Holosmith (both grenade and prot) need a look at.

[Arken.3725]

Hello there my fellow pvpers, Arken here (still am on hiatus) just chiming in after watching a bunch of streams to give  a bit of feedback.  As it stands, the general consensus is that both Holosmith and Scourge are the optimal S-tier specs currently.  I want to try to give an in depth analysis on why this is.  Everything I'm about to say is completely objective, I am only stating facts that are available for all to see(regarding skills/traits, ect).

 

 

Holosmith(Grenade Variant):  This one is a little more difficult to figure out.  A combination of very fast and easy to land AoE(both in melee and ranged) that exceed some melee auto-attack third chains, one can see why grenades are such a strong force.  Here's a small comparison as to why the JUST the auto-attack grenade is so strong.  On a comparative power build on say Guardian running Sword, the total damage on the third chain is 843 whereas the dmg from JUST the auto-grenade is 834.  This single skill(not counting the others, some of which are stronger) which can be utilized at both ranged or melee allows such massive dmg at relatively no risk to the user.  Combine this with incredible (potentially 75% uptime) superspeed access, stealth, and strong auto's, this is easily seen as the go-to for any roamer.  

 

Protection Variant:  This one very easy to figure out.  With massive access to protection and condition-cleanse with bruiser-level damage, this is also the go-to for any on-point build.  Nothing competes with the sheer amount of mortar-spam and mitigation from both sources being so plentiful.  With the changes to resolution, you'll find this specialization to be even stronger with more condition-resistance than what we saw before.

 

I haven't played in a while but looking at all the changes(or lack there of), this, along with Scourge seem to be causing too many problems.  Make no mistake, this isn't a discussion asking for minor adjustments.  These need heavy changes for the betterment of this game.  You can't have a class that has incredible mobility, bruiser-like sustain with berserker-like dmg that can be spammed in an aoe to be allowed to run amok.  Less needs to be said about the Protection variant with the same magnitude of changes needed.

[Pengu.7481]

7 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

These need heavy changes for the betterment of this game.  You can't have a class that has incredible mobility, bruiser-like sustain with berserker-like dmg that can be spammed in an aoe to be allowed to run amok.  Less needs to be said about the Protection variant with the same magnitude of changes needed.

this is false tho, holo dosnt have beserker-like dmg when they run protection and no explosive traitline or nades for that matter. sure its sustain is good but on condi cleanse side scrapper is far superior. 

 

it  needs heavy changes sure. nerf the sustain and buff the dmg so it actually fits the theme of "if u go too far with it u will blow urself up" . now its just wet noodle dmg while still blowing u the kitten up if u get too greedy. 

[Arken.3725]

1 minute ago, toxic.3648 said:

this is false tho, holo dosnt have beserker-like dmg when they run protection and no explosive traitline or nades for that matter. sure its sustain is good but on condi cleanse side scrapper is far superior. 

 

it  needs heavy changes sure. nerf the sustain and buff the dmg so it actually fits the theme of "if u go too far with it u will blow urself up" . now its just wet noodle dmg while still blowing u the kitten up if u get too greedy. 

It certainly does have berserker-like damage.  When you can literally spam aoe's on top of your self with melee-like damage(like I mentioned) that's literally berserker-like dmg, just in an aoe.  The idea of a RANGED AoE skill equaling melee makes zero sense to me and you haven't proven otherwise.  

 

Not heavy changes, nerfs.  There isn't any compensation needed here.  This.....is....brooooken.

[Pengu.7481]

Just now, Arken.3725 said:

It certainly does have berserker-like damage.  When you can literally spam aoe's on top of your self with melee-like damage(like I mentioned) that's literally berserker-like dmg, just in an aoe.  The idea of a RANGED AoE skill equaling melee makes zero sense to me and you haven't proven otherwise.  

 

Not heavy changes, nerfs.  There isn't any compensation needed here.  This.....is....brooooken.

again, as a holo main since POF i can tell u for sure that holo dmg is laughable when u go protection build. hell even nades are a kittening joke at this point were nade kit 2 is more value than grenade barrage . if u wanna see beserker dmg go slb, power DH . those guys can 1 shot u, even through downstate 

theres nothin broken here. it feels balanced if anything. 

