Leechers in Dragonstorm [Merged]

[Ayrilana.1396]

3 hours ago, Styopa.2538 said:

 

Sounds like we have someone here who believes that anything not expressly disallowed is morally right?

Morally right?  In a video game?  
 

Leeching has nothing to do with morals. There are also various definitions of what actually is leeching. For example, if you have players who do 10K+ play DPS while others do 5K DPS, I’d consider the latter group to be leeching as they’re not pulling their weight.
 

If you have people standing around and not participating in pre-events, such as for SAB, Destroyer, Modnir, etc, then I’d consider that leeching as well.  

 

What about if you were doing an event and someone arrives and “helps” for the last 20%. Would they be a leech too?

 

What if you have a 15 minute meta event where the average player does around 100K damage by the end. If a player does that much within the first 5 minutes, and then goes to AFK, would they be leeching?

 

I don’t see how this is really any different from those players who get teleported to the end of jumping puzzles.  They got credit by the work of someone else. And no, AFK players don’t negatively impact the success of a meta. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Karaha.3290]

4 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

I don’t see how this is really any different from those players who get teleported to the end of jumping puzzles.  They got credit by the work of someone else. And no, AFK players don’t negatively impact the success of a meta. 

 

I think the main argument is "AFK players upscale the event",
because the indeed to that by staying at the event and do nothing to help.

But well, practically it doesn't has any effect at al because:
1.) there are simply not enough afk players at an event to cause any trouble the other players and
2.) with a dmg range that reaches from 2k to 20k+ among all participating players, it doesn't change anything if 5 or 10 players do 0 damage.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Karaha.3290

[Ayrilana.1396]

40 minutes ago, Karaha.3290 said:

 

I think the main argument is "AFK players upscale the event",
because the indeed to that by staying at the event and do nothing to help.

But well, practically it doesn't has any effect at al because:
1.) there are simply not enough afk players at an event to cause any trouble the other players and
2.) with a dmg range that reaches from 2k to 20k+ among all participating players, it doesn't change anything if 5 or 10 players do 0 damage.

 

Exactly

Edited June 15, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[BiaNoYami.6310]

On 6/14/2021 at 9:25 PM, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Morally right?  In a video game?  
 

Leeching has nothing to do with morals. There are also various definitions of what actually is leeching. For example, if you have players who do 10K+ play DPS while others do 5K DPS, I’d consider the latter group to be leeching as they’re not pulling their weight.
 

If you have people standing around and not participating in pre-events, such as for SAB, Destroyer, Modnir, etc, then I’d consider that leeching as well.  

 

What about if you were doing an event and someone arrives and “helps” for the last 20%. Would they be a leech too?

 

What if you have a 15 minute meta event where the average player does around 100K damage by the end. If a player does that much within the first 5 minutes, and then goes to AFK, would they be leeching?

 

I don’t see how this is really any different from those players who get teleported to the end of jumping puzzles.  They got credit by the work of someone else. And no, AFK players don’t negatively impact the success of a meta. 

 

It's mind-boggling to me how few people here understand that the complaints about people botting / leeching / whatever you want to call it have little to do with whether or not an event is successful and how quickly and efficiently, and more with the morals. Yes, morals in a video game, because even in this video game there are people behind the characters, and where there are people there ought to be morally correct, respectful behaviour.

 

But going afk while others do the "work" is simply disrespectful. I don't care if the event I am currently in is successful or how fast it all goes. People who already enter as afk or go afk shortly after the beginning don't deserve a reward, end of story.

 

Why should someone who isn't helping be rewarded? On top of being rude, this doesn't even make sense.

 

It's about the principle of the thing.

 

Mesmers opening a portal to teleport others to the end of a jumping puzzle, for example, doesn't even compare. Most of the time the Mesmers offer it themselves, because they want to be kind. And if they did not offer first, perhaps someone at least asked. It's an entirely different situation.

Edited June 17, 2021 by BiaNoYami.6310
Formatting.

