New changes to retal hurting Support FB in WvW

[nthmetal.9652]

Sorry for the multipost, maybe a mod could clean that mess up? The forum does not give adequate feedback, if you post replies from a different page than the last page 😞

[ArchonWing.9480]

45 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

Ah, that's the forum how I know it. Knowing nothing about a player's playstyle, go right to the "you must suck" explanation.

As someone that usually seems to post a lot of git gud posts, I will say that I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, and usually consider circumstances outside their control and then circumstances that are easily controlled so I can make fun of them for turning down really easy solutions for the sake of being right.

 

In this case here though, it can vary heavily because of your group, as if they like to pirate ship, you as a melee will simply get less bags. It's just how that works. Support Warrior physically has the smallest range because you can't bring a bow or a rifle. I suppose you could tell the whole group to git gud, however that isn't very practical.

 

I mean ofc you can just hang out in the back and then tag enemies once you make contact, but then again you can also have firebrands just camping staff and not even switching to the other set/tomes. Point is actively trying to do your job as support runs contrary to this goal.

 

Which is why this whole tagging system is and has been depreciated and is an old relic of core tyria and sadly WvW.

 

I mean most of the bags you get from killing uplevels are actually more valuable than heavy loot bags due to midlevel materials being more expensive. Once one realizes that, they can see that we're really just wasting time fixating on it.

 

Of course I don't really understand why this thread keeps going on. Anet is not going to institute some extra arbitrary  formula to a system they've depreciated which nobody can even agree on here, when they could just bump reward and skirmish track rewards. That solution would require much less effort and affect much more people. But that's always confused me about these parts; it's just as bad as the "don't reward zerging" comments that are just out of touch with reality.

 

btw you should also blank out as much as possible the extra posts.

 

Edit: Side note, I'm the only one that seems to have posted any verifiable data in this thread.... Some people should get on it.

Edited May 25, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Zikory.6871]

2 hours ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

  

Ah, that's the forum how I know it. Knowing nothing about a player's playstyle, go right to the "you must suck" explanation.  But I am not totally innocent in this matter. I should have established some additional boundaries. What I wrote about getting too few bags is not true, if you can melee-train-one-push (or -two-push) your enemies. It becomes mainly an issue, if you face actually capable enemies, when this is not the case.

The defensive response makes it seem like I'm on to something. But no, I was just commenting on:
 

Quote

That is untrue. I was on a support warrior, and unless you were running the defense traitline, you probably had little to no access to retal. Every now and then you might get it from your teammates, but that was far from reliable. 

Any fairly competent Firebrand can maintain 50% uptime on Retal by just pressing stab buttons when they are supposed to. I'm not sure what was more reliable then Stand your Ground. In comped group content, with a Firebrand in every party, self retal doesn't matter as your firebrand should be giving it to you. 

So if its "far from reliable" that's a player or understanding issue. 

[Sonja.3497]

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

During all this years we have raised the question why do other support not get loot through hps as you do in other games.

 

I couldn't ask for anything more than this ^. Spot on. 

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

After about 6 years i think it was or was it 5?  I can't remember now they sort of added something where you first had to damage and then if you heal you get participatiion. And if you actually do play support in the way you said and the way i always done which is first my group then loot, which means i am not gonna swap to damage spells to get loot when my party need me. So having to think about doing the damage at the same time as i have to playing the UI and do the support i am there to do then my loot is secondary. We asked for better changes and nothing happen after that.

I am completely 100 with you. I'm not going to think about damage to get xp or loot. Not going to happen.  I think you are right with me. 

 

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

But now the Firebrand suddenly reaslise that kitten this it terrible loot, and instead of supporting the other support during all this years to make the changes back then when they still had their loot stick, they now rage over how bad it is. 

 

So i wanted to poke them in the eye abpit ot, because it was always that bad but Guardian are the babies of Arena Net so what they want they will get i have no doubt.. But i would not be too suprised if the fix is for Guardians and can not be for any other support class because that is how it always was. So me reminding about it is not really that bad from that perspective, right?

Nope your point is right on point. And if Guardian really are the babies of Anet like a lot of people think that perhaps, just perhaps, this change will make them think about support in general instead of Firebrand in particular. xo 

[Sonja.3497]

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I mean ofc you can just hang out in the back and then tag enemies once you make contact, but then again you can also have firebrands just camping staff and not even switching to the other set/tomes. Point is actively trying to do your job as support runs contrary to this goal.

 

 Anet is not going to institute some extra arbitrary  formula to a system they've depreciated which nobody can even agree on here, when they could just bump reward and skirmish track rewards. That solution would require much less effort and affect much more people. But that's always confused me about these parts; it's just as bad as the "don't reward zerging" comments that are just out of touch with reality.

