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Literal hot garbage - viper 10-men alacrimage


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

So, you mean like Berserker F1 spam? I don't see a problem with this. Some Elites have harder rotations than others. If you want a hard rotation, play Chrono, problem solved. Why shouldn't Mirage be a bit brainless? I fail to see whypeople are complaining about this. We wanted Mesmer to be better - this is better. In open world, with food, i now feel like Mirage is close to other professions i play that admittedly don't have to use food to be better than Mirage and melt stuff, but IMO this is a step in the right direction.

Berserker doesn't just spam f1, it has way more apm to pull off decent numbers on pace with other dps classes. And even if you do grind numbers, it still doesn't have the same performance level as others. 

I don't have problem with specs being braindead (I actually do, because I play mesmer and I don't like feeling like I need 2 active brain cells to play it, but it's personal preference), I have problem with specs being BOTH braindead and omega efficient. You pull like 45k/s with it on SH while chilling. 

Like it's fine if you want to play zoom-zoom ranged minion spec that relies on aa spamming, like necro mm or something, but then you accept that your performance level is somewhere beside the dumpster. Current mirage, however, not only outperforms axe mirage (AND broken cChrono kekw on its bosses) dps-wise, which is more complicated and has higher risk due to reliance on movement and rng tp's, but actually at the same time supplies alacrity and might WITHOUT any investment in stats, and it does ALL this by pressing 1 button while being on a ranged weapon and covered by evade frames. Dude, come on... 

Complexity and risk SHOULD be rewarded, not afk gameplay and spam. Less risk = less reward. I really don't get how anyone can disagree with this.

Anyway, I am sure mirage will get nerfed, because pretty much everyone agrees it's a complete clowfiesta of a design right now. But it still bugs me that THIS was approved by balance team to be not just viable but legit efficient at endgame lvl. 

Edit. Just to clarify, I have neither any problems with anything related to OW, nor I care about it. I'm talking about more organised and structured environment. 

Edited by Kondor.2904
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Hahahhahaha, nice bait! Calling me non skilled in hopes i get triggered and start arguing with you! Hahaha, top shelf stuff! 🤣   If you're super serious about it though - the reason someone

Anet never fails to impress its playerbase with the dumbest and the most faceroll design decisions possible. C for consistency 🙃

The change to the alacrity killed a probable fun build using a single staff together with other different weapon set but still able to keep full uptime alacrity with three ambushes. Not funny to watch

1 hour ago, Kondor.2904 said:

This bench is not up to date, the current bench is higher and more simple. Like I said, you simply press Crystal Sands, heal, f2 and staff 4 off cd and spam 1. The more extra actions you perform, the less dmg you do. If you really call this a rotation, well, there's really not much to talk about. 

Although its simple compared every other mes rotation, its still a rotation, this is like you saying reaper has no rotation

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kondor.2904 said:

....

Complexity and risk SHOULD be rewarded, not afk gameplay and spam. Less risk = less reward. I really don't get how anyone can disagree with this.
 

 

Deadeye does more damage than Elementalist through a much simpler "rotation".

I don't think Mesmer should be held to a piano standard that others are not. What matters is having similar benchmarks. We've moved past the quadruple kit era of more complex professions being better..

Edited by Daniel Handler.4816
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8 hours ago, necromaniac.7629 said:

yeah i'm confused as to what he means by hot garbage, he needs to fix his rotation too and try again

There you go

 

Though my issue with this build is how it can provide 10 men alacrity with no investment, while dealing 25-26k dps + 9-28k confusion damage depending on boss.

 

 

The rotation boils down to staff 4 off-CD and spamming 1 with F2 in between. Using Staff 3 or 5 is considered dps loss as you could use that time for channelling your chaos vortex, making this build extremely boring but effective, even when I'm using Aussie ping of 250ms.

 

Its a dumpster fire that's going to attract a lot of hate to mirage simply because of how over-tuned it is.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Deadeye does more damage than Elementalist through a much simpler "rotation".

