WvW Cele Fire/Air Weaver Roaming Build: What are your thoughts

[solemn.9608]

I explain the basic idea behind this build / what sets it apart from most, in the first minute and a half of the video. However I reckon many of us here haven't tried fire/air/weaver apart from raids/fractals/zerging. I almost never see anyone run these traitlines roaming (and sadly doubt I ever will again in PvP with the removal of the celestial amulet) and just wanted to pick your brains.

 

 

To me, it seems like the best WvW roaming build for Weaver, even elementalist in general, right now. It allows you to be relatively tanky with a lot of evade/barrier uptime (alternatively you can run woven stride instead of invigorating strikes for massive regeneration heals instead of barrier), extremely good mobility, and can still burst people down in seconds if they aren't careful. In addition to that with earth shield you'll have access to two magnetic auras every minute, several blocks, several pulls, and 2 invulns every minute. The earth shield autoattack is quite strong as well, often hitting 2k - 2k - 4.5k chains. You can combo the fire aura detonate into fresh-air (+vulnerability) with the autoattack chain to do massive damage while tanking through earth shield.

 

The only downside is it does require a lot of familiarity with the class/build. Not something I'd ever recommend to use for learning with.

Sorry if I didn't type this too well I don't have a lot of time to check grammar/make this pretty right now.

 

Hope this contributes something useful to the ele community, I know how stubborn eles are and most of you will probably roll your eyes but for the few who dare choose to wield this powerful build: go kick kitten 😎 \m/

edit: please don't kick any kittens that's the censor. Lmao

Edited May 16, 2021 by solemn.9608

[Jski.6180]

Weaver has a lot of power creep to it so its still hits hard and plays well even after the nerf thought both weaver it self getting hit and a lot of classes getting near pemta -33% condi dmg taken. Its a very different meta for roaming now though as its moving to roots/stun torment builds. Where ppl apply torment at a burst and roots or stop the target from moving. Weaver always going to be a weaker version of this but it dose not need the root / stun to get full effect.

 

I am persionly trying a root tempest build with cele but its hard to get the numbers right with out the build web pages not updated.

[Downstate.4697]

I think its fine if the condi removal and barrier uptime is there. It could be even better with 25 might. Not a fan of pyro puissance but using conjures in fire helps offset the down time of might.

[Widmo.3186]

Im not gonna lie, after watching this first duel vs warrior i was looking for a bleach to clean my eyes xD. Then it got better, still not a fan of your movement and camera angles, but at least I can see some decent stuff.
Overall yeah, I agree, its a not bad build. Movement and damage is alrighty, imo the bad part is sustain - good teef gonna melt it, same goes with bruiser, like decent ranger or holo. Not gonna say its the best build because in terms of ele its pretty much personal choice, eg. I prefer doing magic on d/d or s/d, my other friend on sw/fc or FA and another friend on d/fc. But definetly viable, as long as there is no better class with its operator that knows what to do.

[Junkpile.7439]

Wonder if core ele do massive damage celestial gear on. 🙃

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Warrior/SPB is  one of the best counter to melee weaver.

Strong cc with no aftercast (or cut with weapon swap) with strong burst (GS or Axe F1, etc), they also have strong passive regen, toughnes/mitigation, stab, boonstrip etc.

It's really really long for a weaver dagger or sword to kill a good warrior, while they can two shot you with GS F1 + spin ...

 

But yes, it's a bit sad to play celestial with no good fury uptime, no might ...

[solemn.9608]

9 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Weaver has a lot of power creep to it so its still hits hard and plays well even after the nerf thought both weaver it self getting hit and a lot of classes getting near pemta -33% condi dmg taken. Its a very different meta for roaming now though as its moving to roots/stun torment builds. Where ppl apply torment at a burst and roots or stop the target from moving. Weaver always going to be a weaker version of this but it dose not need the root / stun to get full effect.

 

I am persionly trying a root tempest build with cele but its hard to get the numbers right with out the build web pages not updated.

True, but mind you this build works very well vs roots/condi ranger because it can reflect, invuln, move away from melee easily, and condi cleanse very well. It is effectively a counter to most druids I've fought - assuming I'm paying enough attention/not currently stoned, lol

 

8 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I think its fine if the condi removal and barrier uptime is there. It could be even better with 25 might. Not a fan of pyro puissance but using conjures in fire helps offset the down time of might.

