Alacrity

[Daniel Handler.4816]

19 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I don't say that engineer will get the effect. With scrapper getting quickness, I doubt that we will get alacrity as well. It was just the first example coming to my mind as an engineer main how it could get implemented without using time manipulation.

 

About regeneration being always tied thematically to water, light or life: let's test that claim.

• Bandage blast, not related to water, light or life, they are literally just bandages
• Hide in shadows, not related to these
• "Hold the Line", just an encouraging shout, not related
• Dogged march, just discipline from a warrior, not related
• Upper hand, implies that thief takes advantage by taking the enemy by surprise after an attack

 

There are probably more examples, but I guess this gets the point across. It's not true that regeneration is always themed around these. Unless you want to claim that literally everything a living being does is "life themed", at which point it becomes meaningless since it applies to everything in the game then.

 

That alacrity used to not be a boon doesn't matter, it is one now. There is nothing dictating anet that they have to theme it around time always. They can easily implement it in other ways and I guess they will do so in the future.

•  

Life category is broad. and dogged march/upper hand are more nebulous. But you have to admit they do theme things in general.  Photosynthesis, eating eggs, and applying bandages are ways we heal ourselves. Shadows and guardian shouts come from light. People were surprised that firebrand got a water field. But not that a skill that increases healing effectiveness produces a water field, and that none of the fire skills on guardian heal.

 

If more professions get alacrity it is probably going to be tied to skill that makes an ethereal field, or something mentioning time, or memory. There is some thought into what does what.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[ZDragon.3046]

4 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Revenants explicitly manipulate time though. That's what the Mists are. Renegade's f2 even says "Open a portal through the mists of time, unleashing a storm of artillery from the united legions."

perhaps but thats more like a gateway not manipulating a persons actions if you ask me. Perhaps opening a gate way and manipulating time upon a person is vastly different I still dont think the orders from above works through time manipulation but thats just me. 

[Jski.6180]

The way ppl build pve times to have pema effects i image anet balance pve content as if you do have these effects like alacrity and quinkness so why not just give all the class some means of getting these boons and or supporting others with them.

 

There no good rune set for these boons and the sigil are questionable for quinkness (non for alacrity sadly). What would be the harm in pve adding this effect in other then letting lesser used classes brake into the meta?

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

The way ppl build pve times to have pema effects i image anet balance pve content as if you do have these effects like alacrity and quinkness so why not just give all the class some means of getting these boons and or supporting others with them.

 

There no good rune set for these boons and the sigil are questionable for quinkness (non for alacrity sadly). What would be the harm in pve adding this effect in other then letting lesser used classes brake into the meta?

Or, maybe if your goal is to "give X buff to 5-10 people" then roll a class/build that does exactly that. If your goal is just to "play ele" then you already can do it, at the very least as dps.

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

The way ppl build pve times to have pema effects i image anet balance pve content as if you do have these effects like alacrity and quinkness so why not just give all the class some means of getting these boons and or supporting others with them.

 

There no good rune set for these boons and the sigil are questionable for quinkness (non for alacrity sadly). What would be the harm in pve adding this effect in other then letting lesser used classes brake into the meta?

Because not every class needs access to everything. They are different classes, they have access to different stuff, that's what makes them interesting.

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Because not every class needs access to everything. They are different classes, they have access to different stuff, that's what makes them interesting.

Then why dose any class need a perma effect of these boons? My point is if you let more then a few classes get the same boon and not let one class just have a monopoly on a boon to a perma level then you can have more classes in a group and still get near if not perma level of that boon because they are working as a group. If one class gets a perma effect then there no real team work going on just one class spamming its effect over and over.

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Then why dose any class need a perma effect of these boons? My point is if you let more then a few classes get the same boon and not let one class just have a monopoly on a boon to a perma level then you can have more classes in a group and still get near if not perma level of that boon because they are working as a group. If one class gets a perma effect then there no real team work going on just one class spamming its effect over and over.

It's already like that - as far as boons go, no class has a monopoly on those. So, it's okay, isn't it?

