New changes to retal hurting Support FB in WvW

[Sonja.3497]

WvW Support FBs unite and count your data! My dear friend Evi and I have noticed an unintentional change as a result of the recent patch that the bonus event is making far more obvious. With the FB change to retal, support firebrands are taking a huge loss in WXP as compared to what a DPS earns in a squad. Example: 3 Hour WvW raid. Two Guardians. Same play time, same bonuses, and, boosters. In the WvW raid (very successful raid) support FB getting only 10-16 bags. In five days the DH DPS got 67 levels. Support FB has gotten 36. Can you please count your data? Post here or send it to womisar.5294 or LadyHawk.5319 or message us on discord. Special event is not very special for support FB. Retal change making it difficult for people to want to play support FB. Even if you start a WvW raid just note how long the raid is, how many levels and bags you make and how many the DPS make. Then send it to us. We are collecting data. Thank you very much.

[cat.8975]

I wish taking damage from an enemy would "tag" them for kill credit. Would help out the support roles so much for loot.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, cat.8975 said:

I wish taking damage from an enemy would "tag" them for kill credit. Would help out the support roles so much for loot.

It would be extremely abused (similar to the issue of people afking with boon herald in PVE) so no that is not a good idea. We already have diminishing returns on loot/WXP so this idea about loot is rather contrived anyway. It's about as important as running magic find booster in WVW , drops will still be trash typically and the joke has always been "10K WvW rank and you get a green and a blue".

@womisar Last night I already I talked to a guild leader that exclusively plays firebrand in WVW and the drops haven't been much worse this week (if you play support you aren't getting as much but it's not much worse than before), typically scrappers have it even worse while tempests use weapons so they don't have that problem. Granted that is contingent on your squad actually playing WvW as intended and attacking/defending structures plus defeating enemies in said structures and not just server hopping and "GvGing" in the middle of nowhere wasting queue space for people actually trying to play the mode the way it was intended.

If you repeatedly wipe a certain person you won't get anything.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[lodjur.1284]

Guess what. 

 

In the parts of WvW where you actively have to use your skills, you earn exactly the same amount of loot as pre- patch

[LadyHawk.5319]

Another guild leader/commander friend of mine who regularly drives on a FB noticed a huge drop in the bags he is receiving. And other FBs I run with have noticed a large decrease as well.  Perhaps one of the discrepancies in reported FB bag drops is how each FB plays. Pure support vs a Book 1 player. Also, what are you fighting more? Towers and siege vs players all night? Those difference will skew one's experiences.

Edited May 20, 2021 by LadyHawk.5319

[Infusion.7149]

I am extremely confused by this claim of "Book 1 players", because all tomes have pages. Are you not using the pages?
Even on pure support, staff and mace have symbols and cleave.
 

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I am extremely confused by this claim of "Book 1 players", because all tomes have pages. Are you not using the pages?
Even on pure support, staff and mace have symbols and cleave.
 

Well, there are bad support players, just like there are bad non-support players as well. I don't even get the argument because the choice is there to NOT be so support heavy and earn more loot if people want it. 

 

I mean, there was a heal kit engi complaining he never got any bags ... I'm like ... maybe not camp heal kit like a noob then. 

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, there are bad support players, just like there are bad non-support players as well. I don't even get the argument because the choice is there to NOT be so support heavy and earn more loot if people want it. 

 

I mean, there was a heal kit engi complaining he never got any bags ... I'm like ... maybe not camp heal kit like a noob then. 

Except med kit is far more effective , you can't be effective when camping tomes for extended periods because you're supposed to use the pages. That's literally the only time the firebrand won't be able to attack at all assuming melee comp (if ranged "pirateship" comp then you drop reflects).

What are you going to do off med kit besides CC/prot on shield? Auto them for terrible DPS on pistol? Use one condi clear or light field on elixir gun or mortar if you don't use stealth gyro? Mace on guardian does ~ 1K heal every auto chain and has a channeled block that spits out aegis while shield also puts out protection and a projectile block/heal.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Except med kit is far more effective , you can't be effective when camping tomes for extended periods because you're supposed to use the pages. That's literally the only time the firebrand won't be able to attack at all assuming melee comp (if ranged "pirateship" comp then you drop reflects).

What are you going to do off med kit besides CC/prot on shield? Auto them for terrible DPS on pistol? Use one condi clear or light field on elixir gun or mortar if you don't use stealth gyro? Mace on guardian does ~ 1K heal every auto chain and has a channeled block that spits out aegis while shield also puts out protection and a projectile block/heal.

