Time to nerf Purity of Purpose.

[kappa.2036]

This trait alone is meta-defyining and needs to be looked at.

My suggestion is to put an internal cd on it, atleast 5 seconds.

 

[Lynce.2935]

Sure remove the only thing that make scrapper support worth playing

[God.2708]

How does it define the META?

[Infusion.7149]

I'd argue that the gyro superspeed (and now quickness on top of that) is more oppressive than Purity of Purpose.
In general, skills that do more than 2 different things shouldn't do them extremely well. We see the same problem with Mantra of Solace in PVE.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Spartacus.3192]

4 hours ago, kappa.2036 said:

This trait alone is meta-defyining and needs to be looked at.

My suggestion is to put an internal cd on it, atleast 5 seconds.

 

you want a Grand Master trait to have a 5 sec ICD after converting one condition? LMAO

Edited May 13, 2021 by Spartacus.3192

[TheBravery.9615]

How about instead of having a complicated conversion table, just make it so removing any conditions apply regeneration. That way the most it can do is just have a very long regeneration boon

[XenesisII.1540]

2 hours ago, MaryDeVil.1894 said:

Sure remove the only thing that make scrapper support worth playing

 

Yeah it certainly isn't for their healing, cleansing, superspeed, and group stealthing....

Edited May 13, 2021 by XenesisII.1540

[kappa.2036]

2 hours ago, God.2708 said:

How does it define the META?

Because can costantly convert conditions into boons for the whole party maybe?

 

53 minutes ago, Spartacus.3192 said:

you want a Grand Master trait to have a 5 sec ICD after converting one condition? LMAO

With condi into boons for the whole party every 5 seconds it would still be a top pick cuz it will still bring top cleansing/healing/superspeed/etc. But atleast this will open up more build variety.

Edited May 13, 2021 by kappa.2036

[Impling.4170]

53 minutes ago, TheBravery.9615 said:

How about instead of having a complicated conversion table, just make it so removing any conditions apply regeneration. That way the most it can do is just have a very long regeneration boon

 

Pretty sure they have a master major trait that does just that.

 

Personally, I think they should just not have it affect allies in WvW at all and maybe buff the personal duration by about 20% or so. They could do a duration split on allies between game modes and have it be at 0% in WvW.

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Scrapper is in the position right now, where a lot of WvW is dependent on it's existence in order for zerg fights to even work.

 

Fortunately there are other ways to get rid of conditions and provide boons that's what makes a change in POP not as incredible as say, stability, which if changed, would have such drastic consequences in wvw zerg play as we know it, and it might be impossible to predict the amplitude of those consequences...it could kill WvW forever, or zerg play becomes unplayable, or the game mode becomes one big roaming playingground...

 

But ya POP is pretty meta-defining, and changes to it would still be catastrophic...whether the impact is good or bad is yet to actually be known. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[God.2708]

1 hour ago, kappa.2036 said:

Because can costantly convert conditions into boons for the whole party maybe?

So? Scrappers don't apply boons any other way. Barring some rather niche useless cases. Why are scrappers cleansing and applying boons meta defining but tempests or firebrand cleansing and applying boons not?

[XenesisII.1540]

PoP came out after both expansions, only 3 years ago, it's not like it's something that has existed since the beginning of the game and absolutely needed to function in a zerg. Boon strips/corruption and damage have already been reduced since PoP was introduced, resolution is more widely available than resistance ever was, but cleanses still do the majority of the work in getting rid of conditions and before that even antitoxin runes helped in this.

 

Actually let's throw in another idea here, take out the damaging conditions from it's convert list, which still leaves a lot of the non damage conditions converting to useful boons like fear/taunt->stability, vulnerable->protection, slow->quickness, weakness->might, cripple->swiftness, immob->resistance. Cleansing still gets rid of everything, it cuts down on the amount of boons being recycled but still produces the important ones. If you want more of certain boons, then run something to actually produce it.

 

 

 

[God.2708]

20 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

PoP came out after both expansions, only 3 years ago, it's not like it's something that has existed since the beginning of the game and absolutely needed to function in a zerg. Boon strips/corruption and damage have already been reduced since PoP was introduced, resolution is more widely available than resistance ever was, but cleanses still do the majority of the work in getting rid of conditions and before that even antitoxin runes helped in this.

 

Actually let's throw in another idea here, take out the damaging conditions from it's convert list, which still leaves a lot of the non damage conditions converting to useful boons like fear/taunt->stability, vulnerable->protection, slow->quickness, weakness->might, cripple->swiftness, immob->resistance. Cleansing still gets rid of everything, it cuts down on the amount of boons being recycled but still produces the important ones. If you want more of certain boons, then run something to actually produce it.