 

Or is it that you want specifically eles to have access to everything, and you don't really care about the balance at all?

[Jski.6180]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's already like that - as far as boons go, no class has a monopoly on those. So, it's okay, isn't it?

 

Or is it that you want specifically eles to have access to everything, and you don't really care about the balance at all?

Every class should have access to everything though elite spec that kind of the point. The problem with ele is anet made the ele class 2 times over with not enofe differences between them in effects. The other classes with not much different between there elite spec and there core already had all of the effects to start with so it seems that the game is already set up in that way but its only for a hand full of classes not most of the classes as it should be.

[Sobx.1758]

49 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Every class should have access to everything though elite spec that kind of the point.

...said who exactly? Pretty sure that's not THE point.

 

49 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The problem with ele is anet made the ele class 2 times over with not enofe differences between them in effects.

If you don't like that then you're pretty lucky -you can play more than 1 class! Hard to imagine, I know, but you really can do exactly that.

49 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The other classes with not much different between there elite spec and there core already had all of the effects to start with so it seems that the game is already set up in that way but its only for a hand full of classes not most of the classes as it should be.

What are you even talking about?

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Every class should have access to everything though elite spec that kind of the point. The problem with ele is anet made the ele class 2 times over with not enofe differences between them in effects. The other classes with not much different between there elite spec and there core already had all of the effects to start with so it seems that the game is already set up in that way but its only for a hand full of classes not most of the classes as it should be.

You just entirely made this up yourself. No one ever stated that every class should have access to everything through elite specs.

 

Every class is supposed to fill any major role in the end. Meaning that you should be able to play stuff like a thief tank (daredevil) or necromancer support (scourge).

 

But the classes are still going to do stuff in their own ways. Not every class will get group barrier just because scourge has it as a support feature.

Not every class will get access to every boon.

Not every class will be able to corrupt enemy boons into conditions.

 

That elementalist is supposed to fill the support role (tempest) does not mean that they should get access to alacrity and quickness. They got the ability to support their entire team with 25 stacks permanent might, that is the boon support they got as well as aura share as their unique support quality (no other class can share auras with their entire team).

 

Just accept it, there is nothing dictating that ele should have access to these boons.

[Infusion.7149]

"Every class should have access to everything" is an assertion that got us into the mess that is scrapper in WvW now , along with PVE staff mirage. I was against giving engineers quickness before the patch but people went on about how scrappers needed to be good in PVE (it wasn't bad, just not meta because holo did more benchmark DPS).

Strong boons should come with a drawback , that isn't the case right now unless you play chrono which has been nerfed heavily (it is both harder to play and cannot heal well or apply fury/might appreciably even if you run pack runes). Quickness scrapper also has the drawback of lack of fury output unless you bring a turret. The obvious conclusion is that CQB is overtuned because you essentially need zero boon duration to apply fury in PVE ; Mantra of Potence has might applied as well and on top of this you have 12s cooldown aegis without even running a utility or weapon for it. Staff mirage is another outlier particularly when confusion procs , so the confusion should be toned down to make it viable when confusion doesn't proc heavily , it applies many stacks of might at the same time as putting out alacrity and fury (on auto attack, no less).

The way I see it is a support spec should only be doing ~27K DPS unless it's giving up most of its utility for one main boon. That's why I'm against increasing scrapper DPS (it's just under 28K right now) and instead would rather have a CQB nerf (~29-31K + aegis spam). Quickness is one of the strongest boons right now along with alacrity on classes that can benefit from it. Might isn't as valuable really because many classes can apply it themselves and 750 power at maximum on classes (~25% improvement over berserker's gear builds with 3000 power and less at ~19% if you include 4000 power as baseline); fury is self applied for some classes. In order for classes such as power tempest (or heal tempest) or power herald to even see use given that they gained 10 man boons in PVE, might and fury has to be reduced on builds that can apply quickness and alacrity. The main reason boon-wise you would bring a herald in WVW is fury+might so it would be the same for PVE if other sources of might/fury other than druid (which is more or less solely a support spec with neither quickness or alacrity, just spirits/spotter) are reduced. The tradeoff of running herald instead of druid would be minimized if you use Assassin's Presence instead of Spotter and people hit crit cap without spotter.

