ele can be remove from this game without any real consequence.

[Savach.7219]

I was not too lazy to go into the game and take a screenshot to show the opinion of people, not you and me, but the players in general, and you persistently prove that, for example, a warrior doctor deserves a place in your group

[Obtena.7952]

34 minutes ago, Savach.7219 said:

I was not too lazy to go into the game and take a screenshot to show the opinion of people, not you and me, but the players in general, and you persistently prove that, for example, a warrior doctor deserves a place in your group

OK ... that doesn't change what I said. The "opinion of the people" has nothing to do with the fact that you don't need meta to be successful completing instanced content. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... that doesn't change what I said. The "opinion of the people" has nothing to do with the fact that you don't need meta to be successful completing instanced content. 

 

Can we just proclaim Obtena right about this and move on to discussing something other than semantics?  How many threads end up like this, seriously?

[SunTzu.4513]

I think no one is arguing that you can beat any content with any class it don't matter if its fotm or meta or outside of this. But that's not the point here. We have the situation that due to the balancing of ANet every other ele spec is better than core. Also everything core ele brings to a group is imo covered better by an other class. That's not good balancing at all. Yes there will be always a better/best option to choose from. But imo the gaps between specs and classes are way to significant to just ignore it and hammer it down with an argument like you can complete any content with any class does provide nothing usefull to the discussion how to change the actual state of balancing. Overall imo we should not argue abaout semantics and talk more about how the game get in a healtier state of balancing which would lead to a better game experince for everyone ...

[Savach.7219]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... that doesn't change what I said. The "opinion of the people" has nothing to do with the fact that you don't need meta to be successful completing instanced content.

I'll try to explain based on the meta. the resource discusses class preferences based on their capabilities. and with a low assessment of the suitability of this class passing this or that content, it indicates a weak balancing.. not in favor of this class. Q.E.D.

 

you can play as you like with anyone, but if you are ineffective in your place, then most likely you will be kicked from the squad/group, or asked to change the class, because no one wants to babysit an underclass. which will not make your game enjoyable

Edited May 12, 2021 by Savach.7219

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Savach.7219 said:

I'll try to explain based on the meta. the resource discusses class preferences based on their capabilities. and with a low assessment of the suitability of this class passing this or that content, it indicates a weak balancing.. not in favor of this class. Q.E.D.

 

you can play as you like with anyone, but if you are ineffective in your place, then most likely you will be kicked from the squad/group, or asked to change the class, because no one wants to babysit an underclass. which will not make your game enjoyable

You aren't telling me anything I haven't heard before and it changes nothing of what I'm telling you or how the game has worked for 8+ years. If you are getting kicked because you aren't playing optimal builds, that's not a problem with the class. That's a problem with how you are playing the game and choosing who you play with. 

 

If you play how you want with other people that embrace people playing how they want, the balancing is irrelevant. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, SunTzu.4513 said:

I think no one is arguing that you can beat any content with any class it don't matter if its fotm or meta or outside of this. But that's not the point here. We have the situation that due to the balancing of ANet every other ele spec is better than core. Also everything core ele brings to a group is imo covered better by an other class. That's not good balancing at all. Yes there will be always a better/best option to choose from. But imo the gaps between specs and classes are way to significant to just ignore it and hammer it down with an argument like you can complete any content with any class does provide nothing usefull to the discussion how to change the actual state of balancing. Overall imo we should not argue abaout semantics and talk more about how the game get in a healtier state of balancing which would lead to a better game experince for everyone ...

That's a weird perspective, given that as the game evolves and we get more e specs, 'good balance' will only get less likely to be achieved. Better get used to it, embrace the game for how it was designed, and play how you want, whether it meets your 'balanced' criteria or not. 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Savach.7219]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Better get used to it, embrace the game for how it was designed, and play how you want, whether it meets your 'balanced' criteria or not. 

if the game remained at the level of balancing the time of its development, then this topic did not exist.

"play how you want, whether it meets your 'balanced' criteria or not" can say a developer who is not responsible for his work, because of what the project is exposed to risks, but not a player, know your place

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

If you play how you want with other people that embrace people playing how they want, the balancing is irrelevant

there are no such people, accept this reality

P.S.based on your opinion, I can assume that your game does not go beyond the metaivents and farming of world bosses, therefore, your opinion does not carry a semantic load within the framework of this topic

[Milosz.5938]

Sad true.. ele is not good in anything.

But guys... ANet see us in "Great position as suppoters and pdps" soo now with this well planned 'major' update we recived soo much important changes. 

Maybe in next year(s) we will recive something more, something unique or something common... who knows.

But for now, elementalist can be replaced by any other profession because they can give much more utilities for party content. 

