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New changes to retal hurting Support FB in WvW


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34 minutes ago, jemdarr.2158 said:

 

I understand your point, but first of all Retaliation was way too strong and second a passive applied spell bound to heals and other things. This is terrible game design and it's good that it's gone.

Next step should be to change the meta in FB having to do more than now. May be using your damage tome and not switching between the other two.

FBs are not arguing for the return of Retaliation.  I wish everyone in this thread would stop focusing on that.

 

FBs are arguing for a fair wxp/loot bag rewarding system for the same amount of time that they invest in to play as their teammates do.

 

If support FBs ran in to clashes with their spicy Tome 1 firebooks, their teammates would be demanding the return of a competent FB who can keep them flush with Stability, Aegis, Regen, etc. 

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Sounds good to me. Less support means better fights.

This is great, less support is always great. I hope Anet don't fix this so people actually have to use some part of their brain to play this game.

the bigger issue is that without retal there's no cost involved in running pure glass ranged classes. it doesn't matter how good your group's sustain is, you're not going to tank 60 meteor showers and

I know y'all like to play this game with as few braincells as possible, but support classes and this bunker boon ball pirate ship meta is the kitten that is killing WvW. (among other things) And this isn't to say I don't feel bad for support players not getting loot. I do, but this meta is just awful and if retal getting removed means the meta is going change or we have less ministrel retal bots per zerg then I'm all for it.

 

Not to be the "baaaaaaaack in my day" guy of the thread but back during pre HoT you didn't have dedicated support players, it wasn't a feasible idea then. The closest thing you had to dedicated support players was shout heal warriors (and even then they still had power stats to do damage) along with staff guardians for stab/empower if you wanted to heal your group you had to actually use 1-2 braincells and get an ele or a ranger to drop a waterfield and blast it. Who else here remembers firefield blasting, waterfield blasting? In extremely high level zerging groups would have to coordinate the stack and blast in the middle of a fight to heal their party. Or rebuff the party with full might, and doing so successfully could completely change the flow of a fight.

 

And before anyone goes "but how am i suppose to survive vs arrow carts now and flip T3 keeps" gee its almost like to take these objectives it's going be actually difficult again. If a boon ball zerg rolls up on your T3 keep there's pretty much nothing the defenders can do other than call their boon ball zerg to defend. 

 

This meta sucks, it's been evolving a bit to be slightly more interesting (as an engineer enthusiast I'm so glad it finally became useful for WvW) there is nothing less fun than running into a zerg that is running full ministrels boon ball and their attacks with 25 stacks of might tickle me and you can't kill them because you're just a pug zerg and they can't kill you because they don't do damage and you outnumber them. 

 

Remove downstate from WvW permanently next please anet. I'm going bookmark this thread, and if that ever happens I bet you the same people complaining about retal will be the same people complaining about downstate getting removed.

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On 5/22/2021 at 1:47 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

You're big on projection aren't you?  I suppose I'll throw out a few projections of my own.

 

1) The fact that you think players in PvP are far more skilled than roamers in WvW tells me you probably tried roaming for a week or so in WvW, got repeatedly destroyed and went back to PvP with your tail tucked between your legs, where maybe 10% of the players are actually skilled, 40% of the players look like they just got the game last week and don't have the slightest clue as to what's going on, with the other 50% being bots.

 

oh boy lol, as a main pvper, i'd say with the time i spent roaming in wvw for conflux, 95% of the roamers in wvw has no idea, i beat literally all of them without food and runes. i could count my death with my hand fingers in fair fight with the time to get conflux.

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23 minutes ago, Spirit Ritulist.9315 said:

I know y'all like to play this game with as few braincells as possible, but support classes and this bunker boon ball pirate ship meta is the kitten that is killing WvW. (among other things) And this isn't to say I don't feel bad for support players not getting loot. I do, but this meta is just awful and if retal getting removed means the meta is going change or we have less ministrel retal bots per zerg then I'm all for it.

 

Not to be the "baaaaaaaack in my day" guy of the thread but back during pre HoT you didn't have dedicated support players, it wasn't a feasible idea then. The closest thing you had to dedicated support players was shout heal warriors (and even then they still had power stats to do damage) along with staff guardians for stab/empower if you wanted to heal your group you had to actually use 1-2 braincells and get an ele or a ranger to drop a waterfield and blast it. Who else here remembers firefield blasting, waterfield blasting? In extremely high level zerging groups would have to coordinate the stack and blast in the middle of a fight to heal their party. Or rebuff the party with full might, and doing so successfully could completely change the flow of a fight.