I don't think Mesmer should be held to a piano standard that others are not. What matters is having similar benchmarks. We've moved past the quadruple kit era of more complex professions being better..

cWeaver, an ultra glass piano, currently has one of the strongest dps in the game, outmatched, I think, only by a post-patch cDeadeye when with allies (which is kinda clunky but nuts too), and I assume it will get addressed as well. 

pChrono was holding a sustained dps throne for quite a while taking into account its  rotation and slow requirement (and is still rather strong with 39k bench if you manage to meet all the requirements to pull it off). Also, while pDeadeye might have the simple rotation, it's still quite punishable and hard to pull off because you have to kneel and position yourself properly, so it still sort of falls under the "risk = reward" category. 

So I don't think think we've moved past the complex-spec-does-more-dmg era, and I don't think we will tbh.

Edited by Kondor.2904
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I think mirage staff is massively overtuned at present, especially for such an undemanding build, skill-wise.

 

I took my "soloing" staff mirage build there (viper's with some trailblazer's, runes of torment, so not optimal for dps purposes) and managed to get appx 20k on the golem (all boons, enhancements etc.).....by putting 3 clones up (1x phase retreat, 1x mirror images), autoattacking and dodging whenever I had the endurance.  i.e. I didn't even bother shattering (even F2) or using any of the other staff skills or even weapon swapping for sigil procs.

 

The survivability of staff has always been good, but I'm a bit concerned that this may make the mirage axe redundant given that there seems to be little upside to picking axe instead of picking staff.  For open world play, the dps on staff (damage-traited but with no weapon switching) seems higher than the dps on axe(traited)/pistol(traited)/torch(untraited).  The non-confusion dps won't drop that much either when others are around, as the torment is applied to the first strike of winds of chaos, with the some of the "confusion" bounces instead granting extra boons to other players.

 

I suppose I get why Anet decided to put the alacrity buff on staff ambush - they wanted to ensure that it wasn't something accessible to chrono, as they thought that chrono was overtuned.  However the consequence is that, in order to pump out 100% alacrity and 25 might, one doesn't even need any concentration (!) - just endurance recovery food.  IMO, putting the alacrity on the staff ambush was a bad choice, especially given how easy it is to increase endurance recovery rate.

 

Personally, I'd have preferred the alacrity buff (even though it is somewhat unthematic for mirage) to be on mirage shatters in some way - that would encourage the mirage to shatter more at least.   Alternatively, for there to be a trait (in inspiration, maybe, to ensure that the mesmer couldn't also take duelling alongside chaos) that would do something like transforming "chaos storm" to "temporal storm" or similar that would add the effect of applying alacrity (along with some other bonuses to the trait).  Or perhaps even the phantasmal warlock (staff 3), although Anet might have some reticence to do so due to the existence of Chronophantasma.

 

IMO, the buff to winds of chaos also highlights the disparity between condi weapon clones and power weapon clones - a decent proportion of one's damage on staff now comes from the autoattacks of the staff clones.  The duration of the condis inflicted by clones should perhaps be lower;  I know this is already the case for the ambush skills, but I think this should really also apply to autoattacks.

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11 hours ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

There you go

 

Though my issue with this build is how it can provide 10 men alacrity with no investment, while dealing 25-26k dps + 9-28k confusion damage depending on boss.

 

 

The rotation boils down to staff 4 off-CD and spamming 1 with F2 in between. Using Staff 3 or 5 is considered dps loss as you could use that time for channelling your chaos vortex, making this build extremely boring but effective, even when I'm using Aussie ping of 250ms.

 

Its a dumpster fire that's going to attract a lot of hate to mirage simply because of how over-tuned it is.

nice, true true from chrono op to mirage op, ironic

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Posted (edited)

I'm sorry, how is this broken when Alacrigade is pumping 24k diviner's power DPS (more than OP)? And double condi ren can cover Alacrity uptime fully in full viper's? Double Alacmirage in full viper's should be competitive with a double alacren setup doing the same. I don't know enough about the classes to know for sure, but I feel like every time purple gets a buff, the world ends.

The only thing I could say is OP is maybe the amount of alacrity uptime, but even then, I don't think it's by much (OP admits to not having 100% uptime). You lose the ability to quickly replenish clones during the desert distortion by taking the regeneration for extra condi damage

Edited by Firebeard.1746
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1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm sorry, how is this broken when Alacrigade is pumping 24k diviner's power DPS (more than OP)? And double condi ren can cover Alacrity uptime fully in full viper's? Double Alacmirage in full viper's should be competitive with a double alacren setup doing the same. I don't know enough about the classes to know for sure, but I feel like every time purple gets a buff, the world ends.