[Obtena.7952]

31 minutes ago, Savach.7219 said:

if the game remained at the level of balancing the time of its development, then this topic did not exist.

 

...there are no such people

 

That doesn't make sense ... these class-performance related topics and the current approach to balancing the game has existed since the beginning, yet there are lots of people that play how they want, get teams and be successful in instanced content because they make choices that allow them to do that. That's a fact.

 

What is and is not meta is an irrelevant argument for balance. Attempts to relate optimal performance levels to justify or dispute balance changes are simply not compelling in this game because the game is designed so that you don't need the highest level performance to be successful. This is also a fact. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

That doesn't make sense ... these class-performance related topics and the current approach to balancing the game has existed since the beginning, yet there are lots of people that play how they want, get teams and be successful in instanced content because they make choices that allow them to do that. That's a fact.

 

What is and is not meta is an irrelevant argument for balance. Attempts to relate optimal performance levels to justify or dispute balance changes are simply not compelling in this game because the game is designed so that you don't need the highest level performance to be successful. This is also a fact. 

Its not irrelevant if anet is balancing off of number of use. Meta means they will see one skill or an set of skill used more then others and are more likely to update though skills to have the bigest impact on the balance update. The last update mantas got a massive update by no longer need to charng them but no one was asking for this at all. So what may of happen is ppl used mantas a lot more the other skills and it showed up that anet would get the most impact to the game play by updating them.

 

So non meta classes and skills will often get over looked even if they are stronger or much weaker then other skills.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its not irrelevant if anet is balancing off of number of use.

Depends what numbers you want to talk about ... there are more numbers than just the ones that tell you what is meta and I'm still waiting to see a SINGLE change in this game where Anet says it's because they want it to compete with optimal builds. So yeah ... what is optimal for performance appears pretty irrelevant to balancing class skills from where I sit. If anything, what I see is that Anet refers to things that are overtuned to get a nerf, like Chrono did. How 'meta' was Chrono? If you ask me, meta is the LAST place you want your class sitting if you don't want nerfs. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Depends what numbers you want to talk about ... there are more numbers than just the ones that tell you what is meta and I'm still waiting to see a SINGLE change in this game where Anet says it's because they want it to compete with optimal builds. So yeah ... what is optimal for performance appears pretty irrelevant to balancing class skills from where I sit. 

Its a point of problem with balancing with out communicating to the player base and ele is known for having no communication with anet. So every update we are getting is purly base off the numbers of skill usages.

 

Meta is important to balancing for anet and if your class is in the meta it will get more updates. Ele was in the meta and it got more updates sadly these updates pushed it out of the meta so now we get less updates.

 

Now ele could be just removed from all game types and no one will blink an eye. Ele is an pointless class now.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its a point of problem with balancing with out communicating to the player base and ele is known for having no communication with anet. So every update we are getting is purly base off the numbers of skill usages.

 

Meta is important to balancing for anet and if your class is in the meta it will get more updates. Ele was in the meta and it got more updates sadly these updates pushed it out of the meta so now we get less updates.

 

Now ele could be just removed from all game types and no one will blink an eye. Ele is an pointless class now.

These statements don't make sense and aren't true and if you believe them, you will never understand how this game works. Being sensational does not help anyone. Meta is not the level of performance Anet is balancing ANYTHING to, so it doesn't make sense to use meta as the justification to dispute class changes. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

These statements don't make sense and aren't true and if you believe them, you will never understand how this game works. Being sensational does not help anyone. 

They just nerfed weaver power dmg and the "buff" was to tempest burning not bleed just burning for condi dmg. Its all over the bored what anet is doing and lacks any real reason. You can lie to your self that they do not know the game but its realy they are going after highly used effects to get the most bang for there updates. Sadly that means non meta skills / classes do not get updates.

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

 Sadly that means non meta skills / classes do not get updates.

Except that's wrong because we see changes to non meta skills and classes all the time. You seem to be applying some 'selective reality' to your posts. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except that's wrong because we see changes to non meta skills and classes all the time. You seem to be applying some 'selective reality' to your posts. 

But do you know? How would you know are you a dev? It seems like you views are that you disagree on all point for every thing that is out side of your option. At best your trying to distract from a real problem of the ele class and the end of the ele community for gw2. The class is dyeing and anet is not trying to save it at all.

 

Point here is ele could be remove from the gw2 game and the game will not changes that is the "good places" anet wants the ele class to be in.

[Veta.6174]

To say Elementalist isn't good in the game because you don't see it as much doesn't hold any merit.