Lmao in HoT groups ran boon share mesmers that were so oppressive PoF focused boon hate. It was the exact same as what people call boon balls now...instead of having a FB/Scrapper you stack Guard/Chrono. Its like people forgot about distortion, you know the non-strippable effect that could make a group of chronos invulnerable...

Yes combo fields are less important now but groups that don't understand it/do it, are at a disadvantage to those they do. Maybe nerf combo fields because the make bOoN BaLlS stronger...Really though, if groups aren't actually using the tools given to them, why are we mad at groups that do? 

Its pretty hilarious to think that groups that comp up and work together are what's "killing WvW". No way it has anything to do with the hundreds players that refuse to work with each other and would rather just ask daddy anet to nerf the groups you cant fight. groups that have worked together to build a cohesive squad (even before squads were a thing) were stronger then groups or players that didn't. This has been a thing since release...Arguably the game mode was healthiest when guild groups were much more prevalent and competitive... 

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8 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:


Lmao in HoT groups ran boon share mesmers that were so oppressive PoF focused boon hate. It was the exact same as what people call boon balls now...instead of having a FB/Scrapper you stack Guard/Chrono. Its like people forgot about distortion, you know the non-strippable effect that could make a group of chronos invulnerable...

Yes combo fields are less important now but groups that don't understand it/do it, are at a disadvantage to those they do. Maybe nerf combo fields because the make bOoN BaLlS stronger...Really though, if groups aren't actually using the tools given to them, why are we mad at groups that do? 

Its pretty hilarious to think that groups that comp up and work together are what's "killing WvW". No way it has anything to do with the hundreds players that refuse to work with each other and would rather just ask daddy anet to nerf the groups you cant fight. groups that have worked together to build a cohesive squad (even before squads were a thing) were stronger then groups or players that didn't. This has been a thing since release...Arguably the game mode was healthiest when guild groups were much more prevalent and competitive... 

Its why I said back during "pre HoT"  I didn't forget boonmancer though I'd arguably say that meta was less irritating than this one because at least it didn't have firebrand and scourge. 

 

Group comps isn't whats killing WvW. Whats killing WvW is how this game's PvP is designed which has been a problem since release and has never truly been addressed. Bunker metas aren't fun. They aren't fun in PvP, they're not fun in WvW.

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4 minutes ago, Spirit Ritulist.9315 said:

Its why I said back during "pre HoT"  I didn't forget boonmancer though I'd arguably say that meta was less irritating than this one because at least it didn't have firebrand and scourge. 

 

Group comps isn't whats killing WvW. Whats killing WvW is how this game's PvP is designed which has been a problem since release and has never truly been addressed. Bunker metas aren't fun. They aren't fun in PvP, they're not fun in WvW.

The main difference between boon chronomancer (I've played it then) and current meta is superspeed on every gyro (so each gyro does 3 different things now with the quickness added) and stealth gyro.

Veil isn't as oppressive because it has a huge tell. Stealth gyro before it was changed also had a tell.

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1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The main difference between boon chronomancer (I've played it then) and current meta is superspeed on every gyro (so each gyro does 3 different things now with the quickness added) and stealth gyro.

Veil isn't as oppressive because it has a huge tell. Stealth gyro before it was changed also had a tell.

Yeah I can agree to that, boonmancer was the only year mesmer was ever useful beyond being a veil bot or port monkey. I suppose also res bot but think I've made how I feel about downstate clear lol.

 

 

This meta has a whole host of problems and balance issues in general but I do think the bunker builds, and ridiculous support builds are some of the primary. 

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You'll get no argument from me defending FB, Scrapper, Scourge, Spellbreaker, Herald. I'd put money on them still being the go to classes when EoD launches, unless EoD bring more oppressive elite specs or they actually rework old elites. I don't think this is a good meta either but its what we have till at least EoD. So people can keep complaining or try to the best they can with what they have. 

Just silly to think groups will destack just because people don't like the current meta. I want to maximize my squads play time, I don't want them to die and have to run back. 25-30 of us can push 50+ out of our keeps but they can't push us out of their keep and were the issue...

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5 minutes ago, Spirit Ritulist.9315 said:

Yeah I can agree to that, boonmancer was the only year mesmer was ever useful beyond being a veil bot or port monkey. I suppose also res bot but think I've made how I feel about downstate clear lol.

 

 

This meta has a whole host of problems and balance issues in general but I do think the bunker builds, and ridiculous support builds are some of the primary. 

