields when you can just play another class and achieve the same end result with less effort? 

 

Personally I enjoy the added challenge, that's why Engi and Ele are my two most played classes to this day. 

 

 

 

 

 

I am talking about super speed as an support skill there is a real problem of an on an off switch for having the right class in a group and that not good for the game in any way.

 

Kits are enter classes on there own to the point where anet will shift a roll of a class base off of one kit over usages (med kit). Its kind of crazy that any one can think these kits are week on any level as they are all used and have been nerfed becuse of being even stronger then what we have now.

These kits come with an f1-5 skill like all eng uititlys so in some way they dont eat up spaces as the player is given another skill to replaces the utility slot lost. Your also leaving out that kits have near 0 cd on swap where other classes even ele has a cd on there wepon swaps and atuments.

2 wrongs dont make a right and kits are very over powered in effects with no real draw back at least your axe FB has to sit in an wepon and needs to swap to other weapons with cd in-btween where kits dont have this limitations. In a way kits are 5 utility effects in one you may not like all of them but they are still massively more useful then any utility spaces or wepon in the game.

 

Engi is mostly played then ele and will soon get even more play because there is no real challenge to playing the engi class or at least its easier to play then say ele as there no risk for dropping out of your kit to do something else where the ele must pay a price for dropping out of an atument to go into another in way of cd on the last atument. The same is true of wepon swaps on classes. On some level you can say FB "books" are kit like but have  cd and charges for use.

 

What you may be confusing difficultly with is the ability to do more then other classes that eng is able to do. Now that dose come with lots of button pushing but that because your doing more effects per sec then other classes due to kits ease of swaps and the number of effect these kits have.

 

Kits are just too "free" of use for there effect. As well has having super speed as an support effect is too powerful (with no means of counter play) to just have that much duration / ability to apply to others.

[bethekey.8314]

38 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Engi is mostly played then ele and will soon get even more play because there is no real challenge to playing the engi class

 

Blatant salt aside, please share your population data for this claim.

Edited May 8, 2021 by bethekey.8314

[Kuma.1503]

10 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I am talking about super speed as an support skill there is a real problem of an on an off switch for having the right class in a group and that not good for the game in any way.

 

Kits are enter classes on there own to the point where anet will shift a roll of a class base off of one kit over usages (med kit). Its kind of crazy that any one can think these kits are week on any level as they are all used and have been nerfed becuse of being even stronger then what we have now.

These kits come with an f1-5 skill like all eng uititlys so in some way they dont eat up spaces as the player is given another skill to replaces the utility slot lost. Your also leaving out that kits have near 0 cd on swap where other classes even ele has a cd on there wepon swaps and atuments.

2 wrongs dont make a right and kits are very over powered in effects with no real draw back at least your axe FB has to sit in an wepon and needs to swap to other weapons with cd in-btween where kits dont have this limitations. In a way kits are 5 utility effects in one you may not like all of them but they are still massively more useful then any utility spaces or wepon in the game.

 

Engi is mostly played then ele and will soon get even more play because there is no real challenge to playing the engi class or at least its easier to play then say ele as there no risk for dropping out of your kit to do something else where the ele must pay a price for dropping out of an atument to go into another in way of cd on the last atument. The same is true of wepon swaps on classes. On some level you can say FB "books" are kit like but have  cd and charges for use.

 

What you may be confusing difficultly with is the ability to do more then other classes that eng is able to do. Now that dose come with lots of button pushing but that because your doing more effects per sec then other classes due to kits ease of swaps and the number of effect these kits have.

 

Kits are just too "free" of use for there effect. As well has having super speed as an support effect is too powerful (with no means of counter play) to just have that much duration / ability to apply to others.

 

Just so we're on the same page here, are you talking about WvW Med Scrapper? I can't think of anywhere else save for a few Niche cases such as escort missions where AoE Superspeed is considered a highly valuable asset. In Scrapper's case, it's Purity of Purpose in addition to the cleansing that breaks it. The superspeed is just icing on the cake. I don't think anyone here disagrees that it's out of line.