 

18 hours ago, Savach.7219 said:

for the gifted, right now a screenshot of the lfg, especially for you

https://pastenow.ru/62b291e43c7b172535d8bb559a390164

I hope you can count

 

The screenshot, labeled as 12.05.2021, isn't useful. There will be an absurd amount of necromancers. Why? Well they just got a patch for their condi side, yesterday. You are going to see a major increase in necromancer population until all the testing, hype, etc, dies down. You may as well say all other classes, other than necromancer, are useless, as well, because I see 7 guardians.

 

I main a necromancer and play an elementalist. What I choose to do depends on the content. It is easier to carry bad/pug groups or do solo content on a necromancer, than it is an elementalist. Necromancers can be tanky, with okay-ish damage, and good survivability compared to an elementalist that is more glass cannon with less self-sustaining tools, but high-end damage. If I am speed running or doing set groups, with people I trust, I run elementalist.

 

Next thing you would need to look at is, yes, there are a lot of necromancers running, most likely for practice/test purposes, but how many of those groups were actually successful, and even, within a decent time period? Unfortunately that is data you can't really see, unless you are there. These are pug group scenarios, which is where a necromancer will most likely thrive. In a preset group, with good/better players, elementalist will be far better in comparison.

 

I would like you to watch to see if the meta actually shifts any within a month or two, not the day of a patch. Data needs to be collected, information pulled, scenarios tested, and it doesn't happen in an hour. See if people are actually wanting a necromancer for any sort of benchmarking. When the hype dies down, the class populations will spread out again.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Veta.6174

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

But do you know?

How do I know what? Anet makes changes to non-meta skills? You can see it when they do it. It' happens all the time. How do you NOT know they make changes to non-meta skills unless you aren't paying attention?

Edited May 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, Veta.6174 said:

To say Elementalist isn't good in the game because you don't see it as much doesn't hold any merit.

 

 

The screenshot, labeled as 12.05.2021, isn't useful. There will be an absurd amount of necromancers. Why? Well they just got a patch for their condi side, yesterday. You are going to see a major increase in necromancer population until all the testing, hype, etc, dies down. You may as well say all other classes, other than necromancer, are useless, as well, because I see 7 guardians.

 

I main a necromancer and play an elementalist. What I choose to do depends on the content. It is easier to carry bad/pug groups or do solo content on a necromancer, than it is an elementalist. Necromancers can be tanky, with okay-ish damage, and good survivability compared to an elementalist that is more glass cannon with less self-sustaining tools, but high-end damage. If I am speed running or doing set groups, with people I trust, I run elementalist.

 

Next thing you would need to look at is, yes, there are a lot of necromancers running, most likely for practice/test purposes, but how many of those groups were actually successful, and even, within a decent time period? Unfortunately that is data you can't really see, unless you are there. These are pug group scenarios, which is where a necromancer will most likely thrive. In a preset group, with good/better players, elementalist will be far better in comparison.

 

I would like you to watch to see if the meta actually shifts any within a month or two, not the day of a patch. Data needs to be collected, information pulled, scenarios tested, and it doesn't happen in an hour. See if people are actually wanting a necromancer for any sort of benchmarking. When the hype dies down, the class populations will spread out again.

 

So necro got an significant buff in the last update with the new exposted debuff in pve but necro is also an support ele brings nothing else but dmg now even its support has fallen way behind.

 

I am not sure how LFG screen shot means any thing most of the time lol.

 

You could remove tempest weaver and core ele from the game right now and it would changes nothing. That is where ele is in this game you can tie "good or bad" to that if you want but to most ele players its out right demoralizing.

 

Maybe we should bring back its all in vain saying?

[Jski.6180]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

How do I know what? Anet makes changes to non-meta skills? You can see it when they do it. It' happens all the time. How do you NOT know they make changes to non-meta skills unless you aren't paying attention?

That dose not mean you KNOW though your just forming an option on something and pushing your option on every one as if it was fact. Your not even letting room that you could be wrong. You should always let room for being wrong on a point of view you hold or your never right (you may never be wrong but that not important as never getting any where in an discussion).

 

Do YOU Obtena think ele is in a good places? And what do you mean by good and or bad?

 

I think ele is in the worst places i has been from the old staff nerfs and the old condi clear reg nerf (1 sec icd from way back). I think this because pure dmg is meaningless in pve now as well as in wvw. You need to bring more to the table and self support / healing group support is not enofe.

 

To me it means the ele class can be removed from this game with out any thing changing because it is pointless to play an ele yes there is a point to you as a player playing the game but the class has become nothingness. And that is anet "good places" for the class.

[Savach.7219]

15 minutes ago, Veta.6174 said:

The screenshot, labeled as 12.05.2021, isn't useful

on what basis did you decide this? Is this your first time hearing about 5 Necromancers in a party who don't need supports at all? maybe you were surprised by the 4 guards in the party? this build trend has been around for a long time. 

and it's not about balance, just open lfg and make sure I'm right.

here's a fact. elementalist is not the best damage dealer in the game and not the best support, so no matter how you drag the build from one side to the other, you will certainly get the worst option, therefore your versatility does not apply to the elementalist.