This doesn't change my point ... if people want to camp sustain builds, they get 'sustain' level rewards ... which SHOULD be garbage. If rewards for sustain were similar to rewards for killing and now we can swap builds ... encounters would drag on with everyone collecting bags for 'winning' sustain wars. That's kitten level play. It's a risk/reward consideration in effect here. You want big loots and many bagz, you play like you want them. You don't camp a heal kit and QQ your loot is bad. 

 

I mean, put it this way ... if Anet starts rewarding sustain, then sustain needs a massive nerf to make that reward mean something equivalent to the offensive part. The bottomline is that sustain can't be better than offensive action if it's going to be rewarded at the same level. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

The threshold for damage is substantially lowered if you spit out boons, same as for PVE.

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The threshold for damage is substantially lowered if you spit out boons, same as for PVE.

OK, but I don't see what that has to do with rewarding people who camp healing builds and such. I mean, here is the fundamental problem ... people that tend to sustain builds are going to kill slower to begin with so naturally they will get much less loot. I don't see the problem if someone wants to go so hard into a sustain build that they have no chance to kill someone with it that they get nothing. That's how it should work. Otherwise, your competitive game mode swings the other way with one DPS guy being healed by 10 med kit campers and ignoring the objectives of the game. 

 

If the damage a player can take is so significantly decreased by the boons they have (or conversely, increased by the boons they don't have), then the fix isn't to spit out rewards for just 'sticking around'. I mean, if you like playing a lawyer chasing ambulances, sure, then give out rewards for healing ... but guaranteed you kill any ability to capture something in a reasonable time if you do that. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, but I don't see what that has to do with rewarding people who camp healing builds and such. I mean, here is the fundamental problem ... people that tend to sustain builds are going to kill slower to begin with so naturally they will get much less loot. I don't see the problem if someone wants to go so hard into a sustain build that they have no chance to kill someone with it that they get nothing. That's how it should work. Otherwise, your competitive game mode swings the other way with one DPS guy being healed by 10 med kit campers and ignoring the objectives of the game. 

 

If the damage a player can take is so significantly decreased by the boons they have (or conversely, increased by the boons they don't have), then the fix isn't to spit out rewards for just 'sticking around'. I mean, if you like playing a lawyer chasing ambulances, sure, then give out rewards for healing ... but guaranteed you kill any ability to capture something in a reasonable time if you do that. 

The mechanic is already in the game.
Healing/boon output lowers the threshold of damage you need to do to tag. How is that hard to understand, you don't even need to WvW to know this.

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The mechanic is already in the game.
Healing/boon output lowers the threshold of damage you need to do to tag. How is that hard to understand, you don't even need to WvW to know this.

I didn't say it wasn't in the game. It doesn't change what I'm saying ... the game correctly rewards people for the amount of risk they take doing competitive modes. If you load up on sustain to the point you can't contribute to objectives ... then you should get very little loot ... or nothing even. 

 

I mean, if players who camp healing/boon output get a lower tag to earn loot ... then what's the complaint here? Are people just sensationalizing their low loot experience as a sustain build camper to influence Anet to give them more loot? Again, just sounds like bad play, not game mechanics that's affecting their loot haul. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LadyHawk.5319]

If rewards were changed based on boons players gave to other players, how many DPS players would changed their build, nerf their DPS output, in order to continue to receive those rewards?

[MLinni.6109]

Yeah, but "camping support builds" is what is required of a certain amount of people in a *gasp* team game. It is not like DPS requires some heightened amount of skill other than bombing on a point if the commander so desires. The loot system has always been a mess full of crutches like retaliation to get the supports some "participation" and thus loot as well. 

And Obtena, I am hoping you will have fun and "heightened risk" if nobody gives a kitten about teamplay anymore in your group and the enemies will dance on your corpse while you cry about having no stability or healing. This is exactly the mindset we don't need in a team game.

If a supporter does his/her job efficiently they should be rewarded just as highly. Sadly due to people abusing any system this is not an easy thing to do. My suggestion would be giving participation and tagging to people who healed/booned you in the last few seconds before a target is killed.

[Sonja.3497]

Thanks, MLinni! You sound like LadyHawk and myself. If you grab any data on bags, let us know! LadyHawk and I both play to support our guild groups or server groups. Shockingly, we have fun when our groups take "heightened risks" because we are supporting them through them 😉 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

17 hours ago, MLinni.6109 said:

Yeah, but "camping support builds" is what is required of a certain amount of people in a *gasp* team game.

Well, no, it's not required though. There isn't any requirement from a game mechanics POV that some people play this kind of build. People play this build because they like it. 