[Ayrilana.1396]

49 minutes ago, BiaNoYami.6310 said:

 

It's mind-boggling to me how few people here understand that the complaints about people botting / leeching / whatever you want to call it have little to do with whether or not an event is successful and how quickly and efficiently, and more with the morals. Yes, morals in a video game, because even in this video game there are people behind the characters, and where there are people there ought to be morally correct, respectful behaviour.

 

But going afk while others do the "work" is simply disrespectful. I don't care if the event I am currently in is successful or how fast it all goes. People who already enter as afk or go afk shortly after the beginning don't deserve a reward, end of story.

 

Why should someone who isn't helping be rewarded? On top of being rude, this doesn't even make sense.

 

It's about the principle of the thing.

 

Mesmers opening a portal to teleport others to the end of a jumping puzzle, for example, doesn't even compare. Most of the time the Mesmers offer it themselves, because they want to be kind. And if they did not offer first, perhaps someone at least asked. It's an entirely different situation.

 

Not pulling your weight with DPS while others do considerably more is immoral as well.

 

Taking a mesmer portal, aka cheating, is immoral.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Styopa.2538]

On 6/14/2021 at 2:25 PM, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Morally right?  In a video game?

 

If you don't understand that morality applies in literally every aspect of how you live, you really don't get it, do you?

ESPECIALLY in instances where it's simple/easy to abandon it.

 

Rationalize it however you want.  You're tap-dancing pretty kitten hard.  Who are you trying to convince?

[Ayrilana.1396]

22 minutes ago, Styopa.2538 said:

If you don't understand that morality applies in literally every aspect of how you live, you really don't get it, do you?

ESPECIALLY in instances where it's simple/easy to abandon it.

 

Rationalize it however you want.  You're tap-dancing pretty kitten hard.  Who are you trying to convince?

 

I see morality as being on a much higher level than someone doing something which doesn't affect you and that you dislike.

[Styopa.2538]

1 hour ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

I see morality as being on a much higher level than someone doing something which doesn't affect you and that you dislike.

Yes, you're bitterly defending collecting rewards for others' work.

Obviously your moral standards are unimpeachable.

[Caitir.6947]

If the instance required more engagement, or was indeed even interesting enough to warrant engaging with it if it DID require engagement, you'd solve the AFK problem. But as it is, they're rewarded the same for doing less and the instance is horrendously boring even if you are participating. 

I don't even go to Dragonstorm at this point. It's just not a fun instance. It's a knockback-fiesta with an occasional dash. Essentially: If you've got boons it's trivial and boring, and if you don't then it's still trivial and boring but with added annoyance.

[Ayrilana.1396]

2 hours ago, Styopa.2538 said:

Yes, you're bitterly defending collecting rewards for others' work.

Obviously your moral standards are unimpeachable.

If they meet the threshold for participation then they deserve the rewards. That is how the game was designed. If you disagree then take it up with Anet. 

[Sumpfkraut.7195]

Anet should use the Karma system to make leechers losing karma and gold if they get to many reports in one instance. And make it 100% NOT profitable.

There are also tons of leechers at other events, not only dragonstorm.

[Ayrilana.1396]

7 minutes ago, Sumpfkraut.7195 said:

Anet should use the Karma system to make leechers losing karma and gold if they get to many reports in one instance. And make it 100% NOT profitable.

There are also tons of leechers at other events, not only dragonstorm.

 

Yeah that won't get abused.  Reddit has a karma system and it certainly doesn't get abused...

[Styopa.2538]

18 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

If they meet the threshold for participation then they deserve the rewards. That is how the game was designed. If you disagree then take it up with Anet. 

Did you notice in whose forum we're having this discussion?

[Ayrilana.1396]

19 minutes ago, Styopa.2538 said:

Did you notice in whose forum we're having this discussion?

 

What is this WE'RE?  You entered the thread to counter my disagreement about the usage of immorality.  You haven't participated beyond that and certainly not about Anet needing to change their rules and make leeching against the rules.

 

Leeching is not against the rules.  Changing it to be against the rules will have negative implications throughout the game over something which honestly doesn't really impact you to begin with.  The most impact that they have would be against your personal distaste when you see them standing around.  The impact of the group of players that are being accused of leeching is significantly less than the impact of those who do not pull their own weight although they're participating whom other people can accuse of leeching.  What about those who practically do the pre-events for a world boss by themselves while everyone else sits at its spawn location and only participates in the final event?   What about those who contribute significantly more damage against a boss compared to others?  What about those who contribute significantly more in collection type events?

