What happened? back after 7 years and this isn't the same game.

[Senjun.8149]

This may be lengthy but I'm passionate about this game and I had alot of good memories here, so I want to give my input honestly and fully so firstly,

 

Hi all I've been back for 3 days now.  I use to play 7ish years ago (I Received  7 birthday gifts in the mail thats how I gage this) and I am alittle upset with the changes, not for just my sake, but for the game as a whole and heres why.

 

I've always been an avid pvper, it's all I do in games. That's it. I may get involved in the story here and there but pvp is what I'm about and not to brag but to let you know where I stand, in mmorpgs it's always something I've been very good at. After leaving gw2 to accomplish real life goals, I always bragged about how good and balanced the pvp was here (of course it had it's issues) but gw2 was far far from the worse game I've played as far as balancing goes. It had extremely wide diversity with a hint of meta but the fun of it was that almost every weapon/profession had a way to be decent-great. Pvp was very diverse with all types of wacky builds that would leave you saying "oh ok never seen that before"  and I would tell people as much.

 

Here's my problem now, coming back to the game I expected as much that I'd struggle. That's fine, I always played unorthodox things, I was basically the only elementalist in pvp running scepter/focus back in the day, a custom made condition build that people would laugh at until I 1v3'd them and their friends, but you didn't see anyone else using it. I came back to find that my traits have been severely nerfed which I'm half ok with. I guess some other people discovered the build and it may of been tuned down. Then I find that obsidian flesh, dragons tooth, mist form and my perplexity runes which i spent a fortune on back in the day have all been nerfed severely. Now this has completely rendered my entire build useless, a condi focus ele is pretty much no longer viable. 

 

At this point, I take a look around, every single profession is basically running the same meta. With a few exceptions here and there. I thought to myself, maybe people just discovered metas but from what I've been reading and hearing is that Anet has nerfed and tuned down a ton of things since I last played. WHICH would be ok! If it didn't basically force people into the metas we see today. 

It's just really sad to me that I came back to a game that was once so diverse and so fun, to find that its become another cookie cutter mmorpg. Like I've never had to google builds i love making my own, and guild wars 2 gave me so much room to do that at the start. Now it's like I need to get with the program and be a puzzle piece and fit in where I belong or else im just hindering myself and others.

 

I get what they are trying to do or at least what I think is going on. Obviously over time as the community thins out a bit, It becomes far easier to just balance the game around a few metas. Let those metas have their time in the sun and then nerf those and buff other things so people are encouraged to keep playing and grinding new gear and trying  a new build. it is EASIER to balance a game this way. I really hope I'm wrong and that this isn't what they're doing because the thought makes me sick to my stomach. But I really am tired of seeing the same exact builds over and over and I can't blame the players. I really can't because all I keep hearing is that their previous builds/weapon choices have just been over-nerfed or modified and it leads me to believe they chose this route.

 

Overall, I'm  disappointed. This definitely isn't the same feeling I use to have. This was the first game I came back to excited to experience the good pvp this game had and I've come back to what feels like something completely different. I don't need alot of time to make this assessment, I've quite enough experience with these things even after my 7 year break, to spot issues pretty quickly especially when they have effected me so directly. I'm wondering what any other old school players think about this and I'm wondering what's going on with my once beloved guild wars2.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Grind gears?  Are you talking about sPvP?  I thought gears were available as a choice in the PvP Lobby.

 

I don't PvP, so I could be wrong.

 

Nope, not wrong:

The attributes, runes, and sigils from a character's PvE equipment are not used in structured PvP maps.

[Ashantara.8731]

10 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Grind gears?  Are you talking about sPvP?  I thought gears were available as a choice in the PvP Lobby.

 

I don't PvP, so I could be wrong.

 

Nope, not wrong:

The attributes, runes, and sigils from a character's PvE equipment are not used in structured PvP maps.

 

Oh please. It's very clear that the OP wasn't talking just about PvP. Yes, they stated their own preference was PvP, but their statements apply to the general game and its issue of a lack of build variety, which was the point they were making.

[Senjun.8149]

16 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

 

Oh please. It's very clear that the OP wasn't talking just about PvP. Yes, they stated their own preference was PvP, but their statements apply to the general game and its issue of a lack of build variety, which was the point they were making.

