Power Creep is Out of Control

[Jski.6180]

23 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You don't ... it's not a choice available to you ... but there are OTHER choices you have to make as a player that do influence how a team is built. There isn't a 'replacement' of classes for meta ones in a team like you claim ... unless you choose to play that way. Just because you make that choice doesn't mean Anet needs to accommodate your idea of how the game should work. Just make a different choice.

So its not a chose then or is it? If you want the player to have a real chose then they should be able to chose it if not then its not a real chose at all.

 

That what all of this is about anet has taken the chose away though this power creep. The ability to choose has been gone for years now after anet went over to the "dark" side of 3 class system mmorpg. I am shocked they not gone full bland mmorpg and cut out active combat witch on some levels they have. That why there soo many ppl very unhappy with this update and the years of bad updates and bad balance choose. What dose anet say that ele is in a good places even though the class has no true chose. If one class has no chose then no class as a chose if no class has a chose the game has no more chose left and content and how ppl play is being focsed on them by anet.

 

This is not your fault and there no way you can answer for it and i do not want you to but you got to stop defing anet at every turn there is a real problem with the gw2 balancing every one knows it even anet knows it but they are unwilling to communicate in a real way.

[Obtena.7952]

38 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

So its not a chose then or is it?

Listen ... I don't know if you are hard of understanding, maybe English isn't your first language or what your deal is here. No you DON'T get to choose what skills/effects/things your class has ... and you know asking me how to 'choose' to get alacrity and quickness on ele is absurd to begin with. That DOESN'T change the fact that there isn't a 'replacement' of classes for meta ones in a team like you claim ... unless you choose to play that way.

 

I'm defending how Anet designs and balances the game because in the last 8 years of playing this game, I have YET to be forced to play something I don't want to play ... and I have a vested interest in keeping it that way. If you have problems with how performance affects your ability to do get a team, it's because you CHOOSE a path that MAKES that a problem. 

 

There is nothing Anet needs to do here; if something changes it's status as meta or not ... doesn't matter. If you are a slave to playing meta, then you MUST be flexible classes you play when the game does (and will) change. If you don't like that, then change how you think about playing the game. #choice

Edited May 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Listen ... I don't know if you are hard of understanding, maybe English isn't your first language or what your deal is here. No you DON'T get to choose what skills/effects/things your class has ... and you know asking me how to 'choose' to get alacrity and quickness on ele is absurd to begin with. That DOESN'T change the fact that there isn't a 'replacement' of classes for meta ones in a team like you claim ... unless you choose to play that way.

 

I'm defending how Anet designs and balances the game because in the last 8 years of playing this game, I have YET to be forced to play something I don't want to play. That's because the game is designed to allow people to do EXACTLY that ... not worry about their performance and be successful. If you have problems with how performance affects your ability to do content, it's because you CHOOSE a path that MAKES that a problem. 

Just because you like it dose not mean others do too. That just the world you have to live in. The last 8 years have been hell for other ppl seeing there class striped of effects and seen them giving to other classes as well as other classes getting entirely new effects. Anet has added chose to only a hand full of classes and i guess your lucky that you like thoughts hand full of classes. 

 

I want to chose to enjoy the game on the class i want and the way i want to play it. That is what anet wanted this game to be and how it should be still balanced with that mind set. This was not a 3 class system game but it is now and anet has not done enofe to make sure every class do play with in that 3 class system well.

 

This balance patch was bad the one before that was bad as well and the one before that was bad as well you can track at least 1 year 5 months of updates that where very bad for most classes. Luck should not give you chose the game makers should open up more choose as the game progress in the way you want to play the game not take them away.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Just because you like it dose not mean others do too.

OK ... that doesn't change what I said. The fact is that it doesn't matter if you like it or not. If you don't like it, then this isn't the game for you to choose to play because it can't cater to how you want it to work. If the last 8 years has been hell because the game doesn't work how you think it should ... that should be a MASSIVE hint to you to not play it. It simply is not balanced according to meta level performance and it doesn't need to be because their is a massive range of performance allowed to be successful. 