[Spellhunter.9675]

56 minutes ago, toxic.3648 said:

as a holo main since POF

 

56 minutes ago, toxic.3648 said:

nothin broken here. it feels balanced if anything. 

It is balanced since PoF, isn't it? xD

[Crozame.4098]

Tried both Nade Holo and Prot holo the previous season:

First about Nade holo:

1) You need to maintain high level of heat to do high dmg, therefore, camping in nade and do 11111111 does not work.

2) It has quite a few strong counters (that's before the 11 May patch, havent got time to play after the patch tho).

 

Second about Prot holo:

1) It has strong node pressure, but the counter is to just dont stand on those AOEs... This is like ppl defending Lich AAs or mirage daze and PB -- just LoE. IN this case, this is even easier, just run away a little bit.

2) It has low chase potential -- sure it wins the node, but in most cases hard to secure a kill of the opponent is half decent.

 

I think Nades at the moment is not over performing given the meta. Prot holo is stronger, but is less useful outside the organised 5v5.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Crozame.4098

[Pengu.7481]

2 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

 

It is balanced since PoF, isn't it? xD

i never said it was balanced since pof, if u go back in my post history u will see ive been calling for nerfs to holo more times than asking for buffs (which ive never asked for iirc) 

[Math.5123]

1 hour ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Tried both Nade Holo and Prot holo the previous season:

First about Nade holo:

1) You need to maintain high level of heat to do high dmg, therefore, camping in nade and do 11111111 does not work.

2) It has quite a few strong counters (that's before the 11 May patch, havent got time to play after the patch tho).

 

Second about Prot holo:

1) It has strong node pressure, but the counter is to just dont stand on those AOEs... This is like ppl defending Lich AAs or mirage daze and PB -- just LoE. IN this case, this is even easier, just run away a little bit.

2) It has low chase potential -- sure it wins the node, but in most cases hard to secure a kill of the opponent is half decent.

 

I think Nades at the moment is not over performing given the meta. Prot holo is stronger, but is less useful outside the organised 5v5.

There's not a single build that can force prot holo off the node. The build barely dies 2v1 currently. You don't need to secure kills when nothing can contest you in the duel.

[Crozame.4098]

1 hour ago, Math.5123 said:

There's not a single build that can force prot holo off the node. The build barely dies 2v1 currently. You don't need to secure kills when nothing can contest you in the duel.

Thats prolly true, but maybe spite necro and condi scourge can force its off node 1v1. Regarding 2v1, I think thief + mirage can do it. sim-em SLB can pressure it pre patch, but prolly not after the sic em nerf. Then the counter is rotate~ 

[Ghos.1326]

5 hours ago, toxic.3648 said:

again, as a holo main since POF i can tell u for sure that holo dmg is laughable when u go protection build. hell even nades are a kittening joke at this point were nade kit 2 is more value than grenade barrage . if u wanna see beserker dmg go slb, power DH . those guys can 1 shot u, even through downstate 

theres nothin broken here. it feels balanced if anything. 

Holo damage while running prot holo is not laughable. This is the exact mistake people make when seeing that players run this type of build, the mistake that gets them killed. Holo by default has higher damage due to its minor traits. sword damage is nothing to sneeze at either, it's incredibly strong. 

[Pengu.7481]

57 minutes ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Holo damage while running prot holo is not laughable. This is the exact mistake people make when seeing that players run this type of build, the mistake that gets them killed. Holo by default has higher damage due to its minor traits. sword damage is nothing to sneeze at either, it's incredibly strong. 

if u die to a prot holo u absolutely deserve it. photon forge skills got big telegraphs and dodge sword when u see them leave forge. they are about as threatening as the old bunker scrapper b4 that got canned. only minor trait that boost dmg is from heat levels. so they wont hit "hard" all the time either. then again, even at 150 heat its still lacks alot to be desired tbh. 

cc chain them or condiburst them , they are not immune to condi's like most ppl think. and since their dmg is wet noodle levels u got nothing to fear in that department either. 