The only thing I could say is OP is maybe the amount of alacrity uptime, but even then, I don't think it's by much (OP admits to not having 100% uptime). You lose the ability to quickly replenish clones during the desert distortion by taking the regeneration for extra condi damage

Power alacrigade is a bad example and clearly overshadowed. You're comparing the max dps from power alacrigade when I didn't even consider the confusion damage on this build. Golem doesn't attack and doesn't trigger confusion damage. Once you tried it in the bosses who constantly get 40-60 confusion stacks you'll see the effect.

 

For your reference, in the past Axe pistol/torch mirage does 29k damage on golem with constant 25 stacks of confusion with considerably more complicated rotation. That equates about 32-40k damage on raid bosses pre-patch depending on their attack speed. Its part of the reason why dps mirage is used in very niche fast attack bosses (SH, Cairn, Sabir) but excels at them.

 

 

 

You raised an interesting point on how it'll fair against double RR renegade. They're currently doing around 36-38k if change GM to RR and dedicate energy to OFA, and maybe lower if the tank is unable to keep the boss still. This means they're still effective on pretty much every bosses. Except their main damage source is torment rather than confusion, meaning their best potential is shown on golem/stationary bosses and can only go lower.

 

Full viper alacrimage on the other hand, can do 35-36k MINIMUM on the slowest attacking boss if you consider confusion, with it able to do up to 44k on Cairn (attack speed 1.8s CD) in the video shown on this thread (there are people who already reach 50k on Cairn) or even near 48-50k on faster attacking Soulless Horror (1.4s CD).

 

Double mirage excels against double RR in this case, even with the torment buff.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

Power alacrigade is a bad example and clearly overshadowed. You're comparing the max dps from power alacrigade when I didn't even consider the confusion damage on this build. Golem doesn't attack and doesn't trigger confusion damage. Once you tried it in the bosses who constantly get 40-60 confusion stacks you'll see the effect.

 

For your reference, in the past Axe pistol/torch mirage does 29k damage on golem with constant 25 stacks of confusion with considerably more complicated rotation. That equates about 32-40k damage on raid bosses pre-patch depending on their attack speed. Its part of the reason why dps mirage is used in very niche fast attack bosses (SH, Cairn, Sabir) but excels at them.

 

 

 

You raised an interesting point on how it'll fair against double RR renegade. They're currently doing around 36-38k if change GM to RR and dedicate energy to OFA, and maybe lower if the tank is unable to keep the boss still. This means they're still effective on pretty much every bosses. Except their main damage source is torment rather than confusion, meaning their best potential is shown on golem/stationary bosses and can only go lower.

 

Full viper alacrimage on the other hand, can do 35-36k MINIMUM on the slowest attacking boss if you consider confusion, with it able to do up to 44k on Cairn (attack speed 1.8s CD) in the video shown on this thread (there are people who already reach 50k on Cairn) or even near 48-50k on faster attacking Soulless Horror (1.4s CD).

 

Double mirage excels against double RR in this case, even with the torment buff.


Another thing to consider is the Alacrigade is also adding to overall squad power DPS with a unique profession specific buff (Assasin's presence).

Well full chrono condi comps still beat those numbers using smoke fields and focus. Are the numbers you're quoting also exploiting fields?

If your numbers are correct, then part of me would be like "yeah it's overpowered" but that's only in the absence of abusing smoke fields. Field effects and trait interactions should be balanced separately and against each other as they can be exploited by other classes in different ways. I.E. I wouldn't nerf all alacmirage damage based on an edge case that might be considered a high-end play strategy, I would balance that strategy against other ones (like burning bolts/fire fields).

TLDR I'd balance this against double condi ren with 0% bd as a reference point. I'm not entirely disagreeing, just asking for more analysis before saying "ZOMG OP!"

Edited by Firebeard.1746
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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:


Another thing to consider is the Alacrigade is also adding to overall squad power DPS with a unique profession specific buff (Assasin's presence).

Well full chrono condi comps still beat those numbers using smoke fields and focus. Are the numbers you're quoting also exploiting fields?