The damage you get from Flame Expulsion alone more than makes up for the loss of the might stacks. When this change was first introduced, I thought it nearly leveled the trait to the very ground, but if you can hit with flame expulsion you'll do more-or-less the same dmg as the +bonus dmg from having the 25 might longer. And yeah the shield helps too for sure. 

 

With earth 2, fire/earth dual attack and dodges running invigorating strikes you have more than enough barrier. With smothering auras, sigil of cleansing + sigil of generosity, fighting hybrids and most condi builds (excepting full condi mesmer/mirage and sometimes condi teef/core necro) is relatively fair/feels right. Can be hard to fight the exceptions with this build but most of the rest seem like reasonably decent matchups at the very least, if not lending the advantage strongly to you with this build.

7 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Im not gonna lie, after watching this first duel vs warrior i was looking for a bleach to clean my eyes xD. Then it got better, still not a fan of your movement and camera angles, but at least I can see some decent stuff.
Overall yeah, I agree, its a not bad build. Movement and damage is alrighty, imo the bad part is sustain - good teef gonna melt it, same goes with bruiser, like decent ranger or holo. Not gonna say its the best build because in terms of ele its pretty much personal choice, eg. I prefer doing magic on d/d or s/d, my other friend on sw/fc or FA and another friend on d/fc. But definetly viable, as long as there is no better class with its operator that knows what to do.

If you don't mind, I'd really appreciate your feedback on these two things, please/thanks!;

 

1) I made some definite mistakes in the first clip but to be sure, what exactly are you partial for about my movement/camera ? Is it the speed/frequency of moving the camera? In a few clips I might be really stoned or drinking and it gets ridiculous a bit, but for the most part I only do this because it allows me to better angle most attacks. I try not to use the look-behind key as I find it's mostly a crutch in place of just having quick & accurate full 360' movement at any time and the 0.3 - 0.4s it takes to swivel the mouse generally doesn't get me killed, maybe once or twice before I'll admit lmao. 

 

To respond to the rest: ah, fair enough, I've just run so many ele builds and different variants of almost everything (by now/at this point) that I've concluded this build wins vs the most matchups. Mind you my main is in t1 mostly and my alt usually stuck in t3/t4, so I don't often experience the t2 golden zone anymore, perhaps its different there slightly. This build has weaknesses, but so do all of the builds you listed, and all the other builds I play as well, perceivably those builds have more IMO ; we may just agree to disagree there but I'm open to discussion about it.

 

Ty/appreciate the feedback

 

6 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Wonder if core ele do massive damage celestial gear on. 🙃

It kinda does, I tried out a similar build on core ele a few nights ago and it was really fun. D/D very mobile, good sustain and damage. I should revisit it. Ty for the nudge haha

 

6 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Warrior/SPB is  one of the best counter to melee weaver.

Strong cc with no aftercast (or cut with weapon swap) with strong burst (GS or Axe F1, etc), they also have strong passive regen, toughnes/mitigation, stab, boonstrip etc.

It's really really long for a weaver dagger or sword to kill a good warrior, while they can two shot you with GS F1 + spin ...

 

But yes, it's a bit sad to play celestial with no good fury uptime, no might ...

Yaa, for sure. About the last thing you said - the fury uptime/might uptime is quite good, you constantly cycle through both. It may not have looked like it was there because I wasn't even able to strike the warrior often because he terrified me, lmao.

 

@Widmo.3186 ^ ? is this what you didn't like about the first clip

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by solemn.9608

[Jski.6180]

@solemn.9608

Any thoughts on doing weaver arcain air with arcain roots? Running with a rev or merz would be kind of crazy root lock down roaming build.

[solemn.9608]

4 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

@solemn.9608

Any thoughts on doing weaver arcain air with arcain roots? Running with a rev or merz would be kind of crazy root lock down roaming build.

The Elemental Surge > arcane blast = immob with earth attunement build is powerful and would work well with that roaming comp for sure. Works really well right now with scepter/focus, eagle/scholar rune, arcane 122 air 222 weaver 321 (or 323, if you dare), cleansing/X (I like impact or whatever the one is that increases precision+ferocity after CC)

Edited May 17, 2021 by solemn.9608

[Roads.5130]

I have been using cele build and I do think it complements sword Weaver very well, the only "downside" is that I think it's not as flashy as other builds.

Watching your youtube videos is the reason I made my Weaver a few months ago btw!