Correct, I can speak from a pvp bias viewpoint but overall what effects one ultimately effects the other. I can only imagine that build diversity has become an issue with these nerfs for both sides of the game, which again, may be for the reasons I stated that a game is far easier to balance this way but not necessarily what's good for the playerbase.

 

Ill give people an example, 

 

Imagine you got sword mesmer and staff mesmer both running condi builds. One has more utility than the other, and one has more dps than the other. Both are viable builds, both are good in certain areas and for certain situations but say more people complain about the staff mesmer or perhaps, the staff mesmer had one or two things that made it slightly more appealing but NOT NECESSARILY overall better than the sword mesmer. But these one or two things were "problematic"

 

You now take away or nerf those one or two things. Now the sword mesmer is the better option.  there is no longer any reason to go for the staff mesmer, because those one or two things they changed, were the reasons it excelled in some areas that sword mesmer didn't and it no longer has any edge over the sword mesmer in almost any given situation. It doesn't mean you can't do well but it does mean you are swimming upstream when you could be swimming downstream.

 

They now keep it this way because when you think mesmer and conditions, you now think about the sword mesmer alone and not the staff mesmer. Which makes balancing it for them far easier and lowers build diversity for the entire playerbase.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Senjun.8149

[Naxos.2503]

As sad as it is, many of those nerfs come from player demands out of :

1) Perceived lack of utility compared to other classes (Which is falacious, as no player test is ever done in a complete vacuum).

2) A meta becoming so common it dwarfs other builds in player arsenals (Which tends to Still affect other builds that arent running this particular meta)

3) A particular demand from high level content that force many players into a Specific build (Which make the other builds all but invisible in high end content, and that is generally what the devs look at)

 

Most of these are player originated nerfs, whether we like it or not, and I'm not exempt of that behaviour myself. I've rarely called down the nerf hammer on a build, but I've certainly engaged in meta building to stay competitive in PvP and high end content. Mostly because if I didn't, I either wouldn't last very long, or nobody would have played with me.

[Senjun.8149]

14 minutes ago, Naxos.2503 said:

As sad as it is, many of those nerfs come from player demands out of :

1) Perceived lack of utility compared to other classes (Which is falacious, as no player test is ever done in a complete vacuum).

2) A meta becoming so common it dwarfs other builds in player arsenals (Which tends to Still affect other builds that arent running this particular meta)

3) A particular demand from high level content that force many players into a Specific build (Which make the other builds all but invisible in high end content, and that is generally what the devs look at)

 

Most of these are player originated nerfs, whether we like it or not, and I'm not exempt of that behaviour myself. I've rarely called down the nerf hammer on a build, but I've certainly engaged in meta building to stay competitive in PvP and high end content. Mostly because if I didn't, I either wouldn't last very long, or nobody would have played with me.

 

It is sad, although I can't imagine anyone ever complained about obsidian flesh but I could be wrong. But when I played there were so many "metas" that you almost couldn't even call it a meta, it was simply so diverse and so many good build options that meta was a term  used for very few builds that are google copy and paste builds. You would see almost every weapon combo being used competitively in pvp in some form or another.

 

I don't doubt players had a hand in complaining alot, they always did and always will but I do actually have a feeling that when it goes for what it use to be, to what it is now, that Anet themselves have taken an interest in dumbing the game down and making it more cookie cutter so it's easier to grasp for the playerbase and easier for them to balance (per your #3 example) 

 

I mean the slice is just so clean that they took the diversity away in such a potent manner, I mean my nerfs alone for what I use to run, these aren't small nerfs, they are massive nerfs that don't make me say "oh jeeze guess i gotta pull myself together and try harder" it makes me say "wow I've actually been rendered useless, they took away every edge and every advantage i use to have" and that's the god honest truth.

 

It wouldn't make me raise an eyebrow if it was just me and just my build but I've been talking to oldbies and researching posts and videos and I'm far from the only one who's noticed this immense dumbing down of the diversity this game use to have.

 

I see how they so intricately changed my traits to encourage me to be a certain way with certain weapons. It didn't use to be like that, there was a far wider range of viability.