If your numbers are correct, then part of me would be like "yeah it's overpowered" but that's only in the absence of abusing smoke fields. Field effects and trait interactions should be balanced separately and against each other as they can be exploited by other classes in different ways. I.E. I wouldn't nerf all alacmirage damage based on an edge case that might be considered a high-end play strategy, I would balance that strategy against other ones (like burning bolts/fire fields).

TLDR I'd balance this against double condi ren with 0% bd as a reference point. I'm not entirely disagreeing, just asking for more analysis before saying "ZOMG OP!"

No smoke field involved, and winds of chaos/chaos vortex has NO finisher. You can see my confusion stacks purely base on ambush from clone/me, crystal mirror and F2.

 

In actual raid setting you could use staff 5 on mere chance your allies using projectile will be able to get extra confusion. But you get 50 confusion stacks on boss without any field interaction.

 

Also I'm not quoting these numbers out of the blue.

 

Edited by NICENIKESHOE.7128
found a better video
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4 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm sorry, how is this broken when Alacrigade is pumping 24k diviner's power DPS (more than OP)? And double condi ren can cover Alacrity uptime fully in full viper's? Double Alacmirage in full viper's should be competitive with a double alacren setup doing the same. I don't know enough about the classes to know for sure, but I feel like every time purple gets a buff, the world ends.

The only thing I could say is OP is maybe the amount of alacrity uptime, but even then, I don't think it's by much (OP admits to not having 100% uptime). You lose the ability to quickly replenish clones during the desert distortion by taking the regeneration for extra condi damage

I agree. People have a very fixed image of Mesmer. It needs to have difficult rotation and not be best at anything.

 

Guardians and Revenants may slay at many roles but it doesn’t matter, but once we get one simple build rotation for Mesmer with nice outcome ppl are shook

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Posted (edited)

 Ugh nothing is worse than a brain-dead playstyle.  Did a dev sit down and map out how a person would optimally use the new staff or did they just add the desired buff to a random weapon skill and be done with it.

Even worse, this effectively kills the axe mirage playstyle for instanced PvE.

Edited by HappyHubris.1096
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Posted (edited)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j2Z0oZbAho

hmm...yup. 52k on SH with 2 alacrimage maintaining full alacrity, way outclassed the two condi rev in same fight that's hitting 35k (who are not using RR btw).

Definitely overtuned with confusion damage

 

There are 2 options to adjust this, with one option out of two but not both at the same time:

  1. Reduce confusion duration on chaos vortex to 5-6s baseline in PvE only from 8s. It'll reduce the inflated numbers while still keeping decent dps on most bosses.
  2. Alternatively reduce to 2s alacrity on ambush so you actually need to trade viper with seraph (or other sigil than energy with concentration) for boon duration. 

If both occurred at the same time staff mirage would fall off considerably and ended up in same situation as axe mirage, where it's only applicable to limited bosses.

Edited by NICENIKESHOE.7128
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Double staff mirage was strong build before balance, now it is insane. I think with trailblazer stats, you are able to kill solo any boss including any legendaries. 

It is going to be nerfed, that is definite. 

Giving alacrity to staff ambush was not a good idea at the beginning. Anet had to know that. I'd put alacrity on mirage trait, for example, same line with infinite horizon. If you want to get alacrity, you should sacrifice infinite horizon. And you will able to use alacrity at underwater combat and with another weapon, ofc with sacrificing dps. 

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12 minutes ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j2Z0oZbAho

hmm...yup. 52k on SH with 2 alacrimage maintaining full alacrity, way outclassed the two condi rev in same fight that's hitting 35k (who are not using RR btw).

Definitely overtuned with confusion damage

 

There are 2 options to adjust this, with one option out of two but not both at the same time:

  1. Reduce confusion duration on chaos vortex to 5-6s baseline in PvE only from 8s. It'll reduce the inflated numbers while still keeping decent dps on most bosses.
  2. Alternatively reduce to 2s alacrity on ambush so you actually need to trade viper with seraph (or other sigil than energy with concentration) for boon duration. 

If both occurred at the same time staff mirage would fall off considerably and ended up in same situation as axe mirage, where it's only applicable to limited bosses.

It already falls off in non-raid content.

At this point we need a split in pve for raid/fractals/open world. 