i can see them work wonders in teamfights tho, massive cc spam and some aoe's to cover the point will always be good there. but new mes with staff ambush or spellbreaker will have np wiping the floor with a holo's face

Edited May 13, 2021 by toxic.3648

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Thats prolly true, but maybe spite necro and condi scourge can force its off node 1v1. Regarding 2v1, I think thief + mirage can do it. sim-em SLB can pressure it pre patch, but prolly not after the sic em nerf. Then the counter is rotate~ 

Sic em and OWP was nerfed in PvE only

[Leonidrex.5649]

23 minutes ago, toxic.3648 said:

if u die to a prot holo u absolutely deserve it. photon forge skills got big telegraphs and dodge sword when u see them leave forge. they are about as threatening as the old bunker scrapper b4 that got canned. only minor trait that boost dmg is from heat levels. so they wont hit "hard" all the time either. then again, even at 150 heat its still lacks alot to be desired tbh. 

cc chain them or condiburst them , they are not immune to condi's like most ppl think. and since their dmg is wet noodle levels u got nothing to fear in that department either. 

i can see them work wonders in teamfights tho, massive cc spam and some aoe's to cover the point will always be good there. but new mes with staff ambush or spellbreaker will have np wiping the floor with a holo's face

you die to a holo when you have the audacity to stand to a node next to it and not run with your tail between your legs.
strategy off " give up a node so you dont die no matter what build you play "... amazing.
Holo the best at side-noding, while also being amazing at team-fights, while also being one of the faster rotating classes.
Hmm, what was the weakness of the class again? I forgot.
Ah right, it was never there. 
Jack of all trades, master of all. 

[crewthief.8649]

43 minutes ago, toxic.3648 said:

if u die to a prot holo u absolutely deserve it. photon forge skills got big telegraphs and dodge sword when u see them leave forge. they are about as threatening as the old bunker scrapper b4 that got canned. only minor trait that boost dmg is from heat levels. so they wont hit "hard" all the time either. then again, even at 150 heat its still lacks alot to be desired tbh. 

cc chain them or condiburst them , they are not immune to condi's like most ppl think. and since their dmg is wet noodle levels u got nothing to fear in that department either. 

i can see them work wonders in teamfights tho, massive cc spam and some aoe's to cover the point will always be good there. but new mes with staff ambush or spellbreaker will have np wiping the floor with a holo's face

Big telegraphs on huge damage does not mean there is no need for a nerf. Just ask Warrior.

 

 How many dodges does a character have in your version of the game?

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[felix.2386]

8 hours ago, toxic.3648 said:

again, as a holo main since POF i can tell u for sure that holo dmg is laughable

bro i can take away 50% of enemy hp by having tier 3 heat on sword 2 on prot. definitely laughable damage. very funny

if you dont know how to holo properly it's fine, just say it.

Edited May 13, 2021 by felix.2386

[Ghos.1326]

3 minutes ago, toxic.3648 said:

if u die to a prot holo u absolutely deserve it. photon forge skills got big telegraphs and dodge sword when u see them leave forge. they are about as threatening as the old bunker scrapper b4 that got canned. 

cc chain them or condiburst them , they are not immune to condi's like most ppl think. and since their dmg is wet noodle levels u got nothing to fear in that department either. 

i can see them work wonders in teamfights tho, massive cc spam and some aoe's to cover the point will always be good there. but new mes with staff ambush or spellbreaker will have np wiping the floor with a holo's face

I don't agree. I run a no defense flamethrower build, still don't die to prot holo, and still recognize that its damage and defense, as well as its mobility and ability to stick to targets, is pretty high up there.