[Widmo.3186]

13 hours ago, solemn.9608 said:

1) I made some definite mistakes in the first clip but to be sure, what exactly are you partial for about my movement/camera ? Is it the speed/frequency of moving the camera? In a few clips I might be really stoned or drinking and it gets ridiculous a bit, but for the most part I only do this because it allows me to better angle most attacks. I try not to use the look-behind key as I find it's mostly a crutch in place of just having quick & accurate full 360' movement at any time and the 0.3 - 0.4s it takes to swivel the mouse generally doesn't get me killed, maybe once or twice before I'll admit lmao. 

Well, its probably nothing new, but. Height of the camera, maybe its just me but the bottom part of the screen looks kinda scuffed and often looks like you control only half of the field. Speaking of which, some ppl prefer rotating camera with mouse, personally I have just keybinded 180 camera angle so I can see stuff behind - like at 2:10, you several times dont pay attention to what enemy is doing (ik ik, sometimes we are just cocky, but still habit of being cocky by stowing weapons and at the same time controlling what who is doing is a good habit ^.^). And then during further duels its kinda ok, maybe enemy not always in middle of the screen (kinda looks like youd be playing with only left hand) but still fine - more problematic looks when you do 1v2 etc., like 7:25, fights become much easier when you can look at everyone, or at least from time to time, and not get random hit from behind.

Not gonna talk about swinging your character with right mouse button for better control of sword hits because its more of a trick and comes with experience (if you play alot sw/d then you prolly know what Im talking about, or even if dont then you might do it subconsciously). But overall as I said, I really liked some things. Like playing with other targets - polaric leap is really fun tool to kite, especially vs leap or rush abilities. During warrior duel switching targets with Ride the Lightning - love to do that drift and rarely see some1 making use of it properly. Also intercalations, simple things like using RtL when in meele, additional 1-2k damage makes a difference, and if u hit it its only 15s cd so worth doing, gonna be there during next rotation. No idea why some ppl avoid doing so.

And yep, I agree, each build have its own disadvantages and advantages. Thats why I think ele has one of the biggest amounts of viable builds (maybe they are not the best in their own category, but still working). And its always fun to see when some1 is playing something uncommon. When I opened video and saw 13k hp with sword build I thought its gonna be another clownfiesta of smashing PvE lads and pretending that its good build. Actually ended as decent stuff, nice job. I dont watch gw2 videos, but years ago some1 told me about guy that pretended to be a 'weaver prodigy' - name was Cellofag. Since watching this show of smashing keyboard with his head and reading comments about how good this guy is, Im kinda skeptical about ele yt videos. But as I said, a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[solemn.9608]

11 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Well, its probably nothing new, but. Height of the camera, maybe its just me but the bottom part of the screen looks kinda scuffed and often looks like you control only half of the field. Speaking of which, some ppl prefer rotating camera with mouse, personally I have just keybinded 180 camera angle so I can see stuff behind - like at 2:10, you several times dont pay attention to what enemy is doing (ik ik, sometimes we are just cocky, but still habit of being cocky by stowing weapons and at the same time controlling what who is doing is a good habit ^.^). And then during further duels its kinda ok, maybe enemy not always in middle of the screen (kinda looks like youd be playing with only left hand) but still fine - more problematic looks when you do 1v2 etc., like 7:25, fights become much easier when you can look at everyone, or at least from time to time, and not get random hit from behind.

Not gonna talk about swinging your character with right mouse button for better control of sword hits because its more of a trick and comes with experience (if you play alot sw/d then you prolly know what Im talking about, or even if dont then you might do it subconsciously). But overall as I said, I really liked some things. Like playing with other targets - polaric leap is really fun tool to kite, especially vs leap or rush abilities. During warrior duel switching targets with Ride the Lightning - love to do that drift and rarely see some1 making use of it properly. Also intercalations, simple things like using RtL when in meele, additional 1-2k damage makes a difference, and if u hit it its only 15s cd so worth doing, gonna be there during next rotation. No idea why some ppl avoid doing so.

And yep, I agree, each build have its own disadvantages and advantages. Thats why I think ele has one of the biggest amounts of viable builds (maybe they are not the best in their own category, but still working). And its always fun to see when some1 is playing something uncommon. When I opened video and saw 13k hp with sword build I thought its gonna be another clownfiesta of smashing PvE lads and pretending that its good build. But actually ended as decent stuff, nice job

At 2:10 for example when I didn't seem to be paying attention to whats behind me, it's because I know I had riptide available and my reaction time would be good enough with the amount of space/distance I had visible in the camera shot (which is not to say that I don't mess up like this occasionally so you have a point😅). When I do "left hand" stuff i.e. holding left mouse button and moving with the strafe keys, this is just because it's easier on my tendons(gives me a rest)/looks intimidating haha. And no worries of course, I do a lot of mouse-swings to make melee hits more accurate maybe just not in the clips you watched. Ride the lightning - for sure, a good target-swap always feels rewarding if it adds something to the fight.