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1 hour ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

It already falls off in non-raid content.

At this point we need a split in pve for raid/fractals/open world. 

A split for open world? Removing retal affected those players more since that cut their dps in half.

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6 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

A split for open world? Removing retal affected those players more since that cut their dps in half.

 

 

 

 

That said, alacmirage is completely over-performing. I mean the class hits 20k+ dps pre confusion factored in FROM AUTOATTACKS alone on Carin (https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/nbuoat/i_think_staff_mirage_is_overpowered/ )

 

Boons are also out of control, 3s base alacrity and 15s of 8 might on a class which uses it's ambush skill every 2.5-3.3 seconds is just insane. That's permanent alacrity without ANY investment into concentration, far to high, cut this to 1.5s or 2s and force mirages to take concentration as mentioned by NIKE.

 

Leaving aside the fact that Mirage is now threading on chono territory and actually being a favor of more variety as far as boon supports goes myself, this needs a bit fine-tunig.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

 Ugh nothing is worse than a brain-dead playstyle.  Did a dev sit down and map out how a person would optimally use the new staff or did they just add the desired buff to a random weapon skill and be done with it.

Even worse, this effectively kills the axe mirage playstyle for instanced PvE.


Hold up. No. I think every class should have simpler and more complex builds. Not everyone wants to roll their face across a keyboard constantly. I mean Chrono used to be meta for quick and alac, but now everyone loves alacrigade/qb combo. A reason I hear all the time is that it's not difficult to provide your boon, whereas the classic diviner's chrono rotation was a bit annoying and clutch to learn.

Most of mesmer's current builds are super complicated rotations. Please, leave this ONE alone. I'm sure condi chrono stacking will still be a thing. And you still have condi axe mirage for pure DPS (assuming staff/staff becomes appropriately balanced). POwer chrono is unaltered in its rotation and STM is still complex.

Edited by Firebeard.1746
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It's fine if it has DPS, but you're talking about a build that is inherently lower risk (ranged) with DPS on par with the older melee axe builds that also puts out permanent alacrity.

I don't think it will last very long in this state, either required boon duration will go up (such that you either run high boon duration or two of them per squad) or the damage will be cut.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/12/2021 at 10:00 PM, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

There you go

 

Though my issue with this build is how it can provide 10 men alacrity with no investment, while dealing 25-26k dps + 9-28k confusion damage depending on boss.

 

 

The rotation boils down to staff 4 off-CD and spamming 1 with F2 in between. Using Staff 3 or 5 is considered dps loss as you could use that time for channelling your chaos vortex, making this build extremely boring but effective, even when I'm using Aussie ping of 250ms.

 

Its a dumpster fire that's going to attract a lot of hate to mirage simply because of how over-tuned it is.

First of all, mesmer staff has been a target of hatred by party members for a very long time. I've wished it to be viable in group contents for years, and I've seen many forums discussing about that as well. Whatever changes that may or may not be made on the staff mirage, please don't make staff unusable in group contents. The weapon provides unique animation and gives different taste of gameplay.

 

Anyway, it feels wrong talking about the performance of alac mirage over these videos where alac is provided 100% of time by a different source.

Also the trickiest thing about alac mirage is that only allies hit by the staff ambush skill get alac. It gives good alac to the whole party when everyone's stacked together, but this does not happen in some encounters or if you play in a less organized group--Not everything has to be adjusted based on how they're performed under perfect conditions in a perfectly organized group because not everyone enjoy playing that way.

I don't really see how alac mirage overshadows other specializations that can provide 100% alac uptime more reliably with very good dps. These specialization can do this with ranged weapons as well.

Edited by Farball.7260
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54 minutes ago, Farball.7260 said:

First of all, mesmer staff has been a target of hatred by party members for a very long time. I've wished it to be viable in group contents for years, and I've seen many forums discussing about that as well. Whatever changes that may or may not be made on the staff mirage, please don't make staff unusable in group contents. The weapon provides unique animation and gives different taste of gameplay.

 

Anyway, it feels wrong talking about the performance of alac mirage over these videos where alac is provided 100% of time by a different source.