condition focused mes in general that has a very high level of sustained condition application will beat an engineer in general anyways, because of engi's nature of their condition clearing and mitigation being at a smaller level than its other class counterparts. as well, spellbreaker can still hit pretty hard with its greatsword burst skill, spellbreaker also has a lot of evade frames tied into skills with relatively shorter cooldowns (bull's charge, whirlwind), as well as frequent defensive/utility based skills that can fill the gap in between those cooldowns (shield stance, full counter) to stay relatively healthy throughout the entirety of the fight. Along with the dodges and the heal skill that also clears condis, spb is a dangerous duelist in 1v1 in general.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Arken.3725 Lots of responses in this thread is another case where people who main something have mained it for so long, they are not aware of how strong their class is. I'm seeing responses: "Prot Holo damage is low" wow. Do they not dabble in and play other classes from time to time? To put things into perspective: A Support Shout Spellbreaker has low damage for the level of sustain and team support it built for, very low damage actually. However, a Protection Holosmith is pumping out all of the damage output of a Strength Spellbreaker wearing Demo with just about equal CC to boot, AND its self sustain is much higher than the Shout Spellbreaker, along with its team support capabilities that are equal to or possibly better than the Shout Spellbreaker. <- That is actually happening. Anyone who argues this strikes me as an Engi main who recently tried Prot Holo over Nades, and decided that "My damage feels lower than Nade Build so I'll say Prot Holo damage is low" with absolutely no thought beyond that.

 

Furthermore, the other day in the ffa I had decided I wanted to brush up on Engi for the first time in awhile and learn Prot Holo. I logged in and loaded up the build. After looking over the traits and what not, I remember thinking: "What the hell. This is really strong." I didn't realize it was a team support that was constantly turning everyone's condis into boons for them, in additional to blasting water fields all over the place. I realized it was the S tier side node presence currently, and also was an S tier team fight/support. I thought: "Alright" so I waddle down into the ffa and have no motor memory of my skills or really any knowledge of rehearsed reflex reactions of how to deal with any situations, I don't know Engi. I go down and randomly engage 2 players who are not able to kill me as I roll around in my reflect bubbles the entire time, blasting water fields and cycling full health bar resets, seems like just about every 15-20s you're cycling nearly full health on Prot Holo. I'm fumbly and wasting time having to look at my tool tips to figure out wtf I'm doing on this build. I eventually kill these two players through means of sheer face tanking sustain alone, as I tested feeling out Forge while attacking them when I didn't need to kite.

 

I played on Prot Holo for maybe about 10 more minutes as I kept saying in /s in the ffa: "This is disgusting and it actually enrages me that I can come down here on a build I have no idea wtf I'm doing on, and start winning 1v2s." And it's true, it was disgusting. When I log into a Herald to learn, it's hard and I get roughed up. I log into Thief to learn and it's hard and I get roughed up. Log into virtually anything else outside of a few other memes that are also degenerately easy to wield for how strong they are, and it's always a chore to learn something to be able to be effective at it. But not Prot Holo. Playing Prot Holo feels like you're a boulder rolling around that no one wants to get in the way of for obvious reasons, and it is actually so statistically strong, that you can fumble and be bad on it and still win vs virtually any class, in time, through sheer sustain. Protection Holo is way too loaded right now.

 

As far as grenades go, as a Ranger player specifically, here is my gripe with it:

 

1. Can't stand toe to toe with a good Holo unless you can seriously outplay the player behind it. This usually results in having to range on approach to pad a bit of damage before going in or having to LOS play against the Holo and kite from it.
2. While ranging on approach or kiting away from the Holo, my ranged attacks do not go around LOS and hit the Holo through walls or from under floors, but the Holo' ranged attacks hit me from around LOS and hit me through walls and from under floors.
3. The grenade spam is way too fast. The velocity needs to be lowered by at least 25%. These should NOT be moving fast enough to chase someone down with nade spam. This is probably what I feel is the main problem with grenades. When they are used in closed quarters ok, I get it. But they should NOT be able to chase people across a map and have high precision with nade throwing due to the velocity. That's too much.
4. When I have to choose to range or melee, I have to eat a 9s CD weapon swap and be stuck in that if I make a bad decision. The Holo on the other hand has no CD for going in and out of Nade kit and his Sword/Shield side to adjust to his positioning as freely and as often as he chooses. This is an awfully strong luxury to have, when your melee side and AoE ranged damage side are just on demand any time you wish to swap.