 

I just need to know that Anet knows that this wasn't the right way to handle this situation. And if they turned back time 7 years ago, the people who didn't play back then would be in for such a treat and arguably, alot more fun than the system offers you now.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Senjun.8149

[Naxos.2503]

1 minute ago, Senjun.8149 said:

 

It is sad, although I can't imagine anyone ever complained about obsidian flesh but I could be wrong. But when I played there were so many "metas" that you almost couldn't even call it a meta, it was simply so diverse and so many good build options that meta was a term  used for very few builds that are google copy and paste builds. You would see almost every weapon combo being used competitively in pvp in some form or another.

 

I don't doubt players had a hand in complaining alot, they always did and always will but I do actually have a feeling that when it goes for what it use to be, to what it is now, that Anet themselves have taken an interest in dumbing the game down and making it more cookie cutter so it's easier to grasp for the playerbase and easier for them to balance (per your #3 example) 

 

I mean the slice is just so clean that they took the diversity away in such a potent manner, I mean my nerfs alone for what I use to run, these aren't small nerfs, they are massive nerfs that don't make me say "oh jeeze guess i gotta pull myself together and try harder" it makes me say "wow I've actually been rendered useless, they took away every edge and every advantage i use to have" and that's the god honest truth.

 

It wouldn't make me raise an eyebrow if it was just me and just my build but I've been talking to oldbies and researching posts and videos and I'm far from the only one who's noticed this immense dumbing down of the diversity this game use to have.

 

They have yes. I think this started around the time they added fractals. I think the goal was to diminish what individual players were able to do in term of versatility so that teamplay is encouraged. It was made much easier to actually specialize into one role, as opposed to having a more diverse build that can adapt to a degree. But that resulted in a certain unbalance in which some classes could specialize much more easily than others due to having some effects that others did not. A lot of the Elite Specs I suspect were born in an effort to overturn that effect by giving a class a radical overhaul in playstyle. But it did perpetuate the search for the perfect specialization.

 

The only place you can still see a modicum of diversity is in PvP and WvW to a far lesser degree. PvP prevents player adapting their build midgame, so many players will try to have a panel of options available to them. In WvW it's less common, but most players managing to 1vX are running a similarly adaptable build.

[Senjun.8149]

2 minutes ago, Naxos.2503 said:

 

They have yes. I think this started around the time they added fractals. I think the goal was to diminish what individual players were able to do in term of versatility so that teamplay is encouraged. It was made much easier to actually specialize into one role, as opposed to having a more diverse build that can adapt to a degree. But that resulted in a certain unbalance in which some classes could specialize much more easily than others due to having some effects that others did not. A lot of the Elite Specs I suspect were born in an effort to overturn that effect by giving a class a radical overhaul in playstyle. But it did perpetuate the search for the perfect specialization.

 

The only place you can still see a modicum of diversity is in PvP and WvW to a far lesser degree. PvP prevents player adapting their build midgame, so many players will try to have a panel of options available to them. In WvW it's less common, but most players managing to 1vX are running a similarly adaptable build.

Well I'm extra disappointed to see PvE has been hit so hard aswell, I figured it that seeing how hard  my build alone got changed for the worse and others telling me how theirs did aswell, that the goal was to create a "team effort, cookie cutter group play mentality" The whole point of not really having a designated healing profession at release was to destroy that idea. But even in WvW I'm not seeing much diversity. It's basically all one meta now per profession. And I've barely seen any elementalists at all come to think of it.

[Naxos.2503]

11 minutes ago, Senjun.8149 said:

Well I'm extra disappointed to see PvE has been hit so hard aswell, I figured it that seeing how hard  my build alone got changed for the worse and others telling me how theirs did aswell, that the goal was to create a "team effort, cookie cutter group play mentality" The whole point of not really having a designated healing profession at release was to destroy that idea. But even in WvW I'm not seeing much diversity. It's basically all one meta now per profession. And I've barely seen any elementalists at all come to think of it.

Elementalists still have a pretty sweet spot in WvW, I'll agree that it's not as strong in other parts of the game, I think with Engineer it's one of those classes that arent played all that often. Funny in a way, the two classes who emphases the most versatility sidelined.