Example comps that could be made if CQB were nerfed along with mirage:

• full boon chrono x 2 (negligible damage but covers quickness+alac) , druid (might+fury+healing) , BS, any DPS x6 --- pre cQB raid comp , better for power fights and low damage pressure
  ---> full boon chrono <20K DPS , so total theoretical squad DPS = 33K from BS + 6x 36K average pDPS = 250K DPS before chronos + druid = ~285K total
• HB x 2 ( healing, fury, quickness, covers might with Empower) , alac ren/mirage (additional might , fury if mirage , alac), BS, any DPS x6 --- fractal mirror comp , many strikes run this with one heal per subgroup
  ---> total squad DPS = ~28K from alac ren , 33K from BS  , 6x average 36K DPS = 276K DPS before HB ~280K total
• CQB x2 (quickness), condi RRx 2 , cBS , tempest for healing + 10 man might/fury, any cDPS x4 (one brings spirits) --- better for condi fights or high damage pressure
  ---> total squad DPS = ~60K from CQB x 2 , ~74K from condi RR x2 , ~34K from cBS , 4x 35K average cDPS ~310K total  , which is why CQB should be shaved down and condi RR
• CQB x2 (quickness), alac ren/mirage , cBS , tempest for healing + 10 man might/fury, any cDPS x5 (one brings spirits) --- better for condi fights or high damage pressure
  ---> total squad DPS = ~60K from CQB x 2 , ~32K from condi alac , ~34K from cBS , 5x 35K average cDPS ~300K total  , which is why CQB should be shaved down along with solo condi alac renegade
• StM chrono x 2, alac ren (additional might, alac), BS, heal tempest (10 man might/fury), any DPS x5 --- far less reliable
  ---> total squad DPS = ~55K from StM x 2 , ~28K from alac, ~33K from BS, 5x 36K average pDPS = total ~ 295K DPS
• StM chrono x 2, alac mirage , BS, tempest for healing + 10 man might/fury,  DPS x5 --- far less reliable
  ---> total squad DPS = ~55K from StM x 2  , ~28K + 40 confusion from alac mirage , ~33K from BS , 5 x 36K average pDPS = total ~ 295K DPS before 40 confusion from mirage
• Boon thief x 2, condi RR x2 , BS, heal of any kind (boon thief covers all but alacrity), cDPS x4 --- showing boon thief nerf was heavy handed as you lose over 10K squad DPS
  ---> total squad DPS = ~44K from BT x2 , ~74K from condi RR x2 , ~33K from BS , 4x 35K average cDPS = total ~290K squad DPS with condi RR
• power quickness scrapper x2 (sort of meme) , alac ren , BS, heal tempest  for 10 man might/fury,  DPS x5
  ---> total squad DPS = ~54K from 2x Quickness scrapper, ~28K from alac, ~33K from BS, 5x 36K average pDPS= total ~295K squad DPS (~288K before the 2.5s quickness change) with inherently higher risk than CQB or HB setups (no aegis)
• Heal scrapper for quickness x2 , alac ren/mirage, BS, power herald for 10 man might / fury, DPS x5 --- better for when the damage pressure is only from condis and not big damage infrequent hits
  ---> total squad DPS = ~28K from alac , ~33K from BS , ~28K from power herald, 5x 36K average pDPS = total  ~270K DPS which is under-performing

TL;DR: Stop asking for more powercreep. Staff mirage especially and CQB need to be hit more in the PVE context mainly damage-wise.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Kodama.6453]

13 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"Every class should have access to everything" is an assertion that got us into the mess that is scrapper in WvW now , along with PVE staff mirage. I was against giving engineers quickness before the patch but people went on about how scrappers needed to be good in PVE (it wasn't bad, just not meta because holo did more benchmark DPS).

