Condi scourge condition transfer

[Hallow.7368]

I can't figure out what I'm missing. Every build I'm looking at uses master of corruption and says to open you do blood is power > plaguelands > blood is power > desert shroud to transfer conditions, but this only transfers 2 conditions and this opening generates 3. None of the builds suggest dagger offhand and it feels like when I'm testing this to learn it I end up obliterating myself because I just leave 5 stacks of bleeds on myself. I've considered trying dagger and trying to incorporate it into the rotation but it seems overkill since this only really happens on the opening or whenever blood is power lines up with plaguelands. Should I just use F2 to turn it into a boon? Not like vigors very useful, but it seems better than just letting 5 stacks of bleeds tick on myself.

[KrHome.1920]

The opening combo should transfer the bleeds and torment to the target and just leave the (rather useless) poison on yourself.

 

See this video:

[BATS] 36.3k Condition Scourge - YouTube

[Black Storm.6974]

11 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

The opening combo should transfer the bleeds and torment to the target and just leave the (rather useless) poison on yourself.

 

See this video:

[BATS] 36.3k Condition Scourge - YouTube

Isn’t the transfer random like the cleansing?

[KrHome.1920]

Cleanses and transfers are Last-in-First-out.

 

Corruptions are random.

 

If the transfers were random, then either offhand dagger would indeed be preferable over warhorn or the build would need another rotation.

 

Side-Note: Corruptions used to be LiFo too, but ANet decided it would be a good idea to make them random, a few years ago. ANet likes inconsistencies.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Hallow.7368]

3 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Cleanses and transfers are Last-in-First-out.

 

Corruptions are random.

 

If the transfers were random, then either offhand dagger would indeed be preferable over warhorn or the build would need another rotation.

 

Side-Note: Corruptions used to be LiFo too, but ANet decided it would be a good idea to make them random, a few years ago. ANet likes inconsistencies.

 

I followed the opener to a T though and it's consistently leaving the bleeds on me. If this is true I'm likely doing something wrong so I'll go watch that video and try again. Thanks!

[KrHome.1920]

You are doing something wrong. The opener is:

1. BiP: bleed+torment

2. Plaguelands: bleed+poison

3. BiP: bleed+torment

4. Plague Sending: transfers bleed+torment

 

This combo is done multiple times in the video and Plague Sending does always remove bleed+torment. 

[Black Storm.6974]

4 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

You are doing something wrong. The opener is:

1. BiP: bleed+torment

2. Plaguelands: bleed+poison

3. BiP: bleed+torment

4. Plague Sending: transfers bleed+torment

 

This combo is done multiple times in the video and Plague Sending does always remove bleed+torment. 

The combo is only done once in the video, as opening combo.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Black Storm.6974

[Nimon.7840]

5 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

You are doing something wrong. The opener is:

1. BiP: bleed+torment

2. Plaguelands: bleed+poison

3. BiP: bleed+torment

4. Plague Sending: transfers bleed+torment

 

This combo is done multiple times in the video and Plague Sending does always remove bleed+torment. 

Don't think that's correct.

 

In actual raids, if you use BiP > plague lands it almost always transfers the torment and the poison.

It feels more like it's transferring the most threatening conditions:

Torment: because the dmg potential is higher than bleed.

Poison: because it might lower your incoming healing.

 

Therefore my opener in raids looks like this most of the times:

F1 > BiP > F1 > BiP > F5 > Plaguelands > F1.

In some fights you can precast shades.

Then it looks like this:

Precast: F1 > F1 (not on Boss)

BiP > F1 > BiP > F5 > Plaguelands.

 

But I'm going to test it again this afternoon

 

 

[Sigmoid.7082]

5 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Don't think that's correct.

 

In actual raids, if you use BiP > plague lands it almost always transfers the torment and the poison.

It feels more like it's transferring the most threatening conditions:

Torment: because the dmg potential is higher than bleed.

Poison: because it might lower your incoming healing.

 

Therefore my opener in raids looks like this most of the times:

F1 > BiP > F1 > BiP > F5 > Plaguelands > F1.