Also the trickiest thing about alac mirage is that only allies hit by the staff ambush skill gets alac. It gives good alac to the whole party when everyone's stacked together, but this does not happen in some encounters or if you play in a less organized group--Not everything has to be adjusted based on how they're performed under perfect conditions in a perfectly organized group because not everyone enjoy playing that way.

I don't really see how alac mirage overshadows other classes that can provide 100% alac uptime more reliably with very good dps.

"Mirage

  • Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush): The projectile now only strikes enemies. Up to 10 nearby allies gain boons. The boons gained are now might (8 stacks, 15-second duration in PvE; 4 stacks, 6-second duration in PvP and WvW) and alacrity (3-second duration). (Note: Boons are applied near the mesmer only, not near clones.)"

 

The range is 360 around the mirage himself. You don't need projectiles to hit. If you don't bother reading patch note, please at least log into the game and try it out before baselessly defending it. 360 around mirage is much more lenient than STM 240 AoE quickness on chrono as well as requirement for 2-3 seconds tickdown from chrono wells.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmM4jngjhhQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j2Z0oZbAho

Mirage is the only source of alacrity in these videos, 100% uptime which contradicts what you said.

 

No class in GW2 has ever achieve >40k damage as a support/boon role, even as current state where torment inflate all classes damage (including RR ren), even as condi/power FB in the past or current is spitting out random boons on top of their dps. Very limited builds post-patch is actually able to achieve past 40k damage on ACTUAL bosses and they're all DPS, and 40k is highly impractical or actually not achieveable on actual bosses pre-patch.

 

In case you don't raid...minus usual support roles (druid/healer/quickness w/o alacrity), the remaining 6-7 dps/banner is meant to do average 15-20k dps per person for easy clearance on actual bosses. By what basis/evidence can you claim it doesn't overshadow when stacking 2 alacrimage can safely give 100% alacrity while secure >25k dps each for slow boss and >50k dps for fast bosses?

 

Please don't jump to conclusion and think I just hate on mirage, I played all mesmer raid builds (dps/support/experimental builds) since HoT and played enough on other classes to know when a mesmer build is overtuned. Defending this build with wrong information will only get mirage wrongfully nerfed by suggestions from people who don't play the class at all.

  1. Toning down confusion duration will only reduce the significantly inflated numbers on fast attack boss (like Cairn/SH that 50-60% of mirage dps comes from confusion) while doing much less to dps on slow bosses (15-25% etc from confusion on Deimos/Sab). This allows mirage to still have a viable dps role in most bosses
  2. Or reduce alacrity uptime and force mirage to run concentration, which make it more of a hybrid like your alacrigade but with condi rather than power
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Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2021 at 2:20 AM, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

"Mirage

  • Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush): The projectile now only strikes enemies. Up to 10 nearby allies gain boons. The boons gained are now might (8 stacks, 15-second duration in PvE; 4 stacks, 6-second duration in PvP and WvW) and alacrity (3-second duration). (Note: Boons are applied near the mesmer only, not near clones.)"

 

The range is 360 around the mirage himself. You don't need projectiles to hit. If you don't bother reading patch note, please at least log into the game and try it out before baselessly defending it. 360 around mirage is much more lenient than STM 240 AoE quickness on chrono as well as requirement for 2-3 seconds tickdown from chrono wells.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmM4jngjhhQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j2Z0oZbAho

Mirage is the only source of alacrity in these videos, 100% uptime which contradicts what you said.

 

No class in GW2 has ever achieve >40k damage as a support/boon role, even as current state where torment inflate all classes damage (including RR ren), even as condi/power FB in the past or current is spitting out random boons on top of their dps. Very limited builds post-patch is actually able to achieve past 40k damage on ACTUAL bosses and they're all DPS, and 40k is highly impractical or actually not achieveable on actual bosses pre-patch.

 

In case you don't raid...minus usual support roles (druid/healer/quickness w/o alacrity), the remaining 6-7 dps/banner is meant to do average 15-20k dps per person for easy clearance on actual bosses. By what basis/evidence can you claim it doesn't overshadow when stacking 2 alacrimage can safely give 100% alacrity while secure >25k dps each for slow boss and >50k dps for fast bosses?

 

Please don't jump to conclusion and think I just hate on mirage, I played all mesmer raid builds (dps/support/experimental builds) since HoT and played enough on other classes to know when a mesmer build is overtuned. Defending this build with wrong information will only get mirage wrongfully nerfed by suggestions from people who don't play the class at all.