 

On 5/20/2021 at 5:32 PM, LadyHawk.5319 said:

If rewards were changed based on boons players gave to other players, how many DPS players would changed their build, nerf their DPS output, in order to continue to receive those rewards?

Perhaps lots ... but lucky for us Anet realizes they need to reward people for completing objectives related to the game mode, not trading boons with each other. That's probably why all the people that run around with good DPS builds capturing keeps and such get the loot and the people pressing 1 on med kits don't. 

 

The fact is this ... you can't have a competitive game that rewards actions to any significant extent that don't directly result in capturing objectives, at least not without making it a derpfest of facerolling healers. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cat.8975]

If players weren't meant to play support builds, then why are entire traitlines, weapon skills, utilities, equipment prefixes, etc. all oriented around supporting?

WvW would be a terrible gamemode without some people running that stuff. Their job isn't any easier or harder to do, it's just different. The disproportionate rewards really suck.

 

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is this ... you can't have a competitive game that rewards actions to any significant extent that don't directly result in capturing objectives, at least not without making it a derpfest of facerolling healers. 

Supporting your allies     D I R E C T L Y    C O N T R I B U T E S     towards capturing objectives. If there aren't any healers, you wont capture a single thing outside of sentries/camps. Why are you having trouble understanding this?

[kanemi.4903]

I have been playing Firebrand all this time (even before double exp) and even at that time i got half of what DPS earn. And yes, I use Book1 to finish the downs.

While the DPS got 60+ bags i got 30+

These days we don't exactly heal (we do but not like a tempest/scrapper), cleanse is something that we don't have to use rn (scrappers/necro job) the only thing we do is keep fury/might/reso/protec/stab/bubble & etc.. (if u want resistance, mallyx got you 100%)

 

I don't know how they would account for support participation while having in mind
that FB's don't even compete with tempest, scrapper at healing/cleansing..

(if that was taken into account)

But would be nice if we got a little love.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

Supporting your allies     D I R E C T L Y    C O N T R I B U T E S     towards capturing objectives. If there aren't any healers, you wont capture a single thing outside of sentries/camps. Why are you having trouble understanding this?

I'm not having trouble understanding anything ...  you aren't opening gates and crashing walls camping support skills and throwing boons. You might like to think supporting allies is a direct contribution to capturing objectives ... that's just you misunderstanding what I'm talking about. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cat.8975]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not having trouble understanding anything ...  you aren't opening gates and crashing walls camping support skills and throwing boons. You might like to think supporting allies is a direct contribution to capturing objectives ... that's just you misunderstanding what I'm talking about. 

1 support player giving 4 dps players offensive boons will do more damage than 5 dps players.
1 healer and 4 dps will do more damage than 5 dead dps.

The optimal strategy in both WvW and PvE is to have at least some form of group support, whether it's through healing, boons, or both. Supports are contributing just as much towards the group success as the damage players, so why aren't they being rewarded the same?

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

1 support player giving 4 dps players offensive boons will do more damage than 5 dps players.
1 healer and 4 dps will do more damage than 5 dead dps.

OK, but that doesn't change what I said though. Heals and support are not a direct contributing actions that lead to capturing objectives, at least not the way the game defines it. If you want loot, you have to recognize a certain approach to playing WvW. 

 

Supports are contributing just as much towards the group success as the damage players, so why aren't they being rewarded the same?

 

because that's not true. Supports are NOT contributing just as much towards capturing objectives as the damage players. You convinced yourself that's true ... but that's not how the game defines success and contribution.  

Edited May 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cat.8975]

Look at it mathematically. If a group with 1 support and 4 damage is capturing more objectives/killing enemies faster than a group with 5 dps, the support is actually bringing more individual value than any of the dps players. There are diminishing returns, of course, but the first support or two in a group is almost always more valuable than any of the damage players on an individual contribution level.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

Look at it mathematically. If a group with 1 support and 4 damage is capturing more objectives/killing enemies faster than a group with 5 dps, the support is actually bringing more individual value than any of the dps players. There are diminishing returns, of course, but the first support or two in a group is almost always more valuable than any of the damage players on an individual contribution level.

What is relevant here is how the game defines what kind of contribution is rewarded. I've already explained why we can't have significant rewards for 'support' and 'heals' in WvW, regardless of whatever contribution those kinds of builds make to the success of WvW for a group. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cat.8975]

On 5/19/2021 at 8:44 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

It would be extremely abused

It was already "abused" via retaliation. Perhaps they could add some invisible 0 damage hits to attackers when you have Resolution (and/or other various boons). At the end of the day, supports that gave retal (primarily guardians) are getting less loot after the patch than they were before, so it should be no surprise that some people are upset about it.