 

In WvW Elementalists tend to be infamous for two things : Mistwalking back into fortifications after being downed (and thus escaping death while defending a point) and using large AoE to keep the walls free of enemy incomings. More "out of the box" builds also include a lot of Cold condi to slow down enemy groups in large scale combat, but that's not as efficient due to the overcleanse meta a lot of players are running. 

 

In WvW, I personally run an all fire elemental summon build, which focuses on Fire condi and raw damage roughly equally. It is Terrible in 1v1, but it does fairly well to support large scale combat. It is definitely not as efficient as other builds out there that will do this very role better. The mistwalking thing is basically their only saving grace, and many players actively complain about only them being able to pull it off. Which is understandable given the current trend, but sad in a way that it's essentially the only thing that makes them still unique.

 

Sidenote, I know a friend with a Tempest tank build that still manage to pull off a decent amount of damage, but I dont exactly know what he's using. He's pretty good even against several players.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Naxos.2503

[mercury ranique.2170]

I personally think this post would be better off in the sPvP section of the forum.

To actually see the issue, I would refer to that forum as well/ Juwst read a bunch of posts. The short story is:

"Someone had the guts to kill me whle I'm obviously the best player in the world, so their build must be overpowered and it needs to be nerfed."

 

"My build got nerfed and now I'm angry"

 

Believ eme when I say that the amount of nerfs are nothing compared to the demand for nerfs by the population. It is simply how people react in a competitive format when they loose. In such I have never seen a game with a healthy pvp community that deals with eachother with respect (outside the arena obviously).

There will always be flavour of the month and counters against them. It is the human nature that is at the base of this issue.

 

 

[phreeak.1023]

Yikes. Someone logged in after 7 years and after 3 days he feels like to tell everyone what is wrong about the game. 

 

Must be one special snowflake. 

 

[Game of Bones.8975]

You must mean: "It's not the same game ... IT'S MUCH BETTER! There's gliding, mounts, profession specializations, and Legendary Items. There's so much for me to catch up on!"

[Senjun.8149]

5 hours ago, phreeak.1023 said:

Yikes. Someone logged in after 7 years and after 3 days he feels like to tell everyone what is wrong about the game. 

 

Must be one special snowflake. 

 

 

Actually it's what I've noticed and how fast I noticed it. Wouldn't of came here if most of the people I've been talking with in-game (including my friends who still play from release) and from my research, didn't feel the same way. You might want to brush up on your reading before trying to draw your shallow and childish conclusion and 3 days is plenty time for me to focus on this one area of the game and map out my problem with it.

 

2 hours ago, Game of Bones.8975 said:

You must mean: "It's not the same game ... IT'S MUCH BETTER! There's gliding, mounts, profession specializations, and Legendary Items. There's so much for me to catch up on!"

 

There is alot for me to catch up on. Although I'm not a fan of mounts or gliding but that's subjective.

 

6 hours ago, mercury ranique.2170 said:

I personally think this post would be better off in the sPvP section of the forum.

To actually see the issue, I would refer to that forum as well/ Juwst read a bunch of posts. The short story is:

"Someone had the guts to kill me whle I'm obviously the best player in the world, so their build must be overpowered and it needs to be nerfed."

 

"My build got nerfed and now I'm angry"

 

Believ eme when I say that the amount of nerfs are nothing compared to the demand for nerfs by the population. It is simply how people react in a competitive format when they loose. In such I have never seen a game with a healthy pvp community that deals with eachother with respect (outside the arena obviously).

There will always be flavour of the month and counters against them. It is the human nature that is at the base of this issue.

 

 

 

It's sad because gw2 was never about a flavor of the month mentality. That's not the direction I wanted to see for this game.

[Jski.6180]

Power creep and anet trying to foces raids with a 3 class system in a game not made for it. As long as you cant target your team mates with an healing skill this game will never have a "good" healing system and at best the AI of the support skills is all your left with.

[Sobx.1758]

>"passionate about the game"

>"came back after 7 years" (to an 8 year old game)

>"it's not how it's used to be"

 

Sorry, but the start of your post is pretty loaded already for my taste. You didn't play the game vastly more than you did, you have barely any say about what it is or should be, seeing how you missed pretty much every step of the way here other than... release of the game, I guess?