In some fights you can precast shades.

Then it looks like this:

Precast: F1 > F1 (not on Boss)

BiP > F1 > BiP > F5 > Plaguelands.

 

But I'm going to test it again this afternoon

 

 

I think it used to be the way Kr Described but it looks like something has changed with the order of transfers. They have some form of priority system now likely.

 

Edit:

Turns out that it works differently in PvP than it does in the Aerodrome, and i assume PvE.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[Hallow.7368]

4 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Don't think that's correct.

 

In actual raids, if you use BiP > plague lands it almost always transfers the torment and the poison.

It feels more like it's transferring the most threatening conditions:

Torment: because the dmg potential is higher than bleed.

Poison: because it might lower your incoming healing.

 

Therefore my opener in raids looks like this most of the times:

F1 > BiP > F1 > BiP > F5 > Plaguelands > F1.

In some fights you can precast shades.

Then it looks like this:

Precast: F1 > F1 (not on Boss)

BiP > F1 > BiP > F5 > Plaguelands.

 

But I'm going to test it again this afternoon

 

 

So do you not transfer your conditions? Or does f1 trigger the condi transfer? Because I thought only f5 did because it's you *entering" shroud

[KrHome.1920]

No the combo is not done just once in the video. 🤨
 

And since I don't like posting kitten I tested it by myself yesterday. In 5 out of 5 attempts I transferred the bleeds and torment.

 

Since I don't know what else to say I am out of this thread.

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, KrHome.1920 said:

No the combo is not done just once in the video. 🤨
 

And since I don't like posting kitten I tested it by myself yesterday. In 5 out of 5 attempts I transferred the bleeds and torment.

 

Since I don't know what else to say I am out of this thread.

That's actually fascinating. This combo 100% of the time Transfers the Torment and Poison for me. Always has.

Transfers for me always go left to right with how they are displayed on the buff bar, no matter the order of application, rest duration, or what the conditions (tested with all corruption skills, bleed always goes to the furthest right, so is never Transferred with 3 conditions on, even if applied last, most rest duration, most stacks etc.). 

 

I always assumed that's just how it worked and adjusted my rotation accordingly as described by @Nimon.7840. Now I'm really curious what causes that different behavior between accounts.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Agrippa.1693]

As far as I know, it's actually quite complex.

I think you have to press F5 (shroud) precisely in the aftercast of the 2nd BiP. Then and only then you get the right 2 condi's to transfer (Torment and Bleed). 

I haven't tested it yet, but if you pause the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW9vqxZnp_w video at the exact right timing around 5 3/4th of a second, you see F5 is already in recharge, whereas BiP isnt yet, and it still transfers the right conditions.

 

The reason behind it, I don't really know, but I guess it has to do something with the fact that Plague Sending works on your first attack (or first strike damage), whereas it can already be activated beforehand ... But again, not entirely sure how it exactly works though

 

[Asum.4960]

44 minutes ago, Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

As far as I know, it's actually quite complex.

I think you have to press F5 (shroud) precisely in the aftercast of the 2nd BiP. Then and only then you get the right 2 condi's to transfer (Torment and Bleed). 

I haven't tested it yet, but if you pause the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW9vqxZnp_w video at the exact right timing around 5 3/4th of a second, you see F5 is already in recharge, whereas BiP isnt yet, and it still transfers the right conditions.

 

The reason behind it, I don't really know, but I guess it has to do something with the fact that Plague Sending works on your first attack (or first strike damage), whereas it can already be activated beforehand ... But again, not entirely sure how it exactly works though

 

It's an interesting theory, but I can't seem to be able to reproduce it. I tried every timing I could (from essentially pressing the second BiP and Shroud at the same time to catching the last millisecond of after-cast and everything inbetween, with and without Quickness just to see. In 30+ attempts, the Bleed, without a single exception, always remains and the Poison is transferred. 

[Black Storm.6974]

From my testing, it seems to transfer Conditions following an order of priority, where self applied Bleeding and Torment had priority over self applied Poison (through Plaguelands). I can say that because changing the order of application of the conditions on myself didn’t change the results.
 

