The All and its Balance explained with a Table.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Hi. (Im bored)

The All is a round Table with 6 legs.

Remove one leg and you dont really notice anything.

Remove two legs and the table gets kinda wobbly.

Remove three legs and the table will fall over easely.

 

You know these kinds of tables that only have one big leg in the middle? Thats Aurene.

 

 

[Psientist.6437]

I was ready and, not going to lie, a little excited by the prospect of a table showing your complex All theory. That was on me.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

58 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Hi. (Im bored)

The All is a round Table with 6 legs.

Remove one leg and you dont really notice anything.

Remove two legs and the table gets kinda wobbly.

Remove three legs and the table will fall over easely.

 

You know these kinds of tables that only have one big leg in the middle? Thats Aurene.

 

 

There were six legs.

 

One is removed, all is still good.

 

The one opposite the previously removed leg is removed, all is still good.

 

Another leg is removed, but as it is removed another is placed in the middle of where all legs both current and previous were located, all is still good.

 

Two more legs are removed, but the one in the middle keeps the balance. All is good, except that sometimes now the weight of the table shifts to the last leg on the perimeter. This threatens the balance. This is not good.

 

That last leg wants to remove the central balance and take over it's place. This leg is DSD, the Leviathan of the Deep, Cthulhu, Bubbles itself...

Beware, Aurene... Beware the shadows that stretch too far, and beware the waters that lay too still. For the abyss awaits and it stares longingly with hunger. 

[Tyson.5160]

38 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

There were six legs.

 

One is removed, all is still good.

 

The one opposite the previously removed leg is removed, all is still good.

 

Another leg is removed, but as it is removed another is placed in the middle of where all legs both current and previous were located, all is still good.

 

Two more legs are removed, but the one in the middle keeps the balance. All is good, except that sometimes now the weight of the table shifts to the last leg on the perimeter. This threatens the balance. This is not good.

 

That last leg wants to remove the central balance and take over it's place. This leg is DSD, the Leviathan of the Deep, Cthulhu, Bubbles itself...

Beware, Aurene... Beware the shadows that stretch too far, and beware the waters that lay too still. For the abyss awaits and it stares longingly with hunger. 

I do like this analogy and it might just explain the current situation.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I do like this analogy and it might just explain the current situation.

You know, Bubbles had better be on BAMF for all the secrecy around it. I'm going to be pretty miffed it they come out of hiding and are like "Oh look finally another friendly dragon to be pals with! Those other Elder Dragons were such monsters that I had to hide..."

 

Edit: Seriously, I want some Eldritch Horror kind of themes with it. Anet dipped their toes into the whole horror theme with the second and third episodes of IBS and they were the best part of that saga next to the Charr heavy metal concert of awesomeness.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Tyson.5160]

22 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You know, Bubbles had better be on BAMF for all the secrecy around it. I'm going to be pretty miffed it they come out of hiding and are like "Oh look finally another friendly dragon to be pals with! Those other Elder Dragons were such monsters that I had to hide..."

 

Edit: Seriously, I want some Eldritch Horror kind of themes with it. Anet dipped their toes into the whole horror theme with the second and third episodes of IBS and they were the best part of that saga next to the Charr heavy metal concert of awesomeness.

With the DSD being the last dragon, I am hoping that we will confront all the dragons again, either in some sort of solo battle with each dragon in some sort of mindscape. They could use the models of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, just reduced down, while also showing us the full (yet smaller) models of Jormag and Primordus.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

With the DSD being the last dragon, I am hoping that we will confront all the dragons again, either in some sort of solo battle with each dragon in some sort of mindscape. They could use the models of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, just reduced down, while also showing us the full (yet smaller) models of Jormag and Primordus.

But we kind of did that trope with Kralk already so hard pass.

[Tyson.5160]

44 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

But we kind of did that trope with Kralk already so hard pass.

