New changes to retal hurting Support FB in WvW

[RisenHowl.2419]

8 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Well hey let's also look on the other side shall we?

Boon ball "blobs" is also "trash content" and forced on the rest of the cloud/pugs/small group/small guild/not in uber "fight" guild community, for YEARS. Fighting boon groups that get stronger with more numbers to the point of untouchable without an equal sized support and strip group to even challenge is boring as can be.

 

Low bags? welcome to the rest of wvw not rolling around in boon blobs taking advantage of pull bombs on the unorganized for YEARS.

 

If you step back for a moment, this all comes down to complaining about the easy low effect gravy train getting slowed in it's tracks, for a moment, because when you all decide to share your bags things won't really change, you'll still run heavy support, still get your bags, still get the comfort and safety of your boon ball and you'll still be farming "low skill pugs" because it's the easiest thing to do.

 

Do some actual damage if you want to tag something for loot.

If you step back for a moment, you'll see that those are problems of your own devising. Group up, learn to tag, organize a comp and run times. It's not hard, but it does require you to play with other people in a multiplayer game mode.

[XenesisII.1540]

20 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

If you step back for a moment, you'll see that those are problems of your own devising. Group up, learn to tag, organize a comp and run times. It's not hard, but it does require you to play with other people in a multiplayer game mode.

 

Hehe, I knew that would be the answer, and to counter, do damage if you want to tag for bags like the rest of us, it's not hard.

[lodjur.1284]

11 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

If pvp is so much less skill intensive and your group is amazing at 5v5 then why dont you go win the MaT and show the pvpers how its done?

First off.

 

sPvP is not actually about combat. It's mostly about rotations. Which while it takes some skill isn't something we find interesting enough to try to master.

 

Secondly

 

Because we don't care, Noone of us enjoy the gameplay in sPvP. None of us enjoy the lack of build diversity or symmetrical fights. None of us has ever enjoyed any meta in sPvP. We got nothing to prove.

 

WvW balance is just leagues above sPvP balance.

[RisenHowl.2419]

24 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

First off.

 

sPvP is not actually about combat. It's mostly about rotations. Which while it takes some skill isn't something we find interesting enough to try to master.

 

Secondly

 

Because we don't care, Noone of us enjoy the gameplay in sPvP. None of us enjoy the lack of build diversity or symmetrical fights. None of us has ever enjoyed any meta in sPvP. We got nothing to prove.

 

WvW balance is just leagues above sPvP balance.

 

'we could play pvp, but then we can't use the cheese available in wvw so we wouldn't win any matches'

 

lemme fix that for you

[lodjur.1284]

10 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

 

'we could play pvp, but then we can't use the cheese available in wvw so we wouldn't win any matches'

 

lemme fix that for you

I don't like symmetric fights in WvW either got an excellent winrate for them, but they're just not interesting.

 

Also we never ran Herald or anything with high mobility (atm the highest mobility player we got is a firebrand...) or any invuln (outside of renewed focus and sometimes earth shield (neither for the invuln)), we don't even run any signet resses or use any stealth sources so not quite sure what cheese that would be referring too.

 

Also I got a top 3 sPvP title, I got enough experience with the gamemode to say that it's garbage. 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

First off.

 

sPvP is not actually about combat.

right. 🤓🙄🥴🤧😖

[Gotejjeken.1267]

48 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

right. 🤓🙄🥴🤧😖

 

I mean, is it though? I've never stepped foot in sPvP but from the leagues and stuff I watched (early on when it was supposed to be a thing like on Twitch) it does seem all about rotating between points to get the most strategic advantage.  No one like goes off and duels 1v1 for the hell of it like in WvW (that would be seemingly very counterproductive lol).  

 

Since sPvP lost nearly all of its audience I would say if it IS about the fights it doesn't have a good way of showing that.  

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

47 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I mean, is it though? I've never stepped foot in sPvP but from the leagues and stuff I watched (early on when it was supposed to be a thing like on Twitch) it does seem all about rotating between points to get the most strategic advantage.  No one like goes off and duels 1v1 for the hell of it like in WvW (that would be seemingly very counterproductive lol).  

 

Since sPvP lost nearly all of its audience I would say if it IS about the fights it doesn't have a good way of showing that.  

There are many types of fights in pvp. There are duels on side nodes, outnumbered fights, teamfights, roamer fights, and then dynamic combinations of these depending on how people rotate about the map. The main difference is there are objectives in spvp more important than killing, which means you cant just run a bunch of supports and teamfighters and do nothing but farm kills. Wvw has lost just as much of an audience as pvp, and its balance is awful as well.