 

About the meta builds, they're absolutely not mandatory for most of the content and probably even most of the community. It's an issue if you try to join meta squads aimed at completing content asap, but then it looks like a problem created by having high goal-oriented expectations while refusing to use required/optimal tools. You're free to play like you want, but then so are the other players.

[Senjun.8149]

17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

>"passionate about the game"

>"came back after 7 years" (to an 8 year old game)

>"it's not how it's used to be"

 

Sorry, but the start of your post is pretty loaded already for my taste. You didn't play the game vastly more than you did, you have barely any say about what it is or should be, seeing how you missed pretty much every step of the way here other than... release of the game, I guess?

 

About the meta builds, they're absolutely not mandatory for most of the content and probably even most of the community. It's an issue if you try to join meta squads aimed at completing content asap, but then it looks like a problem created by having high goal-oriented expectations while refusing to use required/optimal tools. You're free to play like you want, but then so are the other players.

 

I knew people would pick at the 7 year part. All I can tell you all is that what I've come back to is so different in a bad way and as someone who pvp's as much as I do, it's just sad to see so much diversity came crashing down to this optimal build meta you speak of.

 

Can you mix it up? sure, but swimming downstream (as my mesmer example comment mentions) is so much more rewarding. It's almost like they took the builds that were already swimming upstream (alot of opinions from old time friends on here confirm this but I already noticed it myself by this time so it just confirms) and kept nerfing them until they couldn't really do it anymore.

 

Again can you mix it up and play the way you want still? sure, they just complicated it because it's easier to have a cookie cutter balanced game than one where almost every build was viable in its own way. That's the issue here.

[Caitir.6947]

3 hours ago, Senjun.8149 said:

 

I knew people would pick at the 7 year part. All I can tell you all is that what I've come back to is so different in a bad way and as someone who pvp's as much as I do, it's just sad to see so much diversity came crashing down to this optimal build meta you speak of.

 

Can you mix it up? sure, but swimming downstream (as my mesmer example comment mentions) is so much more rewarding. It's almost like they took the builds that were already swimming upstream (alot of opinions from old time friends on here confirm this but I already noticed it myself by this time so it just confirms) and kept nerfing them until they couldn't really do it anymore.

 

Again can you mix it up and play the way you want still? sure, they just complicated it because it's easier to have a cookie cutter balanced game than one where almost every build was viable in its own way. That's the issue here.

That's partly because some builds ended up just being ludicrous in times past. 7 years is a lot of time to have missed when things had their opportunity to present how absurd they could be. A lot of those builds that were "swimming upstream" used traits from overperforming builds that were definitely swimming downstream so they got caught in the crossfire. There's basically nothing anybody can do to prevent that, even in games that are definitely better balanced. Also build variety gets pruned over time as stronger traits/builds get introduced naturally. If you PvP so much in games you should very well know that. Even if some of the old traits/builds weren't nerfed they'd still likely be played significantly less and perform worse because of the sheer strength of some of their competition, which will absolutely kill diversity by itself in a community focused on optimization and winning like PvP communities are. 

 

You're swimming upstream for a reason. It's likely the worse decision in most cases, and for good reason. The reason you see less diversity now is because most PvP communities don't want to swim upstream, they want to win, so they'll go down the path of least resistance and swim downstream. This narrows metas over time. Additionally, again, 7 years is a long time: Some clearly overperforming builds ended up using a lot of the things you're probably talking about being nerfed and they were nerfed because of those builds. Hell, the entire elite spec of Mirage was overperforming so significantly they removed an endurance bar from them to try to dial them back.

[AinSoph.5063]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:51 PM, Senjun.8149 said:

 

, it's just sad to see so much diversity came crashing down to this optimal build meta you speak of.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I think you're just looking back through some rose-tinted glasses.

 

I've been here since launch, and from about day 3 there has always been a strong "meta" in every game mode.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, though, there has been changes that have caused a deflation in what I would call "viable" builds, but I think once you get more time playing again, you'll find that it's not complete doomsday.