 

 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inversion_Enzyme
?

Of course that only applied to ~50% of the cleanses an engineer produces.

February 06, 2018: Purity of Purpose has been added to the game and replaced Stimulant Supplier. hmm... when's the earliest build for scrapper on metabattle?   Dekong gave this build 5 stars • June 2018 It's an okay Build, nothing special, nothing bad. I always wanted support scrapper to work, but i don't thing the Med Kit justifies it. Anyway, giving it a good rating, it's a fun build to play, but nothing gamechanging. Would rather have a bruiser type scrapper than a Healing one atm. hmmmmmmm... June was when medkit changed, MDF went from 20 -> 50%   The Blue Rangerr gave this build 5 stars • March 2019 Power AoE Superspeed and meta defining access to stealth for engage and re engage. Also provides amazing healing, high boon uptime, and such high condition cleanse that it can nullify condition based damage dealers. ooo... there's that term, 'meta defining'. What happened in March of 2019? The gyro class of skills has been reworked and changed to wells. Gyros are now no longer targetable and instead hover over the engineer to grant their effects. Ahhhhh, now it's all coming together. We put in Purity of Purpose. Gave engineers the ability to heal constantly with vastly improved effectiveness. Then gave them the ability to drop wells, except the wells don't stay in one place, and vastly improved their effects. Then PoP gets called meta defining. I mean sure. I agree it's not necessary, and like seeing the actual reasonable proposals to changing it. But nothing about the skills history or an engineers role in zergs makes this exact trait the bogeyman, and I find it fascinating that of all the things that a support scrapper does, it's this one trait that gets all the flak.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[kappa.2036]

1 hour ago, God.2708 said:

So? Scrappers don't apply boons any other way. Barring some rather niche useless cases. Why are scrappers cleansing and applying boons meta defining but tempests or firebrand cleansing and applying boons not?

Scrapper's healing and cleansing is better than both tempest and firebrands because - i repeat myself - they can convert boons into conditions non-stop thanks to PoP.

Firebrand are meta defining cause they have large access to aoe blocks and stability, which are crucial in this gamemode. They don't rely on 1 single trait to be in meta. Scrappers do.

 

[Zikory.6871]

13 minutes ago, kappa.2036 said:

They don't rely on 1 single trait to be in meta. Scrappers do.

 

Delete pop and most groups would still run scrappers. No other class has the same access to Super speed. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, God.2708 said:

 

I mean sure. I agree it's not necessary, and like seeing the actual reasonable proposals to changing it. But nothing about the skills history or an engineers role in zergs makes this exact trait the bogeyman, and I find it fascinating that of all the things that a support scrapper does, it's this one trait that gets all the flak.

 

this was the forum fix i needed, thanks

[ArchonWing.9480]

It's not just about the boons but rather that dropping condis on a zerg in many circumstances is actually healing or buffing them. For example, burning converts to Aegis and chill converts to resistance. You may actually be doing negative damage to the enemy.

 

But perhaps boon conversion itself needs to be looked at.

 

Or just grant fixed boons instead of converting them when clearing a condi.

 

Funny enough, the actual term "Purity of Purpose" was a meme that came up from the difficulties of balancing the class properly.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[God.2708]

10 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

It's not just about the boons but rather that dropping condis on a zerg in many circumstances is actually healing or buffing them. For example, burning converts to Aegis and chill converts to resistance.

 

But perhaps boon conversion itself needs to be looked at.

 

Or just grant fixed boons instead of converting them when clearing a condi.

 

The issue I have with this sort of thinking though, is that a tempest is ALSO cleansing condi's and applying boons. It's not in a neatly packaged 1:1 trait conversion. But they cleanse almost as much as a scrapper does, and they apply plenty of boons while doing it which, and this is important, is something a scrapper doesn't do without PoP. Look at the entire scrappers kit. There's two boon applying abilities in the whole thing, and a mountain of regen from another trait, that's it. Meanwhile a tempest is applying 1-3 boons with every other ability cast, and a firebrand can't even play the game without accidentally maxing out a boon bar.

It might be an interesting direction to take to remove PoP and make scrappers niche a 'boonless' support. It would definitely make its niche more unique. But looking at game trends, unique things generally turn into must haves and cement positions in party.