This is essentially their last kick of the can for dragons, so if they want to show us some full models or some other unknown information, this would be it. I don’t even care if it’s a flashback at the beginning of the first dragon cycle, it would be great to see these full models. After this, who knows where the story goes. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Tyson.5160 said:

 After this, who knows where the story goes. 

I am going to guess after EoD we are going to get another LW season to clean up various Cantha related plots, like how LWS4 cleaned up the Joko problem, and had us helping the major factions come together to form a new government for Elona.

 

My magic 8 ball predicts that the expansion will be mostly focused on bubbles, with undertones of how crappy the Canthan Empire is, and LWS6 will deal with the Kurzicks and Luxons wanting to be free from the Empire, and stopping the Ministry of Purity. Maybe have Lyssa be the one controlling the Emperor/Empress for whatever reason to tie up the god plot as well.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

Is the all just a fancy way of saying the eternal alchemy?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/20/2021 at 12:04 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You know these kinds of tables that only have one big leg in the middle? Thats Aurene.

The issue I have with this argument is that the game makes zero effort to explain this.

 

Yes, Aurene can handle conflicting magics according to Descent, but:

 

1) This doesn't account for quantities of magic.

2) Tom Abernathy outright implies Aurene won't always be capable of handling conflicting magic in the Guild Chat following War Eternal.

3) No character actually establishes that Aurene can do balance The All alone. It's pure player interpretation based on Kralkatorrik's words in Descent and her title as "Prismatic" Elder Dragon (but the thing is, Prisms are just bright crystals, which is the domain she took - Crystal).

 

1 hour ago, White Kitsunee.4620 said:

Is the all just a fancy way of saying the eternal alchemy?

Seasons 1 and 2 treats it as such, but honestly it shouldn't be.

 

The Eternal Alchemy is the study and philosophy of all things in existence having interworking connections to each other, even things well beyond the scope of planet Tyria.

 

The All, or antikytheria, is the system of magic in and around the planet Tyria.

 

So The All should be a miniscule aspect of the Eternal Alchemy, with every planet in the multiverse having its own Antikytheria. The Eternal Alchemy would thus be a system comprised of hundreds of thousands of Antikytherias.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

15 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

With the DSD being the last dragon, I am hoping that we will confront all the dragons again, either in some sort of solo battle with each dragon in some sort of mindscape. They could use the models of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, just reduced down, while also showing us the full (yet smaller) models of Jormag and Primordus.

Similar to how we fought the Facet of Death and Shadow, and Facet of Root and Madness in Kralkatorrik?

 

[Which reminds me, we never did find out why that facet was called such, just that it was intentional...]

[Plagiarised.2865]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Prisms are just bright crystals

While prisms are crystals, I think saying just ignores the connotative connection with light. I feel using the term prism instead of crystal to be ingenious.

 

[Nogothanc.5014]

Hmm Table and Legs...  End of Dragons.... Does that mean we will have a Table without any legs?

Well if four elefants on a turtle take over I have hope for the story.

[Jaken.6801]

"It's all on the table" TM

Joking aside, there are problems with the analogy here, though.

Aurene is actually a new Dragon, a 7th Leg to the whole thing, born by none of the Elder Dragons.
She gets fed the energy, slowly growing to take over, but isn't centered. In fact, she doesn't even get all of the magic, as many is split between the others.
She would be opposite of DSD now, making the whole thing very wobbly
Even if she is able to take over DSDs role, centering herself, the with of the table is still a thing.
There are possibilites, that a single lef can support a table like that, but depending on the size of it, there are limits.
More so, if there is "stuff on the table" that moves, pulls, shifts.
Having more legs, where possible, is the better construct in the end.
Having Aurene be the only "barrier", is not a smart move, no matter how rightous she is.

So yeah... I only see chaos in the future... or lazyness
 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

While prisms are crystals, I think saying just ignores the connotative connection with light. I feel using the term prism instead of crystal to be ingenious.

While there is of course a correlation with prisms and light, it should also be kept in mind that ArenaNet likes to change god and dragon domains when others take hold of it, or when the individual goes from good to evil.