It's not the most fun Chrono build but Chrono currently is one of the strongest boon strip/CC/utility classes you can bring. Chrono has a solid place in the current meta outside of veils, ports, pulls. Another example of people not understanding the meta. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

It's not the most fun Chrono build but Chrono currently is one of the strongest boon strip/CC/utility classes you can bring. Chrono has a solid place in the current meta outside of veils, ports, pulls. Another example of people not understanding the meta. 

Disagree there, I view chrono same way I view staff dare. Great for small scale fights (15v15~) not so great for large scale fights. Better off just having more scourges unless you really need more than 1-2 veil/ports. 

 

I will concede the CC though, its excellent for catching groups unprepared.

Edited by Spirit Ritulist.9315
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Spirit Ritulist.9315 said:

Disagree there, I view chrono same way I view staff dare. Great for small scale fights (15v15~) not so great for large scale fights. Better off just having more scourges unless you really need more than 1-2 veil/ports. 

 

I will concede the CC though, its excellent for catching groups unprepared.

Then I'd say you haven't seen a strong chrono player. They can out strip Scourge and Spellbreaker. You don't stack them like you would Scourge or Spellbreaker but ignoring Chrono as a meta class for stripping boons might be one of the reasons why people think comped groups are so strong. 
 

Edited by Zikory.6871
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On 6/5/2021 at 3:28 PM, jemdarr.2158 said:

Talking about "unfair treatment of different professions" is funny from a guardian point of view. Guardian works in all game modes, and even in zerg with 2 elite specs. What about Ranger, Elementalist, Thief?

I am actually arguing from a warrior point of view, where the situation is already far from ideal, though we are still in a state, where I'd say the game is playable in all game modes. It's just not ideal. Ideal is probably when you play a firebrand, maybe with a bit of damage, but still focusing on your support - and yes in WvW that works mostly very fine - or a scourge.

 

Personally, I think the retaliation change is perfectly fine, yet we badly, badly  need to find some other way to compensate for the fact that range caster can cast without being endangered by melee attacks. Retaliation was a bad solution in the past as anyone who tried to use whirling axe can attest to.

Reflects and blocks likewise don't really work well here; reflects because they don't affect AoEs, blocks once more because they don't really punish the attacker, and for the most part they don't discriminate between range or melee.

 

So at the moment, also thanks to the lack of retaliation (which, I repeat, was NOT the solution to the problem), ranged AoE attacks are the best way to deal with mass group content without endangering yourself, and thus pose a kind of ideal solution. And there should not be an "ideal solution" for WvW / mass group content.

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Posted (edited)

I'm confused by those saying Core didn't have a boon meta, this is completely false.

 

Maybe time has weakened your memory, but boons were definitely a major problem in Core especially since back then even though we had less support, DPS builds were also way weaker (except the usual oneshots that always existed), since sets like Marauder's didn't exist and you had to sacrifice all defense to do damage.

 

Condi builds didn't exist outside of roaming due to non-stacking conditions, and your only Power options were either Berserker's or Assassin's, or if you gave up some damage some kind of mix with Valkyrie/Knight's, and later Zealot's.

 

Giver's and Nomad's also existed long before Minstrel's, so it wasn't a "new" problem, either. They're even stronger than Minstrel's in certain situations.

 

On top of that, boons lasted alot longer, it was far easier to get boon duration to 100% before all the nerfs, many boons stacked for longer, and the only available boonstrips were a very select few skills on a few select classes to the point of rarely seeing play.

 

It was perfectly normal back then for players to bring permanent boons to a fight, even powerful boons like Protection by themselves, (especially Guardian). And I don't mean reapplied after stripping, I mean permanent and untouchable boons.

 

Boon punishment was heavily requested long before even HoT added boonshare Chrono. You can see devs talking about boon hate as far back as 2013, long before the expansion.

 

On top of this, the notion that true support didn't exist back then is also false. 

 

True supports didn't exist in PvE, but in competitive game modes healers like Guardian and Elementalist were arguably just as strong as they are now, because heals were nerfed alot over time as they were shared with more classes. And instant revive skils were far stronger than now, even able to revive Lords. (And lets not forget that you could rally on NPCs, too.)


Its important not to look at the past with rose tinted glasses, it wasn't better or worse back then it was just different, and this is probably the cleanest meta we've ever had.

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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Core had boons, but it obviously was setup differently. Blasting fields for might and heals? WAT IZ DAT?!