 

I mean, there is also some hypocrisy there with what you say ... you don't like how the game you have been playing for 8 years works? I don't believe you, otherwise you wouldn't play it. 

 

"I want to chose to enjoy the game on the class i want and the way i want to play it."

 

Nothing stops you from doing that except choices YOU make. I do that EVERY day ... so what is your problem?

Edited May 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

 

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... that doesn't change what I said. The fact is that it doesn't matter if you like it or not. If you don't like it, then this isn't the game for you to choose to play because it can't cater to how you want it to work. 

That why we try to appeal to anet and other players here on the forms. I do not like what the game has become with power creep and i do not like the classes left behind due to this power creep. I will point it out every chase i can. Anet can fix there balancing over night if they real wanted to and i am going to keep trying to get them to fix there errors.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

 

That why we try to appeal to anet and other players here on the forms. I do not like what the game has become with power creep and i do not like the classes left behind due to this power creep. I will point it out every chase i can. Anet can fix there balancing over night if they real wanted to and i am going to keep trying to get them to fix there errors.

Except that appeal doesn't make sense because of how the game is designed in the first place. You go ahead and point it out but the irony here is in your own words. Anet could change the game to be what you think it should be ... but they don't ... so that should tell you something about how misaligned your ideas of how the game should work really are.

 

The biggest problem is that you think the way the game is being balanced is wrong just because it's not balanced how you think it should be. That's just wrong. Anet is the design control authority here, not you or any other players. The idea that Anet is 'wrong' in how they define the game is laughable. Sure you don't like it, but there isn't a right or wrong ... there's just the way it is. If you want to ACTUALLY be influential to change that, you better stop assuming how you think is the 'right' way it should be done and ask yourself why Anet does the changes they do. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except that appeal doesn't make sense because of how the game is designed in the first place. You go ahead and point it out but the irony here is in your own words. Anet could fix there balancing overnight ... so that should tell you something about how misaligned your ideas of how the game should work really are. 

Ok... what about giving ele or some other class that lacks a boon a new boon seems impossible when you can do it for others classes? They out right changed a boon comply they CAN update there game in such a way and it will do nothing to the designed of the game.

 

This game was made not to have a 3 class system by your logic the way the game plays now should not work because it was not designed for it!

 

The irony (not realty irony) is that this is all programing and there are no real laws of physics to deal with any thing could be updated and change at a drop of a hat because its not the real world. But these self imposed rules seem to hold ppl from using there imagination to make things better in a places where imagination runs the very system behind it in the first places.

 

Its a game that you can charge the rules any way you want.

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Ok... what about giving ele or some other class that lacks a boon a new boon seems impossible when you can do it for others classes?

What about it? Your idea that ele gets some boons because other classes got some boons is absurd. Those aren't related in any way. That's just a serving of envy with a pinch of axe to grind for taste. Again ... your idea of how the game should work doesn't seem to align with Anet's and the relevant design authority here isn't you.

 

"Its a game that you can charge the rules any way you want."

 

No, it's not. It's a game where ANET can change the rules anyway THEY want. The fact is that they do change the rules ... how THEY want. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What about it? Your idea that ele gets some boons because other classes got some boons is absurd. Those aren't related in any way. That's just a serving of envy with a pinch of axe to grind for taste. Again ... your idea of how the game should work doesn't seem to align with Anet's and the relevant design authority here isn't you.

 

"Its a game that you can charge the rules any way you want."

 

No, it's not. It's a game where ANET can change the rules anyway THEY want. The fact is that they do change the rules ... how THEY want. 

And that why the game has never been updated right?

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

And that why the game has never been updated right?

The game is updated all the time based on how Anet wants things to change. So that question is obviously nonsensical. Besides, that doesn't seem to have anything to do with how bad your idea is that ele gets boons just because other classes got some too. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

 

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The game is updated all the time based on how Anet wants things to change. So that question is obviously nonsensical. Besides, that doesn't seem to have anything to do with how bad your idea is that ele gets boons just because other classes got some too. 

