PoF and It's Perplexing Main Antagonist (Spoilers through PoF)

[HappyHubris.1096]

Courtesy Request: I have only played through PoF and would appreciate spoiler tags for later content.

A friend and I have returned to the game after playing through the HoT storyline and recently finished PoF.  The expansion - from a plot perspective - felt thin to me, with an undeveloped antagonist that didn't seem to have a huge presence on the world map.  During the story you bump into a bunch of Elonian lore (pre-and-post-Joko) and aesthetics, but the story just flirts with those concepts.

 

Now I am exploring Elona a bit and am floored by the worldbuilding around Joko.  His unique nation - a tension between the living and the awakened - are really fleshed out, with everything from rebels to cadets given ample development. His conflict with the branded is robust enough for its own expansion, and his ability to shape the region extends outside of small war camps to the fabric of society itself.

 

So why was Balthazar the antagonist of the expansion?  His motivations (rawr fight dragons) and impact (rawr kill dragons; break stuff); were fairly generic and easily could have been transferred to a different big baddie (e.g. Joko trying to kill and raise a dragon as a tool).  LW3 set up Balthazar as the next boss, but he seemed out of place where he landed and could have resurfaced in a future expansion or story chapter.  I get that people have been immensely curious to hear about the fate of the human gods, but that could have been done entirely without Balthazar's involvement if the protagonists petitioned the gods.

 

All in all, it just seems like a distraction from the rich zones and worldbuilding of PoF.  If I wasn't going back to explore I would have missed 80% of the lore content of the expansion pack, since I was chasing generic branded henchmen.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

So why was Balthazar the antagonist of the expansion?

Because Joko ultimately isn't that interesting, powerful, or even smart.

 

Back in the original Guild Wars Joko was a lore figure who tried to take over Elona, and failed because he didn't understand how supply lines worked, opening up a hole in his defenses for Turai to exploit. After his defeat he was sealed away for hundreds of years with no successful break outs. He only gets out because we let him out, and we don't let him out because we need his vast undead army, his powerful magics, or his tactical mind, we let him out because we need to learn how to ride the wurms. Then we just sort of don't care about him. Even then he needs us to do everything for him in regards to rebuilding his army. Such as getting his staff back, killing traitorous generals, etc. etc. because just can't do it himself.

 

Between GW1 and GW2 his takeover of Elona wasn't some grand scheme, it was sheer idiot ball luck. The Sunspears told the people of Elona they should do something about Joko, but they all went "nah" for no reason and let him stay there. Then he did something a literal child could do, which is look at a map and realize most of Elona's water comes from one river, and slapped a dam on it, forcing most of Elona to surrender to him to get the water back.

 

But Joko is still a narcissistic, self absorbed, idiot, with no real power, and we see that reflected in his shoddy empire throughout PoF.

• Joko has failed to take over Amnoon, despite trying for years and enforcing a blockade of it.
• Joko has failed to eliminate the Sunspears and their ideology, despite trying for years.
• Joko has failed to eliminate the Order of Shadows, whose main base is a stones throw from his castle.
• Joko has failed to eliminate the dissident movement, who maintains a large network of secret bases to smuggle people out.
• Joko's narcissism has led him to promoting idiotic yes men as various leaders, leading to widespread ineptitude, and civil unrest, across his kingdom.

 

Joko's empire was falling apart before we get there, hell, before Balthazar gets there. Even the Order of Shadows predicted it would fall in a few years/decade, because they planned to put Kossan as the leader of Elona, banking on his "related to a big hero" status, once it happened.

 

If you removed Balthazar, taking down Joko wouldn't have even taken something the size of PoF to do. Hell, we pretty much collapse Joko's hold on the entirety of the Crystal desert, down into the Desolation and Vabbi, in the expansion without even needing to have him as the main antagonist.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

whoops double post

Edited May 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Fueki.4753]

Balthazar really felt shoe-horned into the story.

 

 

It really feels like it was just a weird by-product of the Jormag and Primordus rise plot and the White Mantle/Mursaat plot.

In the end, Balthazar was shoe-horned into the story because Arenanet couldn't find a reasonable way to end both plot lines properly.

 

It'd have been better if it actually had been Lazarus who was the antagonist of PoF:

It'd have been a more interesting story, if Caudecus had used one of the soul pieces of Lazarus to gain control over the White Mantle. And then the shattering of the Blood Stone wakes up Lazarus, who then tries to kill the two dragons and absorb their magic.

After we stop him in Draconis Mons, Lazarus would set his eyes on Kralkatorrik.

Then PoF could have been almost like it is now, just with Lazarus instead of Balthazar, and with another secret weapon, that we just so happened to find in Elona (instead of Sohothin).

 

This way, Balthazar would not have been in the story - and therefore would not have been killed in PoF - and both Season 3 plot lines would have had a meaningful coexistence.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Tyson.5160]

53 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Balthazar really felt shoe-horned into the story.