Strong boons should come with a drawback , that isn't the case right now unless you play chrono which has been nerfed heavily (it is both harder to play and cannot heal well or apply fury/might appreciably even if you run pack runes). Quickness scrapper also has the drawback of lack of fury output unless you bring a turret. The obvious conclusion is that CQB is overtuned because you essentially need zero boon duration to apply fury in PVE ; Mantra of Potence has might applied as well and on top of this you have 12s cooldown aegis without even running a utility or weapon for it. Staff mirage is another outlier particularly when confusion procs , so the confusion should be toned down to make it viable when confusion doesn't proc heavily , it applies many stacks of might at the same time as putting out alacrity and fury (on auto attack, no less).

The way I see it is a support spec should only be doing ~27K DPS unless it's giving up most of its utility for one main boon. That's why I'm against increasing scrapper DPS (it's just under 28K right now) and instead would rather have a CQB nerf (~29-31K + aegis spam). Quickness is one of the strongest boons right now along with alacrity on classes that can benefit from it. Might isn't as valuable really because many classes can apply it themselves and 750 power at maximum on classes (~25% improvement over berserker's gear builds with 3000 power and less at ~19% if you include 4000 power as baseline); fury is self applied for some classes. In order for classes such as power tempest (or heal tempest) or power herald to even see use given that they gained 10 man boons in PVE, might and fury has to be reduced on builds that can apply quickness and alacrity. The main reason boon-wise you would bring a herald in WVW is fury+might so it would be the same for PVE if other sources of might/fury other than druid (which is more or less solely a support spec with neither quickness or alacrity, just spirits/spotter) are reduced. The tradeoff of running herald instead of druid would be minimized if you use Assassin's Presence instead of Spotter and people hit crit cap without spotter.

Example comps that could be made if CQB were nerfed along with mirage:

• full boon chrono x 2 (negligible damage but covers quickness+alac) , druid (might+fury+healing) , BS, any DPS x6 --- pre cQB raid comp , better for power fights and low damage pressure
  ---> full boon chrono <20K DPS , so total theoretical squad DPS = 33K from BS + 6x 36K average pDPS = 250K DPS before chronos + druid = ~285K total
• HB x 2 ( healing, fury, quickness, covers might with Empower) , alac ren/mirage (additional might , fury if mirage , alac), BS, any DPS x6 --- fractal mirror comp , many strikes run this with one heal per subgroup
  ---> total squad DPS = ~28K from alac ren , 33K from BS  , 6x average 36K DPS = 276K DPS before HB ~280K total
• CQB x2 (quickness), condi RRx 2 , cBS , tempest for healing + 10 man might/fury, any cDPS x4 (one brings spirits) --- better for condi fights or high damage pressure
  ---> total squad DPS = ~60K from CQB x 2 , ~74K from condi RR x2 , ~34K from cBS , 4x 35K average cDPS ~310K total  , which is why CQB should be shaved down and condi RR
• CQB x2 (quickness), alac ren/mirage , cBS , tempest for healing + 10 man might/fury, any cDPS x5 (one brings spirits) --- better for condi fights or high damage pressure
  ---> total squad DPS = ~60K from CQB x 2 , ~32K from condi alac , ~34K from cBS , 5x 35K average cDPS ~300K total  , which is why CQB should be shaved down along with solo condi alac renegade
• StM chrono x 2, alac ren (additional might, alac), BS, heal tempest (10 man might/fury), any DPS x5 --- far less reliable
  ---> total squad DPS = ~55K from StM x 2 , ~28K from alac, ~33K from BS, 5x 36K average pDPS = total ~ 295K DPS
• StM chrono x 2, alac mirage , BS, tempest for healing + 10 man might/fury,  DPS x5 --- far less reliable
  ---> total squad DPS = ~55K from StM x 2  , ~28K + 40 confusion from alac mirage , ~33K from BS , 5 x 36K average pDPS = total ~ 295K DPS before 40 confusion from mirage
• Boon thief x 2, condi RR x2 , BS, heal of any kind (boon thief covers all but alacrity), cDPS x4 --- showing boon thief nerf was heavy handed as you lose over 10K squad DPS
  ---> total squad DPS = ~44K from BT x2 , ~74K from condi RR x2 , ~33K from BS , 4x 35K average cDPS = total ~290K squad DPS with condi RR
• power quickness scrapper x2 (sort of meme) , alac ren , BS, heal tempest  for 10 man might/fury,  DPS x5
  ---> total squad DPS = ~54K from 2x Quickness scrapper, ~28K from alac, ~33K from BS, 5x 36K average pDPS= total ~295K squad DPS (~288K before the 2.5s quickness change) with inherently higher risk than CQB or HB setups (no aegis)
• Heal scrapper for quickness x2 , alac ren/mirage, BS, power herald for 10 man might / fury, DPS x5 --- better for when the damage pressure is only from condis and not big damage infrequent hits
  ---> total squad DPS = ~28K from alac , ~33K from BS , ~28K from power herald, 5x 36K average pDPS = total  ~270K DPS which is under-performing