 

Yeah haha I didn't realize until after I rendered that because I was in a lv60 pve zone it made my health seem a lot less than what this build puts it at 😅 glad you found some value in this build, I still greatly prefer it to almost anything right now because of my WvW playstyle 😄

 

8 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

I have been using cele build and I do think it complements sword Weaver very well, the only "downside" is that I think it's not as flashy as other builds.

Watching your youtube videos is the reason I made my Weaver a few months ago btw!

Not as flashy bahaha, ya, but the fire detonate with flame expulsion looks really cool, you have to admit!

And that's great! Hope it's going well \m/ glad I could help inspire

Edited May 17, 2021 by solemn.9608

[Downstate.4697]

Ran core cele ele last night. Pretty great damage, but i def feel anti toxin runes are the way to go. Every time i died was because I got caught up in condis. I was specced for more power damage with strength runes and power overwhelming and the damage was there, just getting caught up in out numbered fights I found myself struggling to balance playing offensive vs defensive. May try out earth shield with core as well.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The weirdest thing I'd recommend is to give primordial stance a try.  I use it on my celestial air/water/weaver build, and the amount of damage pressure it provides is pretty good.  With Fire/X/X it would be even better, since it synergizes with all of the traits there.  

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Fire-air was one of my first attempt with Celestial too; as I supposed healing power and boon duration blablabla would be enough.

But in fact I had to compensate some sustain with skills, sigils and runes, ; and so lose my runes of pack, sigil of battle etc. And it's a big loss obviously with celestial. 

I already played melee fire/air but with more glassy equipment, it felt better.

Plus Pyromancer's Puissance is REALLY a kitten trait, and absolutely does not help with mights on weaver, on contrary.

 

I don't know your feedback after 10 days. Are you still playing the same build in the video ?

Specs, runes ?

 

It's not my playstyle, I came back with arcane/x, mostly Arcane/Water but I keept celestial trinckets and weapons; the significative buff to BD and CD really helps me with my build (Vulnerability, weakness, chill, burning, protection, vigor, etc) and compensate the lack of puissance.

I just hope they won't nerf the total stat of celestial in the future, otherwise the fragile balance will disapear.

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Downstate.4697]

Celestial could be tone done by like 100 stat points in each category with full cele gear

[Sunshine.5014]

I tried 2 full days with Celestial and 2 full days with Trailblazer for Open World content (not claiming WvW or Raid). I don't have enough time to fully test instanced content yet. Conclusion:

- Trailblazer wins on all aspect beside Boon Duration, which I don't need because boons time now have a cap, and I max it out anyway even without Cele :(.

- Trailblazer has MUCH higher Vitality, making surviving random solo content easier. You can keep DPS if your HP drop. No need to switch to heal. The champ probably will die before your HP is low, then your HP is restored via out-of-combat.

- Trailblazer has MUCH higher Toughness, compounding the effects on effective heal. It feels even more survivable than Cele with just the heal signet and barriers.

- Trailblazer also has higher DPS. A simple rotation can deal 15k DPS. I can get 25k DPS if I try hard on champs. On Cele, the average is about 8k DPS. Max 15k try hard.

- Boons Duration is higher on Cele, but it's kinda a waste. It's capped now at 30s. Trailblazer can get 25 stack of Mights easily with aura/sigil/fire.

 

I'm not saying Cele is terrible. It's certainly fun and viable. However, a Trailblazer set, unfortunately, wins on ALL aspects that matter.

 

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Celestial could be tone done by like 100 stat points in each category with full cele gear

The way power dmg has been nerfed i am not sure if this is as needed. What we need is to see 3 or 4 combos gear get a bit stronger in there main stat.

[fuzzyp.6295]

On 5/22/2021 at 2:14 PM, Sunshine.5014 said:

I tried 2 full days with Celestial and 2 full days with Trailblazer for Open World content (not claiming WvW or Raid). I don't have enough time to fully test instanced content yet. Conclusion:

- Trailblazer wins on all aspect beside Boon Duration, which I don't need because boons time now have a cap, and I max it out anyway even without Cele :(.