See the point of view your holding to is things cant changes at all and you cant make a chose unless anet lets you. That is the opposite of every thing you said up to this point. That is what i am saying anet is over dictating the game play at this point we are in a top down system where the game makers are choosing how you should play the game. You as a player lacks any real chose and well that just wrong and complete violation of the ideal of gw2.

 

The other classes got the boons because other class had them and the only way to make though other classes more viable is to give them these boons. I have no ideal why meroz has alacrity when chron was the alacrity class. I have no ideal why scraper has quickness when it was eng that has quinkness before hand for a very long time but lost it because it was "too much quinkess" (anet words 2018 balancing update.

 

The though about giving tempest alacrity is that there is no means of CDR traits for tempest shouts so giving it alacrity will be a net 0 balancing to its shouts. As if it has alacrity but from another class balancing vs other classes having cdr traits for there skill that give alacrity getting both the boon cdr and the traits cdr. If any thing the other classes should not have it more so then tempest.

[Obtena.7952]

53 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

 

See the point of view your holding to is things cant changes at all and you cant make a chose unless anet lets you.

No, it's not. My POV is that if you want to promote a change, it needs to be aligned to how Anet designs the game. Asking for alacrity and quickness on ele, just because other classes have them is not aligned to how Anet design the game. It's in fact, an absurd reason to justify a change. Also, my POV is that if you disagree with a change Anet makes, it's not because they are 'wrong' and that you got the 'right' answer. The correct thing to do is to start understand why the game is designed the way it is and how the changes relate to that ... something you continue to fail to do. 

 

You certainly get yourself into an unfavourable situation here based on how little you understand people you reply to and Anet as well. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, it's not. My POV is that if you want to promote a change, it needs to be aligned to how Anet designs the game. Asking for alacrity and quickness on ele, just because other classes have them is not aligned to how Anet design the game. It's in fact, an absurd reason to justify a change. Also, my POV is that if you disagree with a change Anet makes, it's not because they are 'wrong' and that you got the 'right' answer. The correct thing to do is to start understand why the game is designed the way it is and how the changes relate to that ... something you continue to fail to do. 

 

You certainly get yourself into an unfavourable situation here based on how little you understand people you reply to and Anet as well.

Your point of view is anet did it so its good and no one can question it. If you question it you go after there ability to play the game not on the merits of balancing. At best your apologizing for anet over and over.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Your point of view is ....

 

 

Listen ... I JUST told you what my POV was so don't play dishonest games with me where you (who continues to demonstrate a lack of understanding) is telling me what my meaning is. If there is anyone who is most capable of telling someone what I mean ... it's ME. And just so there is some clarity here, I will simply repeat my POV for you so there should be no 'challenge' of what my meaning is to you to perpetuate some nonsensical argument 

 

My POV is that if you want to promote a change, it needs to be aligned to how Anet designs the game. Asking for alacrity and quickness on ele, just because other classes have them is not aligned to how Anet design the game. It's in fact, an absurd reason to justify a change. Also, my POV is that if you disagree with a change Anet makes, it's not because they are 'wrong' and that you got the 'right' answer.

 

The idea I'm 'apologetic' for Anet is absurd ... especially since there isn't any wrongdoing here. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Listen ... I JUST told you what my POV was so don't play dishonest games with me where you tell me what I'm meaning. Just in case you didn't believe it, I can only repeat what I told you in the previous post. 

 

My POV is that if you want to promote a change, it needs to be aligned to how Anet designs the game. Asking for alacrity and quickness on ele, just because other classes have them is not aligned to how Anet design the game. It's in fact, an absurd reason to justify a change. Also, my POV is that if you disagree with a change Anet makes, it's not because they are 'wrong' and that you got the 'right' answer.

And why did the other classes get such effects? That what your leaving out this is not just about the ele class this is about why they are adding in power creep to classes whom did not have it before. What reason out side of anet did it so its good if your POV on such things?