[lodjur.1284]

4 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

right. 🤓🙄🥴🤧😖

If sPvP is about combat for you. You're playing it wrong

 

Obviously being better at combat is helpful but rotations are far more important, a player with mediocre combat skills and excellent rotations is far more helpful than an excellent player with mediocre rotationing. Best is ofc both, but the combat part doesn't matter a whole lot as you're never winning any 5v4s even (unless the enemy team is exrremely weak) due to low skill ceiling of the balance. 

 

Combat skills in sPvP come down to mastering +1ing quickly, knowing weird kiting spots, stuff like that, not so much actual fights. If the fights you have in sPvP are contingent on your fighting skill, once again you're playing it wrong

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

5 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

If sPvP is about combat for you. You're playing it wrong

right. 😶🐳🛕➗🈳

[lodjur.1284]

3 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

right. 😶🐳🛕➗🈳

You can post as many confusing emotions you want, doesn't change the fact. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

You can post as many confusing emotions you want, doesn't change the fact. 

If you think wvw is about fights your are playing it wrong. Wvw is all about ppt. Obviously fights help you take objectives, but combat skill just comes down to stacking supports, abusing power creep, and fighting people far below your groups skill/knowledge level. If the fights you have in wvw are contingent on your fighting skill, once again you're playing it wrong.

 

edit: 🏄‍♂️🦋🧊🗺️🌪️

Edited May 24, 2021 by Paradoxoglanis.1904

[lodjur.1284]

17 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

If you think wvw is about fights your are playing it wrong. Wvw is all about ppt. Obviously fights help you take objectives, but combat skill just comes down to stacking supports, abusing power creep, and fighting people far below your groups skill/knowledge level. If the fights you have in wvw are contingent on your fighting skill, once again you're playing it wrong.

 

edit: 🏄‍♂️🦋🧊🗺️🌪️

I mean if my goal was to win a matchup you're 100% Correct, if I dont care about the matchup and just wanna have fights with a high skill ceiling you're wrong. 

[LadyHawk.5319]

23 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Well hey let's also look on the other side shall we?

Boon ball "blobs" is also "trash content" and forced on the rest of the cloud/pugs/small group/small guild/not in uber "fight" guild community, for YEARS. Fighting boon groups that get stronger with more numbers to the point of untouchable without an equal sized support and strip group to even challenge is boring as can be.

 

Low bags? welcome to the rest of wvw not rolling around in boon blobs taking advantage of pull bombs on the unorganized for YEARS.

 

If you step back for a moment, this all comes down to complaining about the easy low effect gravy train getting slowed in it's tracks, for a moment, because when you all decide to share your bags things won't really change, you'll still run heavy support, still get your bags, still get the comfort and safety of your boon ball and you'll still be farming "low skill pugs" because it's the easiest thing to do.

 

Do some actual damage if you want to tag something for loot.

No, this comes down to Anet taking away support FBs main source of kill reward whilst they support their team; whilst they do their job. This has zero to do while ktrain or any form of WvW that does not fit your personal definition. This post is not about the types of WvW. It is not about roaming vs zerg vs solo vs troll ... oh wait .... What it is about is any person playing support FB (I'm not talking saying you're support but not support - that's like saying you're an underwire bra but actually being wireless). I am talking about being a support FB, playing for hours and getting less WXP than you got before, less bags, less drops, less rewards. You play a game, you get rewards. Those are the rules. Those rules are being ignored.

[LadyHawk.5319]

2 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

If you think wvw is about fights your are playing it wrong. Wvw is all about ppt. Obviously fights help you take objectives, but combat skill just comes down to stacking supports, abusing power creep, and fighting people far below your groups skill/knowledge level. If the fights you have in wvw are contingent on your fighting skill, once again you're playing it wrong.

 

edit: 🏄‍♂️🦋🧊🗺️🌪️

 

I am sorry you have had such experiences in WvW. Yes, at times you fight groups below your skill level, that is down to the means of determining balanced links ... another post. Many of us have nights filled with competitive fights tho. Hopefully, there will come a day when WvW is balanced for everybody all of the time.

[Loading.4503]

I PLAY SOLO AND I GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF BAGS AS BEFORE, BUT IF SOMETHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS WHERE SUPPORT FBS GET MORE BAGS, I WANT MORE BAGS ALSO AUTOMATICALLY JUST CAUSE !!!!! 
 

Edit : if i missed the point of the thread its cause i just skimmed through it, but i still stand by what i said!!!

Edited May 24, 2021 by Loading.4503

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

53 minutes ago, LadyHawk.5319 said:

 

I am sorry you have had such experiences in WvW. Yes, at times you fight groups below your skill level, that is down to the means of determining balanced links ... another post. Many of us have nights filled with competitive fights tho. Hopefully, there will come a day when WvW is balanced for everybody all of the time.