 

What if the event systems was completely overhauled (it won't happen) and rewards are scaled based on your overall participation compared to others?  Someone who did the most damage to a world boss would get considerably more rewards than someone that just sat there and auto attacked.  Those at the lowest end of the participation would receive very little rewards.  Does that seem fair to you?  Leeching is immoral and that includes all forms of it.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

On 6/17/2021 at 8:38 PM, Styopa.2538 said:

If you don't understand that morality applies in literally every aspect of how you live, you really don't get it, do you?

ESPECIALLY in instances where it's simple/easy to abandon it.

 

Rationalize it however you want.  You're tap-dancing pretty kitten hard.  Who are you trying to convince?

I think that anyone using 'morality' as an argument for behaviour in a video game is being sensational because they know how weak their argument is WITHOUT appealing to morality is to begin with.  Morality does NOT apply to every aspect of how you live because not every decision you make is related to how moral it is or not. 

 

The fact is that whatever we want to call it, it's something we all have to accept happens in this game and to be honest, it's not that big a deal. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Styopa.2538]

On 6/21/2021 at 9:40 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Morality does NOT apply to every aspect of how you live

 

Clearly, it doesn't to you. (shrug)

I'm sure that provides a great deal of ... flexibility... when needing to rationalize behavior.

I hope that works for you.

[Styopa.2538]

On 6/18/2021 at 7:29 PM, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

What is this WE'RE?  You entered the thread to counter my disagreement about the usage of immorality.

 

Actually, I entered the thread originally because it doesn't seem like you know the difference between ethical and moral and I found that amusing.

 

And yes, WE are in an ArenaNet controlled and operated forum.  Ideally, they are always paying attention to what's said here.  So making an argument about the morality (or immorality) of allowing leeching to continue is absolutely contextual and arena-relevant here.

 

Your first post in this thread, as I recall, was something to the effect of "if it's not against the rules it's fine" which is an inherently amoral position to take.   I find people who make such statements usually are indeed, thinking they can somehow rationalize their way around morality.  Morality is absolutely about intent.

 

I think that someone who deliberately leeches - who logs into something intending not to participate, but just to get a share of the rewards - is immoral AF, no matter how technically ethical their act may be.  Someone in leveling greens and yellows who joins a fight THINKING they're going to try as hard as they can and ultimately in fact contributes not much more really than the leeching kitten?  To me that's not a leech, they should be heavily rewarded for their effort.

 

Rage all you like, that's how I feel; I would be very happy if Anet disincentivized that leeching behavior aggressively.

[radda.8920]

If there is one thing that I have learned in my life, it is that the people who spend their lives talking about morality and tolerance are often the ones who have the least 😀

Edited June 29, 2021 by radda.8920

[Ayrilana.1396]

8 hours ago, Styopa.2538 said:

 

Actually, I entered the thread originally because it doesn't seem like you know the difference between ethical and moral and I found that amusing.

 

And yes, WE are in an ArenaNet controlled and operated forum.  Ideally, they are always paying attention to what's said here.  So making an argument about the morality (or immorality) of allowing leeching to continue is absolutely contextual and arena-relevant here.

 

Your first post in this thread, as I recall, was something to the effect of "if it's not against the rules it's fine" which is an inherently amoral position to take.   I find people who make such statements usually are indeed, thinking they can somehow rationalize their way around morality.  Morality is absolutely about intent.

 

I think that someone who deliberately leeches - who logs into something intending not to participate, but just to get a share of the rewards - is immoral AF, no matter how technically ethical their act may be.  Someone in leveling greens and yellows who joins a fight THINKING they're going to try as hard as they can and ultimately in fact contributes not much more really than the leeching kitten?  To me that's not a leech, they should be heavily rewarded for their effort.

 

Rage all you like, that's how I feel; I would be very happy if Anet disincentivized that leeching behavior aggressively.