I have also tried the combo BiP/CPC/BiP. In that case selfapplied Poison, Weakness and Cripple always had priority over selfapplied Bleeding and Torment, which remained on my character.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Black Storm.6974

[Asum.4960]

1 minute ago, Black Storm.6974 said:

 

From my testing, it seems to transfer Conditions following an order of priority, where self applied Bleeding and Torment had priority over self applied Poison (through Plaguelands). I can say that cause changing the order of application of the conditions on myself didn’t change the results.
 

I have also tried the combo BiP/CPC/BiP. In that case selfapplied Poison, Weakness and Cripple always had priority over selfapplied Bleeding and Torment, which remained on my character.

The latter with CPC makes sense with what I observe, since those conditions get placed to the left of bleed, meaning they would have priority in Transfers according to my theory. 

 

But you are saying in the case of Plaguelands you in turn do also observe the behavior where the Bleed and Torment gets transferred, while the Poison remains?

[Black Storm.6974]

9 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

It's an interesting theory, but I can't seem to be able to reproduce it. I tried every timing I could (from essentially pressing the second BiP and Shroud at the same time to catching the last millisecond of after-cast and everything inbetween, with and without Quickness just to see. In 30+ attempts, the Bleed, without a single exception, always remains and the Poison is transferred. 

On my account, the combo BiP/Plaguelands/BiP always transferred Bleeding and Torment (from today testings), no matter when (during the cast or after the cast of the second BiP) Desert Shroud was casted to transfer Conditions. I have specified from today testing cause I have the feeling that in the past Bleeding used to remain on my character, but I’m not entirely sure.

[Black Storm.6974]

6 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

The latter with CPC makes sense with what I observe, since those conditions get placed to the left of bleed, meaning they would have priority in Transfers according to my theory. 

 

But you are saying in the case of Plaguelands you in turn do also observe the behavior where the Bleed and Torment gets transferred, while the Poison remains?

Yes, with the Plaguelands combo Bleeding and Torment always got transferred, while Poison always remained on my character, no matter the casting order of the three skills.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Black Storm.6974

[Asum.4960]

4 minutes ago, Black Storm.6974 said:

Yes, with the Plaguelands combo Bleeding and Torment always got transferred, while Poison always remained on my character, no matter the casting order of the three skills.

Weird. Yea, I'm stumped. I tried everything now, even to going into the options and changing things like Simple Conditions floaters, Simply Party UI, different/turning off Fast Casting options, Target priorities, everything - just on the off chance that some Spaghetti code might, somehow, affect condition Transfer rules. 

 

Still, without exception the left to right rule holds for me and Torment and Poison get transferred, Bleed remains.

[Black Storm.6974]

24 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Weird. Yea, I'm stumped. I tried everything now, even to going into the options and changing things like Simple Conditions floaters, Simply Party UI, different/turning off Fast Casting options, Target priorities, everything - just on the off chance that some Spaghetti code might, somehow, affect condition Transfer rules. 

 

Still, without exception the left to right rule holds for me and Torment and Poison get transferred, Bleed remains.

Now that I’m better observing, conditions have their icons displayed in an order that has nothing to do with the casting order. 

 

I’d say that from my testing with the Plaguelands combo the Conditions got transferred from right to left, instead, with the CPC combo from left to right.
 

Other combinations on skills had different results, but the results are always consistent repeating the same combination. I don’t really understand how it works and why it is appears to not be the same for everyone.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Black Storm.6974

[Asum.4960]

19 minutes ago, Black Storm.6974 said:

Now that I’m better observing, conditions have their icons displayed in an order that has nothing to do with the casting order. 

 

I’d say that from my testing with the Plaguelands combo the Conditions got transferred from right to left, instead, with the CPC combo from left to right.
 

Other combinations on skills had different results, but the results are always consistent repeating the same combination. I don’t really understand how it works and why it is appears to not be the same for everyone.