 

Abaddon pre-fall: God of Wisdom

Abaddon post-fall: God of Secrets

Kormir: Goddess of Truth

 

Mordremoth's domains of "plant and Mind" are also dubbed "Root and Madness".

 

Things like "secrets" and "madness" have clear connotations with darker, more dubious natures. While light and truth are more "good". Prisms would be thus a "good crystal" as it is, as you say, associated with light very directly.

 

And I know what you're getting at with the connection to light, you're referring to the Season 3 off-hand comment that magic is like light. Thing is, I kind of doubt that ArenaNet remembers this, as there are a lot of small details lost or outright changed if it happens after the main writers switched - and the main writers of Season 4 were hired post-Season 3.

 

Unless they had a big ol' sticky note saying "AURENE BECOMES PRISMATIC DRAGON BECAUSE MAGIC IS LIGHT" somewhere, I bet it was forgotten by most devs, who have to make use of the player-maintained official wiki to read up on lore because their own internal wiki that has far more accurate information has been out of date for nearly a decade now.

[Plagiarised.2865]

26 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Thing is, I kind of doubt that ArenaNet remembers this, as there are a lot of small details lost or outright changed

I guess this is where I disagree. I've read a lot of your views about the various 'details lost or outright changed' and find myself disagreeing with your interpretations. What I find to be either logical or contexually explained, you don't. 

 

I don't think devs forget the details; they just develop or go in a direction that don't make sense to you. I feel you and the devs are on different wavelengths, and thats fine.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

29 minutes ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

I guess this is where I disagree. I've read a lot of your views about the various 'details lost or outright changed' and find myself disagreeing with your interpretations. What I find to be either logical or contexually explained, you don't. 

 

I don't think devs forget the details; they just develop or go in a direction that don't make sense to you. I feel you and the devs are on different wavelengths, and thats fine.

That would be fair. But if you can understand the choices for these, feel free to enlighten me:

* The "Fang of the Serpent" with a visible gumline being turned to a tusk broken halfway (no gum).

* A lost dagger of importance to Balthazar never being brought up again.

* Multiracial Zaishen becoming purely human in PoF, with no mention ever of non-humans in the group.

* Branded Thralls, Branded Dredge, and Amnoon dragonbranded over never brought up after their episode. Similarly, Episode 1's and 2's Awakened Inquest of 5+ variants being unused in Episode 3, in favor of new enemies of 3 variants, which don't even trigger as Awakened kills.

* Kralkatorrik going from emerald green in Edge of Destiny novel and the Sorrow's Embrace cinematic, to pure purple in PoF and later.

* Caithe having collected Kralkatorrik's blood from Ascalon and the battle with Destiny's Edge at the end of Edge of Destiny novel, only to have no such blood in All or Nothing.

 

Now don't get me wrong, ANet manages to get some fine details remarkably right despite a long time passing. For example, Snaff having two of those arm gizmos, one blue and one red, which was only brought up in Sorrow's Embrace cinematic. Or how Thunderhead Peaks and Jahai Bluffs are pretty similar in design to the GW1 maps, fixing a common complaint about core GW2 maps.

 

But it's clear that there are some details which get lost, either due to the team-by-team episodic nature of Living World development, or by the passage of time and writers not knowing these things that are directly relevant to the plot (e.g., Caithe collecting Kralk's blood, or how the Dragonsblood Spear in the novel is worthless against branded foes but one-shots them, even in dialogue, in S4).

 

While some things, like making Aurene the One True Elder Dragon thus solving the four-year arc of "can't kill another Elder Dragon", might simply be a difference of opinion on good writing (I still maintain that even if they go that direction, it should be commented upon in-game, and not just assume that all players would understand the direction they're going). But I do think some of these are legitimately ANet not keeping consistency in the story - for whatever reason it may be.

 

And it's not like I'm making up that bit about the new writers using the fan-maintained wiki rather than an internal one. Devs have openly commented on how their internal wiki is so out of date and they have to rely on the player-maintained one for catching up and researching the lore from before them.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

* The "Fang of the Serpent" with a visible gumline being turned to a tusk broken halfway (no gum).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusk

A tusk is a kind of tooth.

