Holosmith (both grenade and prot) need a look at.

[Twigifire.8379]

1 hour ago, Bast.7253 said:

Honestly, I wouldn't even say it's just Holo. I was in WvW last night and some scrapper came out of stealth and one shot me with one grenade barrage. 4.5k damage each grenade. I mean, that's cool and all.. but why are people complaining about shatter mes exactly? 
 

 

You can do a lot of damage with nades, but there's no way someone hit you 4.5k damage per grenade. Assuming it was shrapnel, you'd need over 3500 power, 300% crit damage, 25 vuln, and every damage multiplier engi can have to be active for that amount of damage [Did the calculation]. I know what you're trying to say, but hyperbolising doesn't help your point and only derails from an objective discussion on how to fix engi without gutting the profession.

 

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

Honestly, I wouldn't even say it's just Holo. I was in WvW last night and some scrapper came out of stealth and one shot me with one grenade barrage. 4.5k damage each grenade. I mean, that's cool and all.. but why are people complaining about shatter mes exactly? 

But I'd say one issue here is just how rampant boons are in this game. It's like some classes have such easy access to them they might as well just bake in the damage to the class. I feel like they should be something you have to work towards that make a significant impact, not just something that pops up for using any random ability. Stab seems to be the only thing that you really have to actually work at to get anymore, outside of maybe alacrity unless you're rolling mirage. 

 

 Many of the nade nerfs were PvP only, meaning WvW is free game. 

 

Also the one shot scrapper build in WvW has been around for ages. It doesn't need nades to pull it off. It can manage the same feat with Jump Shot (Rifle 5). It is the definition of glass. It stacks might with elixirs and boon duration gear. Uses templates to swap their build and gear to a full glass set, then tries to cheese you from stealth. If it works, great. If not, they'll drop dead if you so much as breathe on them. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Bast.7253]

36 minutes ago, Twigifire.8379 said:

 

You can do a lot of damage with nades, but there's no way someone hit you 4.5k damage per grenade. Assuming it was shrapnel, you'd need over 3500 power, 300% crit damage, 25 vuln, and every damage multiplier engi can have to be active for that amount of damage [Did the calculation]. I know what you're trying to say, but hyperbolising doesn't help your point and only derails from an objective discussion on how to fix engi without gutting the profession.

 

I wasn't hyperbolizing. It may have been closer to 4k than 4.5. But it was A LOT. It was grenade barrage according to my combat logs.

Not saying it was the grenade kit itself as I know that does less damage. Still too much for a kit though. I mean just compare it to something like ele that has multiple conjured weapons and isn't a kit you can perma camp. 

[Bast.7253]

Just now, Kuma.1503 said:

 Most of the nade nerfs didn't happen in WvW. 

 

Grenade Barrage actually hits harder than Shrapnel Grenade in WvW.

 

Also the one shot scrapper build in WvW has been around for ages. It doesn't need nades to pull it off. It can manage the same feat with Jump Shot (Rifle 5). It is the definition of glass. It stacks might with elixirs and boon duration gear. Uses templates to swap their build and gear to a full glass set, then tries to cheese you from stealth. If it works, great. If not, they'll drop dead if you so much as breathe on them. 

Well yeah, this one had some firebrands jammed up its butt. It was some group ganking session. I didn't really expect to win. Just pointing out that it DOES do a ton of damage without needing holo.

[mortrialus.3062]

On 5/13/2021 at 4:20 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

unpopular opinion, the fact that prot holo exists shows how broken holo as a spec is, whats the point of having holo bruiser if scrapper exists? leave scrapper with its bruiser oriented role, and let holo be a dps.
stop the sense-less dps nerfs, if anything we need more damage, if holo needs to lose anything its survivability 
I had fights against holosmiths where we both kite due to being almost dead, and every time they heal to full within a moment, maybe just maybe that is the issue with the " dps " spec?
You cant win on node cuz it just kittening wins, people bring in the " kite " argument, but the moment you kite you kitten yourself over, as holo will almost instantly fully reset itself with the crazy healing it has.
Maybe its time to hit heat therapy again? Dunno.

 

I've said for a while that Holo should get a 20-25% penalty for it's healing similar to one dodge mirage or scrapper vitality nerf.  

 

Holo by default gets more damage and mobility than core and scrapper.  It should have a real drawback and losing toolbelt 5 for forge barely qualifies.  Holo should be forced into a high risk high reward role.  You'll still have a wealth of active defenses thanks to shield and other core attributes but your capacity to eaily recover from severely screwing up is tamped down noticably.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 5/15/2021 at 8:11 AM, felix.2386 said:

Problem with holo is that it's OP mechanically just like scourge/FB, and by nerfing number you will only eventually pass a point where OP mechanic doesnt matter because the numbers are too weak like FB is now.

yet they refuse to remove mechanics from these classes. so either it's OP or it's overnerfed and unwanted.

 

they need to start nerfing mechanics now just like how they should've buffed warrior mechanics since 2012, but they won't bother, so the problem will never be fixed, holo will be forever OP unless it's nerfed to unplayable, just like FB just like scourge.

That's what I like to call [fundamentally] broken design.

Sometimes - not always - people complaining about a champion, a character or a build even after it has received a number of nerfs is a sign of this concept existing within said medium.

[Megametzler.5729]

23 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

yes, taking defensive traits instead off offensive ones makes you deal less damage. THank you for clearing that up for us.
well, exept when you are tanky as kitten and take no damage you can afford to run into people and lose less time dodging/kiting and can spend that time attacking. Party of why prot holo when viable becomes a stat-check build.
When its good it out-everythings you and you kinda just lose.

Congratulations, you didn't read anything and therefore didn't get the point I was making.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

On 5/14/2021 at 1:34 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

I swear to god if core engi gets the nerf bat again due to holo...

 

Nerf holo sustain and/or holo specific damage, not any kits or core engi traits.

This whole "dont nerf core engi" stance is ignoring how overpowered engineer traits are. Core engi isnt very good because of their lack of weapon options, the core engi traits are extremely strong. Alchemy is ridiculous with all its passive boons and HGH & purity of purpose, and explosives is as strong as some elite spec traitlines.

[Kuma.1503]

3 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

This whole "dont nerf core engi" stance is ignoring how overpowered engineer traits are. Core engi isnt very good because of their lack of weapon options, the core engi traits are extremely strong. Alchemy is ridiculous with all its passive boons and HGH & purity of purpose, and explosives is as strong as some elite spec traitlines.

 

 

Which is precisely why you neglected name a single core explosives Engineer that has managed to provide any concrete evidence for what you just said. This should not be hard if it's as strong as some elite specializations. Even with limited options you'd expect to see at least one build overperform.  

 

People love to cherry pick the powerful traitlines like Alchemy while conveniently ignoring weak or below average traitlines like Firearms, Tools, or Inventions (requires Alchemy to become a  "good" traitline). It's almost as if core engineer has strengths and weaknesses, which is exactly what you'd expect from a balanced class. 

 

But lets nerf it again and ignore the fact that Holo quite litearlly has more baked into a single traitline than core engi typically has in three. More mobility, damage, sustain, and cleanse. The problem is obviously core. 

 

And then when Holo inevitably finds something else to abuse and starts terrorizing the meta again, we'll find some other core trait to pin the problem on the cycle will begin all over again. 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Kuma.1503