 

That IS the underline problem with your argument. I am only leaning into Anet chose to make power creep to the game a thing to make classes viable. Oddly i am using anet designs plane more then you are in this argument for giving ele realty any class these strong boons.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

And why did the other classes get such effects?

because Anet decided it was appropriate based on the theme or whatever definition those classes have. I mean ... go read the patch notes. Anet explains why they make these changes to us. You don't need to take my word for it. Are you going to tell Anet what their meaning is too like you do for me just to create an argument based on your misunderstanding?

Edited May 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

because Anet decided it was appropriate based on the theme or whatever definition those classes have. I mean ... go read the patch notes. Anet explains why they make these changes to us. You don't need to take my word for it. Are you going to tell Anet what their meaning is too like you do for me just to create an argument based on your misunderstanding?

So anet can do any thing and be ok? The notes read as if they used google translate to make them and where very non though out. But if we use them at there word classes with out aggrieve boons are not true supports any more in this game. Alactory and quinkess are thoughts aggressive boons it seems.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

So anet can do any thing and be ok? 

You just admitted yourself about 3-4 posts ago that's EXACTLY what they could do. Have you already forgot your own words? Something about not being limited by rules or physics, etc ...?

 

I don't really get your position here. Somehow you DON'T think Anet is the design control authority of the game? This is what's happening here ... somehow you convinced yourself you get to 'vote' on change. You don't. No one does. This all comes back to the fact that if you want to be influential to change, you better stop assuming how you think is the 'right' way it should be done and ask yourself why Anet does the changes they do. 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You just admitted yourself about 3-4 posts ago that's EXACTLY what they could do. Have you already forgot your own words? Something about not being limited by rules or physics, etc ...?

 

I don't really get your position here. Somehow you DON'T think Anet is the design control authority of the game?

 

They can do any thing they want to the game its a game and programing but it dose not make it right or good.

 

They are able to do any thing its there game but you can still point out if they are doing a bad job.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

They can do any thing they want to the game its a game and programing but it dose not make it right or good.

 

They are able to do any thing its there game but you can still point out if they are doing a bad job.

... and this isn't about an opinion about what is right or good because opinions aren't how Anet measures and decides to change the game. Clearly they have some process on how they assess the game; there is evidence of that in the patch notes. Player opinion is not what is the value here if Anet can directly measure players 'opinion' by measuring stats from the game. 

 

Sure, you might not like the changes, but again, if you want to be influential in your dissatisfaction of those changes, you better stop assuming how you think is the 'right' way it should be done and ask yourself why Anet does the changes they do. 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

... and this isn't about an opinion about what is right or good because opinions aren't how Anet measures and decides to change the game. Clearly they have some process on how they assess the game; there is evidence of that in the patch notes. Player opinion is not what is the value here if Anet can directly measure players 'opinion' by measuring stats from the game. 

 

Sure, you might not like the changes, but again, if you want to be influential in your dissatisfaction of those changes, you better stop assuming how you think is the 'right' way it should be done and ask yourself why Anet does the changes they do. 

 

Its the way i view it and it the way anet views it so i do not see what is wrong with asking for these boons on support classes?

[ThomasC.1056]

Thanks for raising the topic.

 

As far as I'm concerned, it's even worse than a balance issue. It's a game design issue. Let's consider the raid/WvW split.

 

From what I understand, raids are a really demanding game mode, that ask DPS to be extremely effective, a 100% boon uptime, with specifically alacrity and quickness. That comes from the way they're designed, the encounters, the mobs. So the game provides tools that can allow for very high DPS, very high boon generation and uptime etc. The first issue comes here : there aren't enough of these tools. For example, it seems like firebrands are widely oveperforming in the "boon generation" role than, say, tempests. So, it shrinks down the possibilities of diversity, which is an issue.

 

If you want to solve this specific issue, you can nerf the overperforming build, which can be troublesome because some raids won't be completed anymore because of too high difficulty. You can also boost the alternative builds, and get "meh, powercreep again ?!" complains. Or, you can change the way raids are made to be less demanding. Which will increase the attractivity of the overperforming class. So you have to think this as the whole.