TL;DR: Stop asking for more powercreep. Staff mirage especially and CQB need to be hit more in the PVE context mainly damage-wise.

Dude, there was literally just one single reason to ever bring a scrapper in PvE and that was just as a superspeed bot for escorts (dragon missions and the strike with the tank).

 

Scrapper was worthless in PvE. Now we might actually find some groups willing to play with us there outside of the very niche scenario of having to give an npc perma superspeed.

 

I agree that classes don't need to get everything, but scrapper definitely needed help in PvE.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Dude, there was literally just one single reason to ever bring a scrapper in PvE and that was just as a superspeed bot for escorts (dragon missions and the strike with the tank).

 

Scrapper was worthless in PvE. Now we might actually find some groups willing to play with us there outside of the very niche scenario of having to give an noc perma superspeed.

 

I agree that classes don't need to get everything, but scrapper definitely needed help in PvE.

Superspeed holo was better than scrapper for PVE ; the Glass Cannon change meant that power scrapper is ~33-35K benchmark with higher scholar uptime most of the time which isn't terrible.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Kodama.6453]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

Superspeed holo was better than scrapper for PVE.

Yes, I personally used holosmith myself for providing superspeed in these scenarios. But I saw scrapper at least being accepted in a team for this purpose.

 

For everything else, scrapper was just shunned away. So please don't imply that scrapper was not bad in  PvE. 

[Kodama.6453]

20 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Superspeed holo was better than scrapper for PVE ; the Glass Cannon change meant that power scrapper is ~33-35K benchmark with higher scholar uptime most of the time which isn't terrible.

Saw that you edited the bit about dps scrapper there.

 

Yes, dps scrapper is not per se bad. But it competes with holosmith, both are power based engineer elite specs. Without the quickness, there really wasn't a reason to play a dps scrapper over a holosmith, since holosmith was simply better at it.

 

With quickness, you can actually make an argument to use a scrapper instead of holosmith now in case your team is in need of quickness.

[Mik.3401]

I agree and it’s so ironic they killed the ‘time class’ by making sure other players are satisfied as well. Just like they didn’t want any healer at first and look at the HFB now. It’s a pity but oh well, I also agree the clock symbol is kind of out of place at this point

[Kodama.6453]

17 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I agree and it’s so ironic they killed the ‘time class’ by making sure other players are satisfied as well. Just like they didn’t want any healer at first and look at the HFB now. It’s a pity but oh well, I also agree the clock symbol is kind of out of place at this point

"They didn't want any healer at first", I think this is something that is oftenly misunderstood.

 

Anet's goal was that there is no dedicated class for healing, like how monk has been in GW1. The goal was that all classes can do any task: healing, tanking, damage, etc.

 

That they are not against people building and playing as dedicated healers by itself was obvious from the beginning. ALL classes have access to traits and skills to heal their allies from the beginning of the game. Playing as a healer for others was always possible, just look at engineer's med kit, elementalist's water attunement, etc.

 

They were imbalanced, since some classes were better at healing others, but every class was able to do this. Ranger for example was pretty weak as a healer in comparison, so they added druid to enable rangers as dedicated healers.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Mik.3401]

18 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

"They didn't want any healer at first", I think this is something that is oftenly misunderstood.