Im just trolling at this point, ive had my fair share of amazing fights in wvw. I just disagree with people who say spvp doesnt also have its great combat moments.

[XenesisII.1540]

2 hours ago, LadyHawk.5319 said:

No, this comes down to Anet taking away support FBs main source of kill reward whilst they support their team; whilst they do their job. This has zero to do while ktrain or any form of WvW that does not fit your personal definition. This post is not about the types of WvW. It is not about roaming vs zerg vs solo vs troll ... oh wait .... What it is about is any person playing support FB (I'm not talking saying you're support but not support - that's like saying you're an underwire bra but actually being wireless). I am talking about being a support FB, playing for hours and getting less WXP than you got before, less bags, less drops, less rewards. You play a game, you get rewards. Those are the rules. Those rules are being ignored.

 

You do damage to something, you get credit for tagging, and rewarded when it's killed. Those are also the rules. The game wasn't built with full supports in mind, hence why you need to actually damage something in order to get credit for it's kill. Guards had a fire and forget catch all net with retaliation that frankly neither tempest or druid or engineer had as much access to and yet I didn't see a call to arms on their behalf.

 

You have choices, do damage and get your tag credits, or continue to push your support buttons without touching the enemy. Is it fair that you are the most wanted meta class, welcomed in every single group, get to suit up in minstrels in tank support mode, safely sitting in your zerg hitting heals and boons, and yet get credit as a dps user who have to run near glass to get these kills for you? I'm sorry but I don't think it's too much to ask for you to at least pop your F1 virtue to get some tags in order to get your loot. I don't think it's too much to ask for you to shift your stats to do more damage for tags if that's what's important to you.

 

If the group kills something have the group share the loot. You all already group up, organize, communicate to kill enemies, so what's so hard about doing that for sharing loot at the end of the run?

[God.2708]

33 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

The game wasn't built with full supports in mind

 

 

Whilst this is true, Anet did then walk back on it and implement full supports. And, they have made attempts to rectify the situation to give supports credit, so I'm not sure your 'This is the way were made' really holds water.

 

 

33 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

If the group kills something have the group share the loot. You all already group up, organize, communicate to kill enemies, so what's so hard about doing that for sharing loot at the end of the run?

This is, ironically, where Anet's implementation of instanced loot doesn't work. Because the issue per se isn't that supports aren't getting bags, but rather that because supports aren't getting bags the group as a whole is getting less loot period. It's not like you push into a zerg and 60 bags get handed out. No, it's everyone who tags each player has a chance for a bag so a class not being able to tag is inadvertently screwing the group as a whole out. Positive implementations of this can be seen when large groups try to 'tag' yaks so everyone gets credit to maximize potential supply gain (or achievements). But in this case it's a negative because the support player is left with a lose-lose decision. They make themselves worse at their job and hurt the group as a whole, or they play in a way to maximize (total) loot and hurt the group. That reinforces selfishness and as a game loop should be re-thought in a team game.

Edited May 24, 2021 by God.2708

[LetoII.3782]

Played Guardian since headstart in gw2, Paladin archetypes since forever.

Retaliation as a concept has always grossed me out. I've long wished that part of our power went to doing more with aegis or protection... Or an entirely new support ability like barrier.

 

Still don't know how that ended up in Scourge's pocket. <,<

[LadyHawk.5319]

5 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

You do damage to something, you get credit for tagging, and rewarded when it's killed. Those are also the rules. The game wasn't built with full supports in mind, hence why you need to actually damage something in order to get credit for it's kill. Guards had a fire and forget catch all net with retaliation that frankly neither tempest or druid or engineer had as much access to and yet I didn't see a call to arms on their behalf.

 

You have choices, do damage and get your tag credits, or continue to push your support buttons without touching the enemy. Is it fair that you are the most wanted meta class, welcomed in every single group, get to suit up in minstrels in tank support mode, safely sitting in your zerg hitting heals and boons, and yet get credit as a dps user who have to run near glass to get these kills for you? I'm sorry but I don't think it's too much to ask for you to at least pop your F1 virtue to get some tags in order to get your loot. I don't think it's too much to ask for you to shift your stats to do more damage for tags if that's what's important to you.

 

If the group kills something have the group share the loot. You all already group up, organize, communicate to kill enemies, so what's so hard about doing that for sharing loot at the end of the run?

Tempests do not need a call to arms. With auras on everyone, they get credit for ppl their teammates kill while having the aura. When I play healpest or stunpest, I get almost as many bags a DPS. Engis - I will give you they have been hurt some, but not as much. Engis have access to many damaging skills in their normal heal rotation. But this post is about gathering the support FB numbers. Why? Because it has dropped so low. Hopefully, in the end, if a resolution is achieved it will help all support. 