- Trailblazer has MUCH higher Vitality, making surviving random solo content easier. You can keep DPS if your HP drop. No need to switch to heal. The champ probably will die before your HP is low, then your HP is restored via out-of-combat.

- Trailblazer has MUCH higher Toughness, compounding the effects on effective heal. It feels even more survivable than Cele with just the heal signet and barriers.

- Trailblazer also has higher DPS. A simple rotation can deal 15k DPS. I can get 25k DPS if I try hard on champs. On Cele, the average is about 8k DPS. Max 15k try hard.

- Boons Duration is higher on Cele, but it's kinda a waste. It's capped now at 30s. Trailblazer can get 25 stack of Mights easily with aura/sigil/fire.

 

I'm not saying Cele is terrible. It's certainly fun and viable. However, a Trailblazer set, unfortunately, wins on ALL aspects that matter.

 

 

It's fine to call Celestial terrible because in PvE it really is terrible. There is no reason to use Celestial in PvE outside of just personal preference. You never gain anything by trying to be balanced in an open world where the best self-sustain ability at your disposal is to kill the monsters faster.

 

Celestial is much better in WvW though, I'd consider it a meta stat-spread for solo/small scale roaming weaver... not for zerg weavers though, espically now that Retal is gone there is no reason to run Cele in a zerg if you're Staff. Maybeee for some Tempest builds... maybe.

I can't see it being preferred in Raids over Magis or Harriers either for a support class spread.

Edited May 24, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[Sifu.9745]

On 5/22/2021 at 8:14 PM, Sunshine.5014 said:

Trailblazer has MUCH higher Vitality, making surviving random solo content easier. You can keep DPS if your HP drop.

Wrong! Do your math. They have the same amount of Vitality. If we are precisely Celestial has slightly higher Vitality than Trailblazer. For example a Warrior with full Trailblazer has 25 500 health, while Warrior with full celestial has 25 600 health. You can check it by yourself, if you don't believe me.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Sifu.9745

[Sunshine.5014]

1 hour ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Wrong! Do your math. They have the same amount of Vitality. If we are precisely Celestial has slightly higher Vitality than Trailblazer. For example a Warrior with full Trailblazer has 25 500 health, while Warrior with full celestial has 25 600 health. You can check it by yourself, if you don't believe me.

My wording was incorrect. What I meant is the higher effective Vit, due to high Toughness.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Good example why Celestial/expertise is strong even in Power build for roamers; and that was one of my expectation that comes true in practice :

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAgi+CA-zxIY1oBDA-e

 

Here for example, when you're earth/earth Earthen Rush(#3) immobilisation last more than 2 seconds : It means, if the enemie has burnt its cleanse, you can easily chain with Chruning Earth (#5). You have more chance to actually hit someone with this skill than you never had before.

 

Or after a dual attack ; the weakness from Superior Elements last longer, you have time for one more attack with +15% precision; or a long cast (Churning Earth, etc). And overall with convergence, LR, the extra CD on weakness deeply helps to put pressure.

Primordial stance : you applied  "chilled" longer and we all know that >2sec of chilled is annoying, and panicking for everybody.

And some damage on burning, bleeding, longer vulnerability if you play piercing shard + primordial stance; ... etc you will scratch significative damage over time. 

 

It doesn't mean I ask you to equip your power elem with expertise (Runes, viper, trailblazer) but you are wrong to underestimate this stat and so the benefit from celestial.

 

I won't recommand full celestial, or at least to play with offensive runes and food. Accessories or Accessories +weapon with marauder/zerk/sinister armor, is a solid mix.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Lol, the last time I actually played ele, arcane was a must 😮

 

will give this a try as it looks fun. Can always go focus too I guess for a bit of anti range defence/support 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Hi, Solemn.  Thanks for the cool video!

 

My issue playing sword weaver as a roamer is it's very difficult to consistently pressure opponents as they can simply kite you.  Mobility skills like lightning flash help me get close to opponents more often, but unless I can get a good CC to stick they can just dodge and kite away again.  That being the case I find it doesn't work out very well when I give up a lot of sustain for minor mobility or damage increases.  What are your thoughts?

 

I am also playing a Celestial build currently.  It feels pretty good.  I'm still painfully slow on the field, but I'm very hard to kill so I can often take my time even when outnumbered.  I'm using Aristocracy rune to quick stack might so when I do move in for the kill I can still burst pretty well.  I wouldn't call it great or innovative, but it doesn't feel terrible.