 

Now, let's consider as a fact that players have "raid-grade tools" at their disposal. What happens when players pick these tools for WvW ? In small scale, they overperform, because their opponents are far to be as powerful as raid bosses, dps-wise, and survivability wise. Usually, they can't be both. So what can ANet do ? Seemingly, they don't really know, because they tried to promote boon corruption, before removing it mostly, and such things. They probably are uninterested in the game mode though. My guess is also they can't lower the boon generation because it'd impair too much the raid effectiveness of, say, firebrands. I think they can't split skills that much.

 

On the zerg side, things are a bit easier, because the group composition can get closer to raids, which means the zerg can get high sustain and high dps. To me, the issue here is the number of players in a zerg can be far higher than in a raid. The first consequence of it is the spamming issue : boon corruption or stuns tend to be useless, because of the insane boon generation on the other side. The second issue is damage is linear with numbers, which means it'll only grow. I think a non-linear asymptotic behaviour would be better : like 5 players hit 5 times harder then 1, but 10 only hit 7 times harder than one, and it takes more and more players to increase the DPS. Other solutions are changing the target cap, player collision, friendly fire, whatever... In all cases, a significant change goes more towards the game mechanics than the pure numbers in the tooltip.

 

Now, specifically about WvW, there also is a core issue : players themselves. One has to keep in mind that players don't want to play. They want to win. They'll therefore go to the most effective build that fulfills the purpose. The issue is : WvW being a competitive mode, if one wins, the other loses.

 

Also on the player behaviours : there're really different expectations. For example, quickness and alacrity for mirage/tempest are sometimes frowned upon because it doesn't "fit the class theme", while some other people couldn't care less about the theme and the lore, and only watch numbers and dials from their favorite tweaking tools. So I guess it has to be hard for ANet to please everyone, because if alacrity is demanded, it has to be available in more than one class, otherwise that one will become meta, so they'll give it to others, but it won't really fit the theme. On another hand, they are the ones that make alacrity mandatory, so...

 

TL;DR : some random thoughts about how the whole balance thing has to be considered alongside the way the game is designed, what it demands, what options it brings, and what players want to do.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its the way i view it and it the way anet views it so i do not see what is wrong with asking for these boons on support classes?

Right ... and as long as the way you view it isn't related to how Anet actually does it, then you aren't going to have a meaningful approach to discussing changes. 

 

Nothing wrong with suggesting for things but your idea that ele gets some boons just because other classes got some boons too is absurd. On one hand you complain power creep is bad because of how it's removed ele from being a good class ... then you turn around and think it should get a big ole power creeped buff to bring it back. The fact is that you will say anything to get a ele buff, even if it doesn't make sense or contradicts something else you say. Anything goes for you. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... and as long as the way you view it isn't related to how Anet actually does it, then you aren't going to have a meaningful approach to discussing changes. 

 

Nothing wrong with suggesting for things but your idea that ele gets some boons just because other classes got some boons too is absurd. On one hand you complain power creep is bad because of how it's removed ele from being a good class ... then you turn around and think it should get a big ole power creeped buff to bring it back. The fact is that you will say anything to get a ele buff, even if it doesn't make sense or contradicts something else you say. Anything goes for you. 

For a class to be a support now you need to have aggressive boons and it seems thoughts boons are alacrity or quinkess. So because other classes are being made into supports by this means other classes whom are support already need these boons as well. It is power creep but now its out you have to apply that same power creep to every thing or your simply leaving things behind. Ele as is other classes have an support game play or a gen. game play where they need these effects now to keep up with the current power carve of the game.

[Astralporing.1957]

21 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

So if your ones of the classes who do give out such a boon but your able to dps at the same level as every other class then why would you need any other classes.

Because being able to dps., and having access to alacrity does not mean you can get everything else as well. Go 10x such class? suddenly you have no quickness, no heal, etc.

Good luck with such a composition.