I don't want to get Holo eviscerated and I certainly don't want Core Engi nerfed. But there is a lot wrong here on Holo. Thing is, I don't find Nade Kit to be a problem on Core or Scrapper. So the obvious still stands that, it's really just Holosmith Forge that ultimately is too strong. It's Forge that makes it so even when you do run past the nades to get to the Holo you wish that you hadn't done that because then he pops Forge and becomes dominant in melee. The Forge creates an effect where he is dominant at range and in melee, and can swap between these as freely as he chooses. That is not supposed to work that way.

 

I've been saying it for a long long time. Forge is the problem. Turn Forge to a 9s CD and it would create much more opportunity for counter-play vs. any Holo build. I really think this would make the difference and be the easiest fix that would tend to what makes grenades FEEL overpowered on Holo, and what make Prot Holo able to keep dishing out so much damage so frequently. It's all Forge. The problem is entirely within Forge. It's just my opinion that the CD is probably the most foundational mechanic to hit that would have the greatest impact on Holo performance, even before nerfing numbers.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Grenadier holo absolutely oozes with [uninteractive] mechanics, which is how it's been able to compete in the meta for, what, well over a year now? Two years and some? Despite all the nerfs?

Just look at the Explosives tree, you get barrier on an offensive ability, you get an offensive ability on a dodge, you get a defensive condition [blind] on a dodge and you stack vulnerability on an area whenever you dodge roll + hit. It's absolutely loaded with synergistic goodies combining offense on defense and vice versa.

Combine this with the insane access to passive survivability that engineer has, on top of the burst + sustained dps granted by holosmith specialization (which allows you to "double" on elixirs), and it's easy to say no amount of number shifting will FIX the build. It'll either be unusable garbage or broken by default.

It's funny that people complain about thieves when this abomination exists.

Prot holo needs no explaining. You can't kill them, they will [eventually] kill you. This is the guy warrior mains' GF tell them not to worry about.

Edited May 13, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

"This is the guy warrior mains' GF tell them not to worry about."

If I had a legendary I would give it to you.

 

Holos are what Berserker could never become and will never be "successful builds in all gamemodes".

[Arken.3725]

I want to come back and play and I refuse to play support guard but I feel as if a power variant would just get farmed by specs like these.  

 

Also for those saying grenades hit like wet-noodles, imagine symbols being front loaded that could be spammed with the same speed?  I bet everyone(myself included) would be complaining about it. 

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 minute ago, Arken.3725 said:

I want to come back and play and I refuse to play support guard but I feel as if a power variant would just get farmed by specs like these.  

 

Also for those saying grenades hit like wet-noodles, imagine symbols being front loaded that could be spammed with the same speed?  I bet everyone(myself included) would be complaining about it. 

It's almost funny how squishy core guard feels by comparison. They're strictly inferior in a 1vX scenario where X > 1.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i think damage nerfs would solve both builds. no need to mess with mechanics that are working for a class like the condi hate is for holo. do we really want less team condi cleanse? the answer is no.

 

edit

like i just said in another thread, light aura seems like it will be a problem.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[razaelll.8324]

8 hours ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Thats prolly true, but maybe spite necro and condi scourge can force its off node 1v1. Regarding 2v1, I think thief + mirage can do it. sim-em SLB can pressure it pre patch, but prolly not after the sic em nerf. Then the counter is rotate~ 

Sic em nerf is only for pve they made it 25%  which is the same in pvp from a while.

 

If you talk about the last patch sic em soulbeast didn't get any nerf in pvp only in pve as far as i know.

Edited May 13, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Arken.3725]

That's a possible solution. As it stands, everything(damage-wise) holo has is not only massive, but front-loaded. This is a stark difference of say symbols which need multiple seconds to pull off similar damage in a small circle.   This has zero sense behind it. 

[Bast.7253]

I think it's pretty clear after nearly 3 years? of holo being the way it is that they have no intention of balancing it.

Reducing the power coefficient of grenades by 0.12% or whatever isn't going to make a difference. They can still reset multiple times during a fight, spam endlessly for insane damage, and when that fails they can just stealth, superspeed away, and spam you with grenades.

Thankfully I don't see too many people playing holo in matches anymore but it's difficult when two/three just default to necro. I swear all this gamemode is now is necros.