 

Anet's goal was that there is no dedicated class for healing, like how monk has been in GW1. The goal was that all classes can do any task: healing, tanking, damage, etc.

 

That they are not against people building and playing as dedicated healers by itself was obvious from the beginning. ALL classes have access to traits and skills to heal their allies from the beginning of the game. Playing as a healer for others was always possible, just look at engineer's med kit, elementalist's water attunement, etc.

 

They were imbalanced, since some classes were better at healing others, but every class was able to do this. Ranger for example was pretty weak as a healer in comparison, so they added druid to enable rangers as dedicated healers.

That’s true, a dedicated healer was what I meant as well. The healing options have been there since the beginning that’s true, but they were never able to carry the team the way it is possible now. In a way I think people got little less cautious while doing pve content because they know Hfb/Druid is there for them - and that’s I think something Anet wanted to prevent. They wanted to avoid having to wait for a healer to start doing a dungeon or any other endgame content. Just like how it was with monks in GW1

Edited June 8, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Jski.6180]

Calling it here Alacrity needs to have a 10 sec cap duration. With the update to super speed today they need to make it into a boon with a 10 sec cap as well as make quirkiness have a 10 sec cap as well. Making these 3 boons the "super" boon with the need to more then one reapply and you cant over stack one skill single duration.

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Calling it here Alacrity needs to have a 10 sec cap duration. With the update to super speed today they need to make it into a boon with a 10 sec cap as well as make quirkiness have a 10 sec cap as well. Making these 3 boons the "super" boon with the need to more then one reapply and you cant over stack one skill single duration.

Superspeed is not a boon.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

needs to

Why? What exactly would be so good about that change?

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Why? What exactly would be so good about that change?

 

 

I can't think of a reason that change would be good, but I'm pretty sure the answer you get will have something to do with how bad Ele is. 🤣

[Jski.6180]

22 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Superspeed is not a boon.

Its acting like one and i am suggesting it should become one after this update. But i am tieing it together with the other powerful boons of alacrity and quinkness to fill that short duration but strong effect. A "if your a battery build that should be about all your doing" (A battery build in most mmorpgs work off of being mana reg bots but in this game mana is time so cdr effects are battery rolls for the group) by making it alacrity 10 sec duration cap you battery build will need to keep reapplying the alactiry effect during combat more often then say the current 30 sec cap leaving less room for the build to do other things making the battery roll more set in stone.

[Infusion.7149]

If you make alacrity capped at 10s duration and don't reduce cooldowns then people will just stack renegades (see condi RR). That makes team comp even more heavily one class.

If the cooldown is reduced globally in all modes then there is less counterplay to alacrity as strips will have less effect. You really need to think of what you are suggesting, you think it would be positive but it isn't.

Before spouting off about boons think:
* which classes can apply it and what are the drawbacks of running it
* what is the boon duration required
* if it isn't split between modes what is the counterplay

Edited June 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you make alacrity capped at 10s duration and don't reduce cooldowns then people will just stack renegades (see condi RR). That makes team comp even more heavily one class.

If the cooldown is reduced globally in all modes then there is less counterplay to alacrity as strips will have less effect. You really need to think of what you are suggesting, you think it would be positive but it isn't.

Before spouting off about boons think:
* which classes can apply it and what are the drawbacks of running it
* what is the boon duration required
* if it isn't split between modes what is the counterplay

That not even close to how alacrity works the cdr happens the full time of the cd of the skill not just at one moment of the skill it self of use or even coming off of cd. How would you need to stack renegades to get cdr from alacrity?

 

It would make strip stronger on alacrity there is no counter play for alacrity for strips that the point of boon strips. Agen the sec you have alacrity boon on you the cdr is happening. If the strip dose not happen in that sec the alacrity is just applied then your getting an effect from that alacrity.

 

It would apply to all classes who have these boons. There is no required duration of the boons to get effects from them. There is no counter play to the boon it self  vs strip.