  1. Toning down confusion duration will only reduce the significantly inflated numbers on fast attack boss (like Cairn/SH that 50-60% of mirage dps comes from confusion) while doing much less to dps on slow bosses (15-25% etc from confusion on Deimos/Sab). This allows mirage to still have a viable dps role in most bosses
  2. Or reduce alacrity uptime and force mirage to run concentration, which make it more of a hybrid like your alacrigade but with condi rather than power



Your second video has renegades in it, are you sure that they're not helping with alacrity? Also it's not doing more than 40k consistently, rated DPS is 36k for the highest staff mirage. Also, while we're talking condi DPS benchmarks, axe mirage target for SH is 35k. One of the staff alacmages BARELY outdpsed it, the other fell below, significantly (I'm assuming it's a staff, don't see any of the twirling.).

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

The condi rens also barely fell below the top  staff/staff mirage and outperformed the other. I feel like your post, especially as it relates to the second video is a gross exaggeration. I'm not saying Alacmage shouldn't be balanced if it's overtuned, but I hope the devs have the presence of mind to clearly analyze community claims, to account for over-exaggeration from haters

The same goes for the first video: rated DPS isn't 40k, it's high 30s. A thief is also out-performing 2 of the other mirages. So it's very important when we analyze this DPS data that we're also comparing the best against the best. Because the averages on the alacmages don't look that impressive. It could also be the case that the other mirages are sacrificing stats and/or gameplay to be the primary alacrity providers. Just like doing 40k DPS and boon support would be OP, it would be underpowered to not be the dedicated  support and underperform against other classes in full viper's.

When grading confusion condi classes, they should be compared by average DPS output of the spec against other specs, not by confusion spikes. Most of your hyperbole is staring at the confu spikes, not overall DPS. Look at the meters at the end of the fights. Though I would argue it's fair for confusion to outperform on some bosses as long as it's lagging on others, because that's what confusion is supposed to be: a penalty on actions. The condi loses its flavor if that's not the case, and if it's solely balanced on its best bosses, then it underperforms on all others.

Edited by Firebeard.1746
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1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:



Your second video has renegades in it, are you sure that they're not helping with alacrity? Also it's not doing more than 40k consistently, rated DPS is 36k for the highest staff mirage. Also, while we're talking condi DPS benchmarks, axe mirage target for SH is 35k. One of the staff alacmages BARELY outdpsed it, the other fell below, significantly (I'm assuming it's a staff, don't see any of the twirling.).

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

The condi rens also barely fell below the top  staff/staff mirage and outperformed the other. I feel like your post, especially as it relates to the second video is a gross exaggeration. I'm not saying Alacmage shouldn't be balanced if it's overtuned, but I hope the devs have the presence of mind to clearly analyze community claims, to account for over-exaggeration from haters

The same goes for the first video: rated DPS isn't 40k, it's high 30s. A thief is also out-performing 2 of the other mirages. So it's very important when we analyze this DPS data that we're also comparing the best against the best. Because the averages on the alacmages don't look that impressive. It could also be the case that the other mirages are sacrificing stats and/or gameplay to be the primary alacrity providers. Just like doing 40k DPS and boon support would be OP, it would be underpowered to not be the dedicated  support and underperform against other classes in full viper's.

When grading confusion condi classes, they should be compared by average DPS output of the spec against other specs, not by confusion spikes. Most of your hyperbole is staring at the confu spikes, not overall DPS. Look at the meters at the end of the fights. Though I would argue it's fair for confusion to outperform on some bosses as long as it's lagging on others, because that's what confusion is supposed to be: a penalty on actions. The condi loses its flavor if that's not the case, and if it's solely balanced on its best bosses, then it underperforms on all others.

Confusion damage has always been miscalculate in map data (coloured one that calculate everyone), and you need to read personal data to get accurate measure.

 

Any mesmer dps raider would've know that tbh. Your whole argument falls apart when you read wrong data and base on that.

 

Look carefully at the personal dps in those video, they're clearly 44k dps and 52k. It's not hyperbole, you are just not familiar with arcdps.

Edited by NICENIKESHOE.7128
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