 

I'd like Scrapper to be knocked down a few pegs in WvW myself so Anet can stop using "It's broken in WvW as an excuse to let it remain weak in other game modes. Thankfully they've awknowledged it in the most recent patch so that may be an issue of the past.

 

And if you really think kits are so broken, try playing an engineer build running only kits in competetive modes and see how that goes for you. Then try it in PvE and see if you can compete with the DPS that other classes can put out. 

 

I'll tell you now, it's possible to hit good numbers. Core Condi engi, for example, can do it, but it requires significant ramp up. The boss has to be stationary and not have too many phases where it goes invulnerable or moves or your dps will plummet, and the execution requires to pull it off is a good bit harder than it is for other classes, but with relatively little pay-off for the effort investd. 

 

Kits aren't as broken as you're making them out to be. Having 6 extra skills at the cost of a utility slot sounds good on paper, but in practice, it generally takes 2+ kit skills to equal the effectiveness of your average weapon skill or utility. For example:

 

In the time it takes you to do: Super Elixir > Acid Bomb > Shield 4 double tap to cleanse a total of 4 conditions (w/ inventions) Firebrand could just... Mantra of Lore twice while carrying on with thier rotation with no interruptions. Warrior can just Shake it off to heal, stunbreak, and cleanse 3 instantly. 

 

In the time it takes you to do Medkit 3 > 5 > 4 to burst heal allies around you and provide a few lesser boons, a heal scourge coudl easily pop Shroud 3 and shroud 4 as instant cast skills to provide an equal amount of healing via Transfusion with a chunky barrier on top. Hence why, even as far as defensive/ pug carry healers go, Heal Scourge easily out performs Med Scrapper.

 

 

In competetive modes the greater number of inputs required also introduces counterplay. If you notice an engi trying to go for light finishers to cleanse condis from themselves you can interrupt them to prevent it. Or you an put confusion on them and they'll kill themselves as they attempt to cleanse due to the large number of inputs required. 

 

This is what balances kits.  It takes more time and inputs to achieve the same effect that other classes can achieve. This results in less value over time, and Value/time is the basis of what makes a build competitive or not. 

[Jski.6180]

9 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

Just so we're on the same page here, are you talking about WvW Med Scrapper? I can't think of anywhere else save for a few Niche cases such as escort missions where AoE Superspeed is considered a highly valuable asset. In Scrapper's case, it's Purity of Purpose in addition to the cleansing that breaks it. The superspeed is just icing on the cake. I don't think anyone here disagrees that it's out of line.

 

I'd like Scrapper to be knocked down a few pegs in WvW myself so Anet can stop using "It's broken in WvW as an excuse to let it remain weak in other game modes. Thankfully they've awknowledged it in the most recent patch so that may be an issue of the past.

 

And if you really think kits are so broken, try playing an engineer build running only kits in competetive modes and see how that goes for you. Then try it in PvE and see if you can compete with the DPS that other classes can put out. 

 

I'll tell you now, it's possible to hit good numbers. Core Condi engi, for example, can do it, but it requires significant ramp up. The boss has to be stationary and not have too many phases where it goes invulnerable or moves or your dps will plummet, and the execution requires to pull it off is a good bit harder than it is for other classes, but with relatively little pay-off for the effort investd. 

 

Kits aren't as broken as you're making them out to be. Having 6 extra skills at the cost of a utility slot sounds good on paper, but in practice, it generally takes 2+ kit skills to equal the effectiveness of your average weapon skill or utility. For example:

 

In the time it takes you to do: Super Elixir > Acid Bomb > Shield 4 double tap to cleanse a total of 4 conditions (w/ inventions) Firebrand could just... Mantra of Lore twice while carrying on with thier rotation with no interruptions. Warrior can just Shake it off to heal, stunbreak, and cleanse 3 instantly. 

 

In the time it takes you to do Medkit 3 > 5 > 4 to burst heal allies around you and provide a few lesser boons, a heal scourge coudl easily pop Shroud 3 and shroud 4 as instant cast skills to provide an equal amount of healing via Transfusion with a chunky barrier on top. Hence why, even as far as defensive/ pug carry healers go, Heal Scourge easily out performs Med Scrapper.