 

 

It really feels like it was just a weird by-product of the Jormag and Primordus rise plot and the White Mantle/Mursaat plot.

In the end, Balthazar was shoe-horned into the story because Arenanet couldn't find a reasonable way to end both plot lines properly.

 

It'd have been better if it actually had been Lazarus who was the antagonist of PoF:

It'd have been a more interesting story, if Caudecus had used one of the soul pieces of Lazarus to gain control over the White Mantle. And then the shattering of the Blood Stone wakes up Lazarus, who then tries to kill the two dragons and absorb their magic.

After we stop him in Draconis Mons, Lazarus would set his eyes on Kralkatorrik.

Then PoF could have been almost like it is now, just with Lazarus instead of Balthazar, and with another secret weapon, that we just so happened to find in Elona (instead of Sohothin).

 

This way, Balthazar would not have been in the story - and therefore would not have been killed in PoF - and both Season 3 plot lines would have had a meaningful coexistence.

 

Spoiler

I guess it kind works, except for some of the god plot lines. It does cause problems for all the Mist travel in Season 4 though, since Mursaat have battle dragons before and in theory would have given the dragon phasing into the Mist abilities way back when, but didn't. 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Tyson.5160

[Fueki.4753]

27 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Spoiler

I guess it kind works, except for some of the god plot lines. It does cause problems for all the Mist travel in Season 4 though, since Mursaat have battle dragons before and in theory would have given the dragon phasing into the Mist abilities way back when, but didn't. 

 

The second half of Season 4 would need to be completely different.

But I think it was a horrendous idea to give Kralkatorrik that ability in the first place.

 

And you might want to edit a spoiler tag into your post, as the OP asked for that.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 5/20/2021 at 12:21 PM, HappyHubris.1096 said:

 

Now I am exploring Elona a bit and am floored by the worldbuilding around Joko.  His unique nation - a tension between the living and the awakened - are really fleshed out, with everything from rebels to cadets given ample development. His conflict with the branded is robust enough for its own expansion, and his ability to shape the region extends outside of small war camps to the fabric of society itself.

yeah, thats anothers reason why

 

Spoiler

the rushed kill of joko in LS4 was a bad decision.

 

[Zola.6197]

Yeah, I agree with the sentiments of your post. Balthazar was not very compelling as an antagonist, and his motivation that made him an antagonist just felt... contrived and overdone. Mad god of war? Hellbent on revenge? Wanting to watch the world burn to spite the other Gods? C'mon, ppl.

 

I did love the expansion as a whole, but Balthazar was a weak point in my opinion. I think I would've preferred a trajectory similar to the one you lay out, personally, barring some minor adaptions.

 

Unfortunately, we've learned S3 was more or less written on the fly. A sadly typical story for the studio at this point. If they're not running out of time or resources, they're just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Really hope they can redeem themselves in my eyes for EoDs.

 

 

[Rukia.4802]

He was a great disappointment . It seemed like Balthazar just went evil because lolz why not bro. I prayed to the dude in GW1. He gave me cool buffs. Its especially messed up if you chose balthazar as your god if you play as human. Really, really, stupid if you ask me.

 

lol @ the dude hating on joko.. let me guess, you prefer disney characters who are perfect.

[HappyHubris.1096]

6 hours ago, Rukia.4802 said:

 Its especially messed up if you chose balthazar as your god if you play as human. Really, really, stupid if you ask me.

As someone without a human "main," I didn't even think about this possibility.

[Faridah.8431]

As a human main and GW1 veteran, the whole Balthazar goes bad felt very contrived and even just talking to Kormir felt very unsatisfying. The way Lazarus got a shoehorned in ending in LWS3, I honestly would have had a lot more fun with Lazarus being the real Lazarus instead of Balthazar, trying to reclaim his power/glory and exact revenge as he vowed so long ago.

[Zola.6197]

I was happy to see Kormir again personally and didn’t have any real gripes about the interaction.

 

But yes, it is a very unfortunate missed opportunity to not see more of a conflict in the human commander on the Balthazar situation. They go pretty hard to make him bad, so far as torturing the souls in his afterlife domain into compliance (and forcing them to become Forged).

 

I had a human commander that was blessed by/worshipped Balthazar from my choices during character creation. It would’ve been a nice touch of nuance to show some deeper conflict for those humans that had that association. It would’ve been wonderful to have a deeper connection/understanding of Zafirahs perspective too when we first meet in S4. Oh well.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Zola.6197

[Ashantara.8731]

On 5/20/2021 at 8:36 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Balthazar really felt shoe-horned into the story.

 

Well, they had to somehow conclude the storyline in a decent way after the embarrassing portrayal of him in LWS3.

 

I actually liked the handling of his storyline in PoF much, much better than the previous embarrassment.