 

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

* A lost dagger of importance to Balthazar never being brought up again.

This is just basic world building, and meant nothing more beyond that. You see this sort of thing in Bethesda games all the time. Not everything has to be a chekhov's gun.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

* Branded Thralls, Branded Dredge, and Amnoon dragonbranded over never brought up after their episode. Similarly, Episode 1's and 2's Awakened Inquest of 5+ variants being unused in Episode 3, in favor of new enemies of 3 variants, which don't even trigger as Awakened kills.

• Branded Thralls were made when Kralk was still testing out his new powers, and likely weren't deemed worth making later.
• Branded Dredge only happened because Kralk went over Thunderhead, and we went there and pretty much slaughtered the place right after, leaving none of the Branded Dredge left to reappear in Dragonfall.
• Amnoon wasn't completely dragonbranded over, the buildings were still itnact,and the vast majority of people were saved. After cleaning out the remaining branded they could all just so back to living in the city, now with extra purple bits.
• Many games will completely change the mob group of an enemy type every release to keep things feeling fresh, so players don't get worn out by fighting the exact same enemy NPC models release after release. There's also many places in the game where NPCs clearly labeled Svanir don't count as Svanir kills, because they wanted them to count as Icebrood kills to mechanical reasons.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

* Kralkatorrik going from emerald green in Edge of Destiny novel and the Sorrow's Embrace cinematic, to pure purple in PoF and later.

Given that they made Mordremoth green, they likely changed Kralk's color to make him stand out more. This is more of a retcon then them forgetting. Purple had been the color of its minions since core.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Touchme.1097]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That would be fair. But if you can understand the choices for these, feel free to enlighten me:

* The "Fang of the Serpent" with a visible gumline being turned to a tusk broken halfway (no gum).

* A lost dagger of importance to Balthazar never being brought up again.

* Multiracial Zaishen becoming purely human in PoF, with no mention ever of non-humans in the group.

* Branded Thralls, Branded Dredge, and Amnoon dragonbranded over never brought up after their episode. Similarly, Episode 1's and 2's Awakened Inquest of 5+ variants being unused in Episode 3, in favor of new enemies of 3 variants, which don't even trigger as Awakened kills.

* Kralkatorrik going from emerald green in Edge of Destiny novel and the Sorrow's Embrace cinematic, to pure purple in PoF and later.

* Caithe having collected Kralkatorrik's blood from Ascalon and the battle with Destiny's Edge at the end of Edge of Destiny novel, only to have no such blood in All or Nothing.

 

Now don't get me wrong, ANet manages to get some fine details remarkably right despite a long time passing. For example, Snaff having two of those arm gizmos, one blue and one red, which was only brought up in Sorrow's Embrace cinematic. Or how Thunderhead Peaks and Jahai Bluffs are pretty similar in design to the GW1 maps, fixing a common complaint about core GW2 maps.

 

But it's clear that there are some details which get lost, either due to the team-by-team episodic nature of Living World development, or by the passage of time and writers not knowing these things that are directly relevant to the plot (e.g., Caithe collecting Kralk's blood, or how the Dragonsblood Spear in the novel is worthless against branded foes but one-shots them, even in dialogue, in S4).

 

While some things, like making Aurene the One True Elder Dragon thus solving the four-year arc of "can't kill another Elder Dragon", might simply be a difference of opinion on good writing (I still maintain that even if they go that direction, it should be commented upon in-game, and not just assume that all players would understand the direction they're going). But I do think some of these are legitimately ANet not keeping consistency in the story - for whatever reason it may be.

 

And it's not like I'm making up that bit about the new writers using the fan-maintained wiki rather than an internal one. Devs have openly commented on how their internal wiki is so out of date and they have to rely on the player-maintained one for catching up and researching the lore from before them.

All I can say is ArenaNet has the money to invest in better quality for GW2, unless they are using all those money to make another game or two.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusk

A tusk is a kind of tooth.