No one is asking dps to run near glass. Besides. Who the hell do you think helps keep you alive so you can  make the kills? I can tag mobs with auto attacks but dont get credit. That is doing damage. People keep saying do damage. Support FBs do via auto-attacks and various staff, mace and shield  attacks. It is not enough to get credit. Also, why should we have to change gear? I pose the question I did earlier (maybe it wasnt here): If DPS were required to give boons in order to get kill credit, would they alter their gear and build in order to do so, knowing that that would lower their DPS performance?

Edited May 25, 2021 by LadyHawk.5319

[nthmetal.9652]

  

On 5/21/2021 at 9:46 PM, Zikory.6871 said:

Almost all retal came from Firebrands and its comes from almost all of their stab skills. If you had low retal uptime, your support is being lazy or you didn't have a Firebrand. 

If you are getting less bags then a Firebrand on support warrior, then its more likely a you issue.

Ah, that's the forum how I know it. Knowing nothing about a player's playstyle, go right to the "you must suck" explanation.  But I am not totally innocent in this matter. I should have established some additional boundaries. What I wrote about getting too few bags is not true, if you can melee-train-one-push (or -two-push) your enemies. It becomes mainly an issue, if you face actually capable enemies, when this is not the case.

I also forgot to establish, that this is not a "me"-issue in the first place, because I discussed with other spellbreakers on my server, and look and behold, while the actual bag amount might vary slightly, the issue remains. And it is never anywhere near the regions what other professions get.

 

Thankfully some people think further than that:

On 5/21/2021 at 11:10 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well support warrior is unfortunately considered the most expendable of the bunch as played. They have to go into the most dangerous zones on their own to place bubbles, and this also means they'll always be near an enemy bubble and boons will suck not to mention every necro will be spamming axe 3 and whatever in your face.

That is much more likely the explanation. Always frontline, without equivalent protection or rewards. This explanation makes a lot of sense to me. You will get all the ranged and AoE powers and on top of that all the melee spammed at your face. With next to no blocks and reflects to get through that and highly nerfed damage if you play hammer. ANd if the enemy group is actually any good, only a fraction of your CCs will actually get through, thanks to the amount of blind, weakness, blocks, aegis you will have to get through at the same time. It's really a stellar design at the moment.

Now sure, you can try taking the Arms traitline and the signet of might to mitigate that at least somewhat, however, apart from that one trait, it's pretty much useless in your frontline support role.

[nthmetal.9652]

uncessary duplicate, please delete

Edited May 25, 2021 by nthmetal.9652
uncessary duplicate, please delete

[nthmetal.9652]

uncessary duplicate, please delete

Edited May 25, 2021 by nthmetal.9652
uncessary duplicate, please delete

[Leaa.2943]

On 5/22/2021 at 1:00 AM, womisar.5294 said:

So Leaa - this isn't Firebrand crying by any means.  I actually play all supports - it's what I prefer to play. I don't actually count bags and levels per se in any of those forms for the reason why you state there. I am not against any class - I think it would be fantastic to focus on the entire support genre for exactly what Risen points out, but the patch that just happened made a clear and obvious change to Firebrand, hence why we are collecting data.  It's pretty normal, and always has been, for DPS to outshine support. You want to bring up support ele. I am with you. I also love my support ele. And my support scrapper. See a trend? Just so happens that a friend of mine and I who both play Firebrand decided to try to dig into this particular scenario and ask anyone else who plays it to look for this. Why? Because no matter what people always ask for Firebrands  - it's a commonly played class, a meta class so commanders alaways want them and an obvious choice to find and collect data. 

My problem is not a problem but something that have been talked about for soon to be 9 years in which i played support ele in WvW and raids and GvG and anything else and then later on Support Tempest. During all this years we have raised the question why do other support not get loot through hps as you do in other games.

 

After about 6 years i think it was or was it 5?  I can't remember now they sort of added something where you first had to damage and then if you heal you get participatiion. And if you actually do play support in the way you said and the way i always done which is first my group then loot, which means i am not gonna swap to damage spells to get loot when my party need me. So having to think about doing the damage at the same time as i have to playing the UI and do the support i am there to do then my loot is secondary. We asked for better changes and nothing happen after that. But now the Firebrand suddenly reaslise that kitten this it terrible loot, and instead of supporting the other support during all this years to make the changes back then when they still had their loot stick, they now rage over how bad it is. 

 

So i wanted to poke them in the eye abpit ot, because it was always that bad but Guardian are the babies of Arena Net so what they want they will get i have no doubt.. But i would not be too suprised if the fix is for Guardians and can not be for any other support class because that is how it always was. So me reminding about it is not really that bad from that perspective, right?