 

 

In competetive modes the greater number of inputs required also introduces counterplay. If you notice an engi trying to go for light finishers to cleanse condis from themselves you can interrupt them to prevent it. Or you an put confusion on them and they'll kill themselves as they attempt to cleanse due to the large number of inputs required. 

 

This is what balances kits.  It takes more time and inputs to achieve the same effect that other classes can achieve. This results in less value over time, and Value/time is the basis of what makes a build competitive or not. 

I am talking a lot about wvw for sure as well as spvp (there are a lot of effects that relay have no use in the game in pve) so i try to keep in game types that i both know and that use ever effect. Pop not that good in pve but its unbelievably strong in spvp and wvw. Super speed looks like it would be very powerful in raid and or set pieces fights where your always in combat but you need to stay moving. There are other classes who do give super speed as an support but they are no where on the level of scraper and even holo so that where i tend to come from with that point of view over all.

 

They are not fixing the wvw problem that is the problem so the effect is overperforming.

 

In pve you dont need as many condi clears so your combo of kits swaping is kind of pointless but being able to run med kit alone and fill a support roll IS a problem. The one kit is a full roll its a full class in it self. Your FB is a full class that has to give up effects and eat cd if they mess up. Kits you just dont have that risk.

 

I see a lot of ppl over counterplay where they blast fields when they dont need it but there no reason not to  do so as there kits lack of cd on swap lets them do things for free. A lot of classes have to sit on there conterplay skill and effects till they see the other player use of skills. In a lot of ways if your using an effect before you need to its not conterplay your simply just using skill all of the time leaving no room for any play.

 

If a person always has stab they are not using counterplay to deal with hard cc they are simply immune to stuns. Its not a good way to play or balance the game (no class i think can have perma stab its just an example.)

 

So if your always able to have an effect something that kits let you do due to there near 0 cd on swap you simply always having it making you more immune to the effects and not actively looking to deal with the effect (condis we are talking about mostly here).

 

[Kodama.6453]

@Jski.6180

 

You have a completely wrong picture of engineer kits as it seems.

 

Kits are not "entire classes" on their own or stuff like that. What they are is a weapon replacement.

Engineer has the smallest pool of available weapons in the game by far with just 3 core weapon sets in total (rifle, pistol/pistol, pistol/shield).

 

This fact on top of us not having weapon swap is why we are allowed to have kits.

And med kit is not "a support class by itself". A class is defined by much more, like traits, utility skill sets, etc.

 

Med kit is just serving as our support weapon choice, since, surprise surprise, engineer doesn't have a real weapon for the support role.

Look at the staff from druid, for example. You are not saying we can delete all druid traits and utility skills there, because the staff itself is already a support class by itself, do you?

 

You are extremely overvaluing kits here. They serve the same purposes as the different weapon choices on other classes.

Some kits are purely defined by damage (grenades for example) just like some weapon sets are on other classes (axe/axe from warrior).

Some classes get supportive features from their weapons as well, like guardian having staff or mace as support weapons.

 

Med kit can let us perform the support role, yes. That's no different like a heal druid picking up the staff to enable them healing their allies constantly. Weapons are part of a build and if you want to perform a role, you need weapons which help you for that role, since our weapons make up a big part of our skill bars. Engineer doesn't have a weapon dedicated to support tasks, we got the med kit since kits are weapon replacements instead.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Jski.6180]

5 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

@Jski.6180

 

You have a completely wrong picture of engineer kits as it seems.

 

Kits are not "entire classes" on their own or stuff like that. What they are is a weapon replacement.

Engineer has the smallest pool of available weapons in the game by far with just 3 core weapon sets in total (rifle, pistol/pistol, pistol/shield).

 

This fact on top of us not having weapon swap is why we are allowed to have kits.

And med kit is not "a support class by itself". A class is defined by much more, like traits, utility skill sets, etc.

 

Med kit is just serving as our support weapon choice, since, surprise surprise, engineer doesn't have a real weapon for the support role.