You missed the point. When you break a tusk half way you don't get a gum line at the end of the broken off part.  The Fang of the Serpent did.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

26 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

You missed the point. When you break a tusk half way you don't get a gum line at the end of the broken off part.  The Fang of the Serpent did.

It isn't a gum line. Jormag doesn't even have gums its a being made of living ice.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

It isn't a gum line. Jormag doesn't even have gums its a being made of living ice.

Then what the crap do you call that? 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/f/f1/Fang_of_the_Serpent.jpg

 

I mean really, if Jormag doesn't have gums or at least an equivalent there of, then it doesn't have teeth or tusks either.

[videoboy.4162]

I always thought that was just something they used to attach the fang to the piece holding it to the ceiling. I never realized it was part of Jormag too. 

[Plagiarised.2865]

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

-snip-

So I find these points can be grouped into two categories: things not mentioned again and things changed.

 

Things not mentioned again:

* The lost dagger

* Multiracial Zaishen

* Branded and Awakened variety

 

On the things not mentioned again. I don't need them to be mentioned or shown again. Their introduction to the lore is enough for me. The lost dagger gives me cultural lore on how the people around Balthazar view him. It shows me thier practices on how they appease him; the way they honor him. I don't need nor expect the dagger to ever come up again. In fact, I like it that way. 

 

When it comes to the multiracial zaishen, I think it is important to note that EVERYTHING has a real-world reasoning and a lore reasoning behind it. Here they want a story about the fervor and fanaticism surrounding Balthazar, so having only human zaishen is the best way to go. 

 

To me, the fervor and fanaticism around Balthazar leading to only humans showing up in Path of Fire is a logical step. I get what you're asking for. You want an NPC or a note outright saying this; that with Balthazar's return the Zaishen pushed away the non-humans or broke off. I don't need that. Connecting the points is not only enough, but the best part of the lore for me.

 

Same for the branded and awakened. I don't need to see more branded dredge, or thralls etc. They are in the lore; thats cool. 

 

Things changed:

* Kralkatorrik's colour

* Fang of the Serpent

* Caithe's collection

 

The things changed, however, are points where I agree with you a bit more. At this point, its important to understand that games lend itself to restrictions or changes.

 

The fang was concieved as a tooth; but they might of found the design of Jormag with a missing tooth goofy or less intimidating or a any other reason. So it was changed. In the hierarchy of canon I place the latest stuff over older stuff. 

 

Kralkatorrik's colour would have clashed with past dragons. Maybe they wanted to use a different colour palette and have haromy with the design of the Dragonbrand. 

 

Every game's lore I ever participated in had a hierarchy of canon, because conflicts are a natural and expected part of a shared universe. And on top that you also have to make concessions towards gameplay, art direction, technology limitations, budget etc. 

 

My Hierarchy of Canon:

1. Newest released content takes precedence over older content.

2. Critical/golden path content takes precedence over non-critical/golden path content.

3. Text lore takes precedence over visual/asset lore.

4.  In-game lore takes precedence over blog posts, short stories, and novels.

5. Blog posts, short stories, and novels take precendence over forum posts and interviews.

6. Forum posts and interviews take precedence over dev answers and comments on personal venues (twitter etc).

 

Not into Speculative Lorebuiding:

Lastly I want to state that I don't really care much for speculating about the story or lore that might happen in the future. I don't find it fun or fulfilling (for any game not just Guild Wars 2). But I LOVE the lore and world-building. 

 

I would very much rather create posts about the lore and how it connects to each other after the fact. How to take the messy lore of a video game and connect it for my own fun. I find throwing my hands up and saying "the devs won't remember this, so it doesn't matter" to be boring. I will repeat, even if that is true, I find it boring.

 

For example, if I make a post about Sanguinary Blade shows the effects of the Blood of Jormag and how that connects to the conversion chambers of the Frost Legion, I don't care if the devs didn't think of that. It is my job for myself to connect dots.