[Veta.6174]

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

So necro got an significant buff in the last update with the new exposted debuff in pve but necro is also an support ele brings nothing else but dmg now even its support has fallen way behind.

 

I am not sure how LFG screen shot means any thing most of the time lol.

 

You could remove tempest weaver and core ele from the game right now and it would changes nothing. That is where ele is in this game you can tie "good or bad" to that if you want but to most ele players its out right demoralizing.

 

Maybe we should bring back its all in vain saying?

 

So here is where your logic is flawed: necro is better because it can be damage and also support.

 

Now, lets compare. If a necromancer chooses to be damage, you would take a different class, because other damage classes, soul purpose of specialization, will be better. Necros are not topping any damage meters/benchmarking versus other damage classes. In terms of support, you take other support. Scourge is known to not be that great of a support, especially compared to other classes that can support. If you would choose a class that can change/swap or do both supporting and damage, you would also take another class, because there are better options.

 

If necro was as great as you claim it to be, why do most high end raiding or benchmarking guilds run fewer to no necromancers compared to any other class that would provide the same role? There is a difference between how many roles a class can provide versus how good the potential of a set role is.

 

"I am not sure how LFG screen shot means any thing most of the time lol." Then why would you use it as an argument?

 

Tempest and Weaver have both the highest benchmarking damage. They have the highest dps potentials for both power and condi setups.

 

It seems merely like you are just rage posting because you are unhappy. 

[Jski.6180]

1 minute ago, Veta.6174 said:

 

So here is where your logic is flawed: necro is better because it can be damage and also support.

 

Now, lets compare. If a necromancer chooses to be damage, you would take a different class, because other damage classes, soul purpose of specialization, will be better. Necros are not topping any damage meters/benchmarking versus other damage classes. In terms of support, you take other support. Scourge is known to not be that great of a support, especially compared to other classes that can support. If you would choose a class that can change/swap or do both supporting and damage, you would also take another class, because there are better options.

 

If necro was as great as you claim it to be, why do most high end raiding or benchmarking guilds run fewer to no necromancers compared to any other class that would provide the same role? There is a difference between how many roles a class can provide versus how good the potential of a set role is.

 

"I am not sure how LFG screen shot means any thing most of the time lol." Then why would you use it as an argument?

 

Tempest and Weaver have both the highest benchmarking damage. They have the highest dps potentials for both power and condi setups.

 

It seems merely like you are just rage posting because you are unhappy. 

Necro realty is much stronger in an pve environment now. Barrier is stronger then healing as well you cant heal when a player is dead but if you can just keep them alive though barrier your going to lets there own healing top them self off. benchmarking vs what an golem? If so that not going to tell you any thing.

 

Any one can take a screen shot at any time and get very different suggestions of what going on in the game. I am not just committing on your post but the poster after you as well full thoughts and i am not saying every thing you said is wrong.

 

Tempest and weaver are just dmg now and effectively the same type of dmg as well. You could even make the argument that they are the same class with there effects over all. Sadly its not enofe any more you need to do dmg have strong support boons (or barrier) and have a persisting healing effect not burst healing.

 

Any one would be unhappy if anet told you your class ele is in a good places as an excuse to power creep every other class in the game and nerf the ele class at the same time. Its flawed logic by anet and is the death of ele as an class.

 

Do you think anet has pride with the statements about ele in the balancing or was it just thrown together at the last min so it sounds bad and miss worded.veta

 

Do you veta ele is in a good places? And what dose it mean to you if its in a good places or bad places?

[Veta.6174]

5 minutes ago, Savach.7219 said:

on what basis did you decide this? Is this your first time hearing about 5 Necromancers in a party who don't need supports at all? maybe you were surprised by the 4 guards in the party? this build trend has been around for a long time. 

and it's not about balance, just open lfg and make sure I'm right.

here's a fact. elementalist is not the best damage dealer in the game and not the best support, so no matter how you drag the build from one side to the other, you will certainly get the worst option, therefore your versatility does not apply to the elementalist.

 

You didn't read the rest of the post. You look at one part and stuck to it. You are basing a claim off of 5 necromancers in a group is better than an elementalist because it works. This is a pug group scenario. This is random necromancers joining other random necromancers. I stated, if I were pugging, I take a necromancer. If I have a preset group, I take an elementalist. When you look at people min/maxing runs and optimizing fractals, let me know when you see a group with a necro, let alone 5 necromancers. Power elementalist is a desired class, none of the necromancers are.

 

I never said, 5 necro groups did not exist. However, after a patch like this, it is more likely going to be seen for now.