 

btw you should also blank out as much as possible the extra posts.

 

Edit: Side note, I'm the only one that seems to have posted any verifiable data in this thread.... Some people should get on it.

 

Archon, thank you for the data. Most folks have kind of missed the point to track the changes - I appreciate your contribution.  The people who actually run support to support, and not to find ways to tag and increase bags/xp, also see you. Thank you.

 

[nthmetal.9652]

12 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Any fairly competent Firebrand can maintain 50% uptime on Retal by just pressing stab buttons when they are supposed to. I'm not sure what was more reliable then Stand your Ground. In comped group content, with a Firebrand in every party, self retal doesn't matter as your firebrand should be giving it to you. 

So if its "far from reliable" that's a player or understanding issue. 

Or it's just a design issue, as was pointed out later. Because generally I would have to agree. Of course you should have ample retal, and thus should get more or less the same amount of rewards for your involvement, as a firebrand. And yet that was not the case. And as we see, there are reasons for that, and they lie in exactly the role of the warrior.

 

And sure, the bags are not like BIG GOLD, or important by themselves. This unfair treatment of different professions and builds however is yet another little brick in the wall to actual build and profession diversity in WvW. There are reasons you hardly see some kind of builds, and hardly see some some specs in WvW at all.

 

[Kontrolle.3514]

On 5/21/2021 at 4:16 AM, RisenHowl.2419 said:

retal was the main mechanic by which ALL supports got their loot, so this is a bigger issue than it's given credit for. Squads can't function without supports, but there's no longer a reason to play support classes in large scale fights from any individual player's perspective. Especially when you can literally just run dps elementalists for your entire map queue and win every fight by pulling to a choke or hiding in a structure.

 

bags are w/e but wxp, precursor drops, ascended gear drops, etc are all still valued by those players.

Why should support guards get more loot then support engies?

[LadyHawk.5319]

6 hours ago, Kontrolle.3514 said:

Why should support guards get more loot then support engies?

As a support player, i.e., I play support FB, Mediscrapper, Heal Tempest, Support Warrior, even Tablet Rev when that was sorta viable, I can tell you that FB does not nor did not receive more bags than engis. If that was yours/someone's personal experience, than there was something else effecting the bags received. 

[Sylosi.6503]

There should be a fair system, so support players should indeed get the same bags and WXP as DPS.

 

And on the same basis of fairness, if I kill a guy 1v1 worth a 100 WXP, I should get 100 WXP and 1 bag. And if I am in a 50 man zerg and we 50 v 1 the same guy, then I should get 2 WXP and a 1 in 50 chance of getting that bag.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Sylosi.6503

[Usagi.4835]

So boonball blobs can roll around dealing huge amounts of passive damage for no effort to players who have to build glass to make a dent? I'm glad retaliation is gone. People don't complain about passive or bad gameplay mechanics if it's something that they benefit from. Remember when groups had to coordinate their fields and blast finishers? 🤔

Edited May 27, 2021 by Usagi.4835

[Zikory.6871]

10 minutes ago, Usagi.4835 said:

So boonball blobs can roll around dealing huge amounts of passive damage for no effort to players who have to build glass to make a dent? 

This mentality is actually why comped groups are so strong. Imagine calling something a BOON ball and thinking throwing more damage at is going to work. 

[XenesisII.1540]

I mean you should throw more strips at a boon ball, but guess what's been nerfed to the ground the past 4 years between the two sides. Yet the boon ballers have the audacity to come here and complain their grab all tagging boon is now gone, you'll have to excuse some of us for not having any sympathy over this change.

 

Also like rubbing it in pugs faces, if you want to beat the boon ball do the same and group up, organize, communicate, yeah well do the same in sharing your loot now.

[Lightning Xv.8705]

so........this system wasn't implemented in wvw? Might be all you need.(with possible percentage tweaks)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-January-26-2016

Quote

General

• Supporting your allies will now contribute toward earning rewards for killing enemies and damaging event bosses. The actions listed below now cause a percentage of the target ally’s damage dealt for the next several seconds to also count toward your participation. In addition to that, damaging an enemy’s defiance bar will also grant you some participation toward receiving rewards from that enemy. In order to discourage AFKing with boon-applying auras, you must still be actively attacking targets to receive rewards from them.
  • Applying boons to an ally (small percentage).
  • Removing conditions from an ally (small percentage).
  • Reviving an ally (large percentage).
  • Healing an ally (percentage scales based on how much healing is given)

 

retaliation being gone is a breath of fresh air......getting support their 300 silk and mithril from tagging credit shouldn't be that big of an issue. If a support player NEEDS money for w/e reason I'm sure their guild has plenty of people that don't give a rats kitten about those bags and will give them some. Though you could do 1-2 hrs of pve metas and make more gold than you probably could playing wvw for a week. Not getting wvw xp especially for newer players is more of an actual problem.