Boons may have lasted longer(without concentration in the game? hmm I don't remember much of that back then) but they also had a lot less reapplications, sure as heck didn't have people pushing one button and getting 12 boons on multiple people.

And boon strips weren't rare, that's why necros were meta from the beginning for well of corruption, corrupt boon, lich form, in the game since the beginning.

Boon sharing went over the top during HoT and chronos, which they did some work and the back and forth of boon balling and corruption was in a decent place, until PoF took it back to another level of stupidity and ended up boon corruptions getting the end of nerf stick most of the time, go ahead and look at the necro shades changelog.

Now let's add in superspeed stupidity to get out of all the aoes, especially the corruption ones. Clock ticking on anet once again making winds of disenchantment a channel and moveable to counter this. 🙄

 

Cleanest meta, pffft you mean safest meta, enjoy your safe boon balling.

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On 6/5/2021 at 11:29 AM, Spirit Ritulist.9315 said:

 

 

Remove downstate from WvW permanently next please anet. I'm going bookmark this thread, and if that ever happens I bet you the same people complaining about retal will be the same people complaining about downstate getting removed.

As a support player, every night is 'no downstate' for me. I've got so low damage, I haven't got a chance in hell of rallying. :classic_laugh: :classic_biggrin:

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On 6/5/2021 at 10:06 AM, Zhaeli.5416 said:

FBs are not arguing for the return of Retaliation.  I wish everyone in this thread would stop focusing on that.

 

FBs are arguing for a fair wxp/loot bag rewarding system for the same amount of time that they invest in to play as their teammates do.

 

 Thanks @Zhaeli.5416!

Additionally, the loss of WXP/Loot bag effects everyone but is most noticeable on FBs when we can go an entire night and not get a bag with our zerg. But scrappers are feeling it as well. Tempest may feel it a bit but their auras really keep them in the ticks, I believe. Druids as well. But everyone, esp. support, feels it. A better design should be implemented. That is all we are asking.  

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On 6/5/2021 at 10:06 AM, Zhaeli.5416 said:

FBs are arguing for a fair wxp/loot bag rewarding system for the same amount of time that they invest in to play as their teammates do.

I'd bet they're still getting more World XP and Loot than their roaming team mates.

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17 hours ago, Shining One.1635 said:

I'd bet they're still getting more World XP and Loot than their roaming team mates.

I bet their roaming team mates are getting less now than they did before retal was removed. Please do not compare the two. This is not a post about zerg hate. Take that elsewhere please. Thank you.

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6 hours ago, LadyHawk.5319 said:

I bet their roaming team mates are getting less now than they did before retal was removed. Please do not compare the two. This is not a post about zerg hate. Take that elsewhere please. Thank you.

It's not at all about zerg hate. I actually support the premise: Equal rewards across the board for time investment, regardless of preferred playstyle. If a Zerg Damage, a Zerg Support, and a Roamer each play for an hour, they should be rewarded the same. Right now, it's Zerg Damage > Zerg Support > Roamer.

 

I'm guessing you want Zerg Damage = Zerg Support > Roamer though.

 

Edited by Shining One.1635
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58 minutes ago, Shining One.1635 said:

 

It's not at all about zerg hate. I actually support the premise: Equal rewards across the board for time investment, regardless of preferred playstyle.

 

Yea I know. That's what I've been talking about, and to make that happen, we need to move away from the "tag everyone for loot" system.

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It seems like the only way to make this fair for everyone would be to remove all WXP and loot from kills.  Then the only rewards from playing WvW come from reward tracks.

 

That said I don’t think this is the biggest issue facing WvW.

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On 6/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, Zhaeli.5416 said:

FBs are not arguing for the return of Retaliation.  I wish everyone in this thread would stop focusing on that.

 

FBs are arguing for a fair wxp/loot bag rewarding system for the same amount of time that they invest in to play as their teammates do.

 

If support FBs ran in to clashes with their spicy Tome 1 firebooks, their teammates would be demanding the return of a competent FB who can keep them flush with Stability, Aegis, Regen, etc. 

We had the same argument when Druid came out.. Something was implemented so druids could get some tagging but yet it is insufficient. 

 

At least with FB you get some mainhand weapons so you can tag something, with druid you need to use the staff and that is even worse than longbow when tagging is about.   

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I see your point and yes, perhaps a rework of the entire reward system. Is this the most pressing WvW issue atm? Well, no, not really but yes to a degree in that it effects the enjoyment of a lot of players. Just in this one post there is a lot of frustration surrounding this one issue. That means it is important.

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