There are various degrees of describing how bad something such as saying one thing is just bad and another heinous.  Is someone who speeds by 5 MPH bad or heinous?  Something being immoral tends to fall for something that’s really bad and not someone annoying you because they’re simply doing the bare minimum in a video game. You’re exaggerating it out to be something more than it really is. You just now misused it again and used it against someone that simply has a different opinion than you on the matter. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Styopa.2538]

On 6/28/2021 at 11:15 PM, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Something being immoral tends to fall for something that’s really bad

 

Ah ok....so to you "immoral" has to go over a certain bar of importance / meaning?

So stealing a single piece of gum from a candy store...not immoral then?  It's inconsequential.  They're absolutely not even going notice, much less suffer financially for it.

So ...is that a fundamentally immoral act?

 

On 6/28/2021 at 8:03 PM, radda.8920 said:

If there is one thing that I have learned in my life, it is that the people who spend their lives talking about morality and tolerance are often the ones who have the least 😀

 

I'm not saying I'm more moral than anyone else, since that's what you're implying.  And I'm talking about NOT tolerating immorality so ...it seems you either weren't reading carefully, or just had this little epigram saved up to expectorate it when you thought it applied.  Oops?

 

No; what I find is that people tend to act like greedy, thoughtless, selfish little animals, and then desperately rationalize when you hold up a mirror and say "Really?"

 

I'm pretty sure the people who steal Amazon boxes from porches have a very neat rationalization in their head about how they're not actually doing anything immoral, too.

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Styopa.2538 said:

 

I'm pretty sure the people who steal Amazon boxes from porches have a very neat rationalization in their head about how they're not actually doing anything immoral, too.

Really? You are equating leeching ingame to people stealing? yeah ... this is why you're wrong. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Ayrilana.1396]

1 hour ago, Styopa.2538 said:

Ah ok....so to you "immoral" has to go over a certain bar of importance / meaning?

So stealing a single piece of gum from a candy store...not immoral then?  It's inconsequential.  They're absolutely not even going notice, much less suffer financially for it.

So ...is that a fundamentally immoral act?

Please don’t use hyperbole. 
 

There’s an obvious difference between stealing something and putting in the minimum effort in a video game.

[Yggranya.5201]

On 6/14/2021 at 10:25 PM, Ayrilana.1396 said:

I don’t see how this is really any different from those players who get teleported to the end of jumping puzzles.

I'll just chime in to explain the obvious then: the difference is that someone using a portal to teleport people to the end of a JP are doing it on purpose for the benefit of others (unless they are the greedy few demanding handouts) while leechers are doing it solely for their own benefit riding on the shoulders of other players. How could you NOT see the obvious difference.

[Ayrilana.1396]

6 hours ago, Yggranya.5201 said:

I'll just chime in to explain the obvious then: the difference is that someone using a portal to teleport people to the end of a JP are doing it on purpose for the benefit of others (unless they are the greedy few demanding handouts) while leechers are doing it solely for their own benefit riding on the shoulders of other players. How could you NOT see the obvious difference.

You’re comparing apples to oranges in a sense as you’re flipping the sides of the parties in the two situations.  You should be comparing those skipping the JP to those leeching an event. 
 

By your own post, those who do not do pre-events are leechers as well as they’re relying on others to do them in order to get their reward from the meta. All those who do not participate in the pre-events for metas such as Shadow Behemoth, Maw, Fire Ele, Modniir, and so on are just as guilty. Perhaps efforts be directed to those players as well rather than just those at the Dragonstorm meta?

 

If we’re going take effort one takes into consideration, perhaps efforts should be directed at condemning those who just do auto attacks during metas and/or provide very little DPS forcing others having to work harder/longer to make up for it?

Edited July 2, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Bristingr.5034]

On 6/17/2021 at 4:41 PM, BiaNoYami.6310 said:

But going afk while others do the "work" is simply disrespectful. I don't care if the event I am currently in is successful or how fast it all goes. People who already enter as afk or go afk shortly after the beginning don't deserve a reward, end of story.

Then tell Anet to change the reward system and actually make the fight worth doing. Otherwise, afking for 15 minutes to do other stuff and earn 2 gold will continue to happen and in larger numbers as the number of people just quit doing that event.