[Usagi.4835]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

This mentality is actually why comped groups are so strong. Imagine calling something a BOON ball and thinking throwing more damage at is going to work. 

I play staff ele mostly, in which case throwing damage at groups is your main/only function. I am aware of how the meta works. But before the patch, retaliation was disproportionately punishing to certain classes and builds which depended on landing multiple packets of damage. Even if you specced full Marauder's, you would still get chunked by retaliation, possibly sometimes taking more damage than you were able to put out against groups running Minstrel's and who also benefit from barriers soaking up a lot of damage.

There was nothing intuitive or deliberate about applying and maintaining retaliation for one's party either.

[Zikory.6871]

30 minutes ago, Usagi.4835 said:

I play staff ele mostly, in which case throwing damage at groups is your main/only function. I am aware of how the meta works. But before the patch, retaliation was disproportionately punishing to certain classes and builds which depended on landing multiple packets of damage. Even if you specced full Marauder's, you would still get chunked by retaliation, possibly sometimes taking more damage than you were able to put out against groups running Minstrel's and who also benefit from barriers soaking up a lot of damage.

There was nothing intuitive or deliberate about applying and maintaining retaliation for one's party either.

I'm not sure what your arguing. Deleting retal was a buff for comped groups. I'm glad all classes can free cast on a large group without killing themselves, makes it easier to support.

[Hackuuna.4085]

ANet could easily change loot credit to a system where loot is granted without actually having to tag something, but they obviously choose not to. I'm personally happy that retaliation is gone because it's far easier now to be aggressive towards comped groups.

[ArchonWing.9480]

23 hours ago, womisar.5294 said:

 

Archon, thank you for the data. Most folks have kind of missed the point to track the changes - I appreciate your contribution.  The people who actually run support to support, and not to find ways to tag and increase bags/xp, also see you. Thank you.

 

 

Yea, I really don't think anecdotes will help anyone, alone. So I would just like to see how other people may have different results.

 

gw2mists is a very good resource.

[Jski.6180]

A bit of an random though and i am not sure if not one suggested this but why not run an aura shier tempest in group with the FB in wvw. Fire auras i guess "tag" and tempest can keep them going most of the time.

[Jables.4659]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:04 AM, RisenHowl.2419 said:

idk man, how long do you think you'll last as a roamer once the zerglings all start running roaming builds if they can't zerg anymore? Going off your posts the best you can do is pick off respawns that aren't running roaming builds as is

I would absolutely love that.  WvW could definitely use more roamers. 

[fatihso.7258]

I've made and played a heal scrapper (gw2mists) throughout the previous week and wow it's even worse than a fb without retal in terms of wxp and tagging. I will keep playing it but I feel scammed when I devote my resources and playtime for extra roles and betterness of my zerg while dps roles do play their mains and earn more than me for the same duration.

[Zikory.6871]

36 minutes ago, fatihso.7258 said:

I've made and played a heal scrapper (gw2mists) throughout the previous week and wow it's even worse than a fb without retal in terms of wxp and tagging. I will keep playing it but I feel scammed when I devote my resources and playtime for extra roles and betterness of my zerg while dps roles do play their mains and earn more than me for the same duration.

Use fumigate on pushes so you hit both your team and the enemy. Drop Chemical Field (purge gyro tool skill) on downs. Use Hammer 2 4 5, egun 4 (stow weapons to cancel to limit the leap) on CD. Actively use Thunderclap with your squads bomb so you tag. 

Its not great but its better then FB.

[XenesisII.1540]

It's like support players don't want to hit their dps skills. Y'all competing to see who can be top cleansers every fight or something?

[urd.8306]

Change the meta to FB that deal damage and put up stab?

[Infusion.7149]

3 hours ago, diomache.9246 said:

Change the meta to FB that deal damage and put up stab?

There's nothing stopping people from running plaguedoctor's or celestial gear really ; you get ~80% of the healing of minstrel on celestial and all the boon duration.

[jemdarr.2158]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:59 AM, nthmetal.9652 said:

And sure, the bags are not like BIG GOLD, or important by themselves. This unfair treatment of different professions and builds however is yet another little brick in the wall to actual build and profession diversity in WvW. There are reasons you hardly see some kind of builds, and hardly see some some specs in WvW at all.

 

 

Talking about "unfair treatment of different professions" is funny from a guardian point of view. Guardian works in all game modes, and even in zerg with 2 elite specs. What about Ranger, Elementalist, Thief?

 

I understand your point, but first of all Retaliation was way too strong and second a passive applied spell bound to heals and other things. This is terrible game design and it's good that it's gone.

Next step should be to change the meta in FB having to do more than now. May be using your damage tome and not switching between the other two.