Yep, for me it's consistently left to right. Really the only factor left that comes to mind right now, if you don't mind answering, are you NA or EU (grasping at straws here for what, somehow, could be the factor)?

[Nimon.7840]

36 minutes ago, Black Storm.6974 said:

Now that I’m better observing, conditions have their icons displayed in an order that has nothing to do with the casting order. 

 

I’d say that from my testing with the Plaguelands combo the Conditions got transferred from right to left, instead, with the CPC combo from left to right.
 

Other combinations on skills had different results, but the results are always consistent repeating the same combination. I don’t really understand how it works and why it is appears to not be the same for everyone.

nope they dont.

try with BiP + Epidemic

it will give you: Bleeding, Torment, then Weakness and Vulnerability
in my buff bar its the following order from left to right: Weakness, Vuln, Torment, Bleeding
after using f5, it always transfers weakness and Torment xD

wtf is this spaghetti code?

BiP, Plagelands, BiP always transfers poison and torment for me.
condi order on me from left to right: Poison, Torment, bleeding

i really think my theory about the "most threatening" conditions getting removed is true. well at least what anet sees as most threatening

 

EDIT: i asked in snowcrows discord. maybe anyone knows. gonna give an update as soon as i get an answer

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Nimon.7840

[Black Storm.6974]

18 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

nope they dont.

try with BiP + Epidemic

it will give you: Bleeding, Torment, then Weakness and Vulnerability
in my buff bar its the following order from left to right: Weakness, Vuln, Torment, Bleeding
after using f5, it always transfers weakness and Torment xD

Yes, that is what I meant to say. Specific combinations of skills seem to always give the same results when repeated. Different combinations ok skills can give different results. The results even seem to be different from account to account, or following conditions I don’t understand, since different testers had different results.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Black Storm.6974

[Black Storm.6974]

27 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Yep, for me it's consistently left to right. Really the only factor left that comes to mind right now, if you don't mind answering, are you NA or EU (grasping at straws here for what, somehow, could be the factor)?

Since we are examining the mysterious conditions that lead different people to get different results, your question seems pertinent. I am on EU.

[Asum.4960]

47 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

nope they dont.

try with BiP + Epidemic

it will give you: Bleeding, Torment, then Weakness and Vulnerability
in my buff bar its the following order from left to right: Weakness, Vuln, Torment, Bleeding
after using f5, it always transfers weakness and Torment xD

wtf is this spaghetti code?

BiP, Plagelands, BiP always transfers poison and torment for me.
condi order on me from left to right: Poison, Torment, bleeding

i really think my theory about the "most threatening" conditions getting removed is true. well at least what anet sees as most threatening

 

EDIT: i asked in snowcrows discord. maybe anyone knows. gonna give an update as soon as i get an answer

 

For BiP + Epidemic it depends on order used and gives me either Torment, Bleed, Weakness Vuln (Epi, then BiP) or Weakness, Vuln, Torment Bleed (BiP then Epi). So here their positioning depends on when the conditions were applied, while for some other skills it doesn't and their position is fixed.

Further for transfers this actually does indeed also break my left to right theory and also always transfers Torment and Weakness as well in both cases for me. 

 

For BiP, Plaguelands BiP, same for me. Poison, Torment, Bleeding. Poison and Torment get's transferred. 

This order and transfer priority is fixed and remains the same for BiP, BiP, Plaguelands, or Plaguelands, BiP, BiP.

 

What breaks the "theoretically most threatening condition" theory though is that for some BiP, Plaguelands, BiP transfers the Torment and Bleed, and not the poison, while for others such as us and the OP, Torment and Poison is always transferred and Bleed remains. 

How would different accounts have different priorities if there was a coded theoretical threat level/priority?

 

E: Also for BiP + CPC, Cripple and Weakness gets Transferred, Bleed and Torment remains, no matter of skill order/combination. Now I'm just wholly confused.

 

@Black Storm.6974Well, that's not it either then. EU as well, and we have different transfer priorities. 

 

If this turns out to be something super obvious and simple, I'm going to feel real stupid.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Asum.4960