[ArchonWing.9480]

17 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

 

The issue I have with this sort of thinking though, is that a tempest is ALSO cleansing condi's and applying boons. It's not in a neatly packaged 1:1 trait conversion. But they cleanse almost as much as a scrapper does, and they apply plenty of boons while doing it which, and this is important, is something a scrapper doesn't do without PoP. Look at the entire scrappers kit. There's two boon applying abilities in the whole thing, and a mountain of regen from another trait, that's it. Meanwhile a tempest is applying 1-3 boons with every other ability cast, and a firebrand can't even play the game without accidentally maxing out a boon bar.

It might be an interesting direction to take to remove PoP and make scrappers niche a 'boonless' support. It would definitely make its niche more unique. But looking at game trends, unique things generally turn into must haves and cement positions in party.

Tempests are also good, but they can't replace a scrapper because of stealth/superspeed. Also they can be prone to being locked out of an attunement and need to channel a lot of their big abilities while there is almost no cast time for Scrapper stuffs. Firebrands are here the same reason why guardians are always here-- stability. Their burst healing can be good, but their tomes are on long cooldowns.

 

Compare against the scrapper's med kit that can heal on auto, while eles need to go to water to have the same privilege. Ok, guardian mace also heals but that thing is way too slow.

 

Outside of large scale, scrapper also reigns supreme due to the stomp/res gyro though that does fall into irrelevance in larger fights. And since scrappers got buffed again last patch, we're not seeing them go anywhere.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[XenesisII.1540]

Yeah and ignore their other group niche of superspeed and stealth while we have this conversation.

 

I actually think it's fine if groups went from running 10 scrappers to 5 scrapper and 5 tempest. For some reason people think it just needs to be firebrands and scrappers and that's what's gotten us this boring two class stacking meta, everything a zerg needs for support dumped on two classes. If they bothered to build classes right they would have given niche skills to every class so you have a reason to run them for certain bonuses. But all the boon ballers just want everything in one nice and easy package.

 

Let's give alacrity to mirage because they apparently forgot the actual spec for the same class they made for it doesn't exist.

Edited May 13, 2021 by XenesisII.1540

[God.2708]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Yeah and ignore their other group niche of superspeed and stealth while we have this conversation.

 

I actually think it's fine if groups went from running 10 scrappers to 5 scrapper and 5 tempest. For some reason people think it just needs to be firebrands and scrappers and that's what's gotten us this boring two class stacking meta, everything a zerg needs for support dumped on two classes. If they bothered to build classes right they would have given niche skills to every class so you have a reason to run them for certain bonuses. But all the boon ballers just want everything in one nice and easy package.

 

Let's give alacrity to mirage because they apparently forgot the actual spec for the same class they made for it doesn't exist.

 

Hey now. It's alacrity AND might. As though the game doesn't have enough of that falling out of the sky.

Honestly they should just remove the boon and give everyone +750 power and condi damage base.

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

Translation…. care bear wars here we come. 

[Spartacus.3192]

17 hours ago, kappa.2036 said:

Because can costantly convert conditions into boons for the whole party maybe?

 

With condi into boons for the whole party every 5 seconds it would still be a top pick cuz it will still bring top cleansing/healing/superspeed/etc. But atleast this will open up more build variety.

You don't nerf a GM trait into nothing just because the class has other good things. Also nerfing a trait that holo and core engie can take just because it's super strong on scrapper is just the kind of ANET thinking that has messed up so many other class build diversity. 

[kappa.2036]

17 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Yeah and ignore their other group niche of superspeed and stealth while we have this conversation.

 

I actually think it's fine if groups went from running 10 scrappers to 5 scrapper and 5 tempest. For some reason people think it just needs to be firebrands and scrappers and that's what's gotten us this boring two class stacking meta, everything a zerg needs for support dumped on two classes. If they bothered to build classes right they would have given niche skills to every class so you have a reason to run them for certain bonuses. But all the boon ballers just want everything in one nice and easy package.

 

Let's give alacrity to mirage because they apparently forgot the actual spec for the same class they made for it doesn't exist.

This is the smartest thing i have ever read in this forum. You completely got the point.

 

4 hours ago, Spartacus.3192 said:

You don't nerf a GM trait into nothing just because the class has other good things. Also nerfing a trait that holo and core engie can take just because it's super strong on scrapper is just the kind of ANET thinking that has messed up so many other class build diversity. 

A trait with 4/5 seconds cooldown would be nerfed into nothing? It just open possibilities for other classes and to shake this boring meta. In all the history of gw2 every time a trait/skill overperforms on a certain spec is nerfed for the whole class, this is nothing new (PoP is basically never used on core engi or holo anyway).