Look at the staff from druid, for example. You are not saying we can delete all druid traits and utility skills there, because the staff itself is already a support class by itself, do you?

 

You are extremely overvaluing kits here. They serve the same purposes as the different weapon choices on other classes.

Some kits are purely defined by damage (grenades for example) just like some weapon sets are on other classes (axe/axe from warrior).

Some classes get supportive features from their weapons as well, like guardian having staff or mace as support weapons.

 

Med kit can let us perform the support role, yes. That's no different like a heal druid picking up the staff to enable them healing their allies constantly. Weapons are part of a build and if you want to perform a role, you need weapons which help you for that role, since our weapons make up a big part of our skill bars. Engineer doesn't have a weapon dedicated to support tasks, we got the med kit since kits are weapon replacements instead.

Well a scraper cant support heal with out a kit that is a roll in it self and its causing anet to shift its roll from a tanky dps to an healing support class. Bomb kit is a melee dps class in it self for a long time till they balned it all though its still able to fill this roll. Nade kit is very much a hybred dps mid range class that you would be hard press to see the likes of even p/p pulling off. Exliser gun kit is a full on utility class having both support and cc (all be it soft cc only). Morder kit is the long range dps class that nothing of eng can get close to preforming atm (they may add in an eleit spec like it but right now its all eng has but it very much changes the class comply).

 

Eng has shield that very much is an support wepon.

 

Med kit is an uititly skills not a full class like healing druid that IS an important differences that why kits are overpower in there effect. The med kit is filling a roll of an full class its beyond just an simple wepon.

[bethekey.8314]

 

 

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Engi is mostly played then ele and will soon get even more play because there is no real challenge to playing the engi class or at least its easier to play then say ele

 

Since you've replied twice to longer posts, you don’t seem interested in addressing this. So I'll do it.

 

Here are the statistics I’m using: https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics

 

Despite being a core profession, engineer comes in last place in terms of characters created (9%). All other core professions make up about 11% of the total characters each. Specifically, elementalist makes up 11%.

 

In terms of total playtime, engineer is just over revenant in last place (a HoT class that wasn’t even available for 3 years) at about 6%. All other core professions fall between ~10% - 16%, with elementalist being 12.63% of the total.

 

Engineer is clearly underrepresented. Why?

 

It’s probably a mix of things. The aesthetic or playstyle might not be as appealing, people might have less success on the class, etc. However, I think it’s safe to say that easier and more successful classes will always tend to have more play than harder and less successful classes. People will always enjoy winning more than losing. This is similar in logic to what you said.

 

So, not only do I believe you make up statistics to suit your own opinion, but I believe your opinion is wrong. The funny part is that, by your own logic of more play = no challenge, elementalist is no challenge compared to engineer. I somehow have a feeling your logic will change now though.

Edited May 8, 2021 by bethekey.8314

[Jski.6180]

Just now, bethekey.8314 said:

 

 

 

Since you've replied twice to longer posts, you don’t seem interested in addressing this. So I'll do it.

 

 

 

Here are the statistics I’m using: https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics

 

 

 

Despite being a core profession, engineer comes in last place in terms of characters created (9%). All other core professions make up about 11% of the total characters each. Specifically, elementalist makes up 11%.

 

 

 

In terms of total playtime, engineer is just over revenant in last place (a HoT class that wasn’t even available for 3 years) at about 6%. All other core professions fall between ~10% - 16%, with elementalist being 12.63% of the total.

 

 

 

Engineer is clearly underrepresented. Why?

 

 

 

It’s probably a mix of things. The aesthetic or playstyle might not be as appealing, people might have less success on the class, etc. However, I think it’s safe to say that easier and more successful classes will always tend to have more play than harder and less successful classes. People will always enjoy winning more than losing. This is similar in logic to what you said:

 

 

 

So, not only do I believe you make up statistics to suit your own opinion, but I believe your opinion is wrong. The funny part is that, by your own logic of more play = no challenge, elementalist is no challenge compared to engineer. I somehow have a feeling your logic will change now though.

 

I was responding in kind to the other poster.

 

Ele is harder to play due to lower hp / def as well as more committal chose in game play then say eng.