[Jski.6180]

On 5/13/2021 at 1:30 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

>"passionate about the game"

>"came back after 7 years" (to an 8 year old game)

>"it's not how it's used to be"

 

Sorry, but the start of your post is pretty loaded already for my taste. You didn't play the game vastly more than you did, you have barely any say about what it is or should be, seeing how you missed pretty much every step of the way here other than... release of the game, I guess?

 

About the meta builds, they're absolutely not mandatory for most of the content and probably even most of the community. It's an issue if you try to join meta squads aimed at completing content asap, but then it looks like a problem created by having high goal-oriented expectations while refusing to use required/optimal tools. You're free to play like you want, but then so are the other players.

That the height of cynicism suggesting that to a player. If you played the game for that time you too should know what has changed and the pains of such changes but to see them all at once for some one IS a massive hit.

[Sobx.1758]

55 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

That the height of cynicism suggesting that to a player. If you played the game for that time you too should know what has changed and the pains of such changes but to see them all at once for some one IS a massive hit.

Sure, seeing them all at once is a "hit", I don't think I ever denied it (but I also don't exactly see the relevance of mentioning that in response to what I wrote?). tbh I might have been worried more if I came back to the game after 7 years and almost nothing changed.

 

I also wrote it in light of someone that pretty much didn't play the game stating that he's "passionate about it", not sure if my intention isn't clear there, but I don't think there's so many other ways to interpret what you've quoted. I don't see the "cynism" here, let alone the height of it.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Jski.6180]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sure, seeing them all at once is a "hit", I don't think I ever denied it (but I also don't exactly see the relevance of mentioning that in response to what I wrote?). tbh I might have been worried more if I came back to the game after 7 years and almost nothing changed.

 

I also wrote it in light of someone that pretty much didn't play the game stating that he's "passionate about it", not sure if my intention isn't clear there, but I don't think there's so many other ways to interpret what you've quoted. I don't see the "cynism" here, let alone the height of it.

 

 

It just seems rude is all there was a lot changed more so for ele then other classes for power scaling. Not every one can and should like the game in its current state. There are some real problem with it and not knowing the evolution over the last 7 years is a massive shock.

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

It just seems rude is all there was a lot changed more so for ele then other classes for power scaling. Not every one can and should like the game in its current state. There are some real problem with it and not knowing the evolution over the last 7 years is a massive shock.

Simply pointing out faults in someone's thought process or their claims that seem to be false "I'm passionate about the game, but didn't play for 7 out of 8 years" (whether correct or not, because it sure can be up for discussion) isn't "rude", stop being overly defensive for OP for no reason.

Playing a victim when you're not one just won't work, responding to what I wrote might.

 

 

"there was a lot changed more so for ele then other classes for power scaling"

Also false, you're blatantly trying to use almost every thread and every complaint you see to try and claim that ele is somehow especially oppressed. It's not, so try being a bit less obvious with your agendas based on empty claims.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

On 5/13/2021 at 1:51 PM, Senjun.8149 said:

 

I knew people would pick at the 7 year part.

And they are right to do so. At this point, it's relevant to even question if you can remember what the game was like after not playing it for 7 years to conclude it's changed for the worse, especially after only 3 days of play. 

[Buran.3796]

Eles have currently perfectly fine/viable condi bruiser builds available; just research or try your own way. But FOR SURE it will take you more than 3 days to figure how to fight in the current PvP meta after 7 years giving the cold should to the game...  You're not George Foreman.

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Simply pointing out faults in someone's thought process or their claims that seem to be false "I'm passionate about the game, but didn't play for 7 out of 8 years" (whether correct or not, because it sure can be up for discussion) isn't "rude", stop being overly defensive for OP for no reason.

Playing a victim when you're not one just won't work, responding to what I wrote might.

 

 

"there was a lot changed more so for ele then other classes for power scaling"

Also false, you're blatantly trying to use almost every thread and every complaint you see to try and claim that ele is somehow especially oppressed. It's not, so try being a bit less obvious with your agendas based on empty claims.

 

 

That is an type of cynicism victim blaming. Every time you question the person skill or there over all person in any way your going after that person NOT the subject.

 

They are talking about ele it sounds like or at least the skills for ele so yes there very much is a reason to point out that ele has been hit hard over the last 7 years.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Jski.6180