The All and its Balance explained with a Table.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

18 minutes ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

For example, if I make a post about Sanguinary Blade shows the effects of the Blood of Jormag and how that connects to the conversion chambers of the Frost Legion, I don't care if the devs didn't think of that. It is my job for myself to connect dots.

Pretty much.

 

Honestly, I remember the days when RPGs were routinely mocked for having NPCs verbally diarrhea plot information to players as if they couldn't put basic dots together. Developers actually listened, and changed based on that feedback... then everyone immediately turned heel and become compulsive doubters, constantly claiming that unless NPCs verbally diarrhea things to players, then the developers didn't cover something, or mention something, or make a connection between things.

 

Its like... that isn't how writing works, like anywhere. Pretty much all media, be it novels, TV shows, movies, or games, doesn't have people constantly pointing out things like this. They just have it happen and let viewers use their brain to connect it. Those that do directly spew all this out are typically considered to have bad writing because of it.

3 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Then what the crap do you call that? 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/f/f1/Fang_of_the_Serpent.jpg

 

I mean really, if Jormag doesn't have gums or at least an equivalent there of, then it doesn't have teeth or tusks either.

Something they attached the tooth to hold it up with. Like, if the whole point is that no one has been able to break the tooth, how did they bolt the metal clamps holding it up into it in the first place? That would require cracking the tooth to get the bolts in. If they couldn't break it they would have to make something to fit around the end of the fang, and then attach the bolts onto that, in order to hold it up.

 

That or its part of Jormag's icy fang that melted, and re-solidified, after being hit by Asgier's fire enchanted weapon. Warping the severance point in the process.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[The Greyhawk.9107]

30 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Something they attached the tooth to hold it up with. Like, if the whole point is that no one has been able to break the tooth, how did they bolt the metal clamps holding it up into it in the first place? That would require cracking the tooth to get the bolts in. If they couldn't break it they would have to make something to fit around the end of the fang, and then attach the bolts onto that, in order to hold it up.

 

That or its part of Jormag's icy fang that melted, and re-solidified, after being hit by Asgier's fire enchanted weapon. Warping the severance point in the process.

Right, its totally a giant blob of petrified Fixodent or a perfectly evenly melted section of tusk instead of the gum line of the tooth that Anet originally billed it as and they forgot to model it with clamps instead of bolts.  What ever was I thinking.

[Plagiarised.2865]

46 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Right, its totally a giant blob of petrified Fixodent or a perfectly evenly melted section of tusk instead of the gum line of the tooth that Anet originally billed it as and they forgot to model it with clamps instead of bolts.  What ever was I thinking.

If we're going to be pedantic of the visuals, then why would there be visible gums if Asgeir knocked the fang out of Jormag's mouth? Gums are not connected to teeth that way. The interpretation is flawed from the very beginning.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

If we're going to be pedantic of the visuals, then why would there be visible gums if Asgeir knocked the fang out of Jormag's mouth? Gums are not connected to teeth that way. The interpretation is flawed from the very beginning.

Fine.  Root and Root Lobe, a broken tusk piece wouldn't have the root and root lobe at the end.  The interpretation itself wasn't flawed, it merely lacked the correct terminology.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

14 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusk

A tusk is a kind of tooth.

I know that. But a tusk is not a kind of fang.

Also doesn't answer the gumline.

Quote

This is just basic world building, and meant nothing more beyond that. You see this sort of thing in Bethesda games all the time. Not everything has to be a chekhov's gun.

Never said it had to be a chekhov's gun, but we know nothing about the dagger. Proper world building is more than just saying "there is a lost dagger of such importance that mercenaries decided to make him a replacement".

Quote

• Amnoon wasn't completely dragonbranded over, the buildings were still itnact,and the vast majority of people were saved. After cleaning out the remaining branded they could all just so back to living in the city, now with extra purple bits.

And those extra purple bits are MIA in Seized instance. All the crystals are, and Ascalon made it a plot point to indicate that clearing out the crystals is very, very hard work - near impossible for the High Legions. So Amnoon suddenly knows how to with zero damage to their infrastructure?

It feels weird, and not only to me as I saw it commented on a lot at the releases.

Quote

• Many games will completely change the mob group of an enemy type every release to keep things feeling fresh, so players don't get worn out by fighting the exact same enemy NPC models release after release. There's also many places in the game where NPCs clearly labeled Svanir don't count as Svanir kills, because they wanted them to count as Icebrood kills to mechanical reasons.

That's an entirely different reason.

For starters, the old enemies are often kept around as grunts for easier kills, such as how risen thralls and brutes are in later PS, or they're made as less common foes mixed in with the newer ones, like how HoT treats Season 2 mordrem.

There's a very clear transition in these cases.

None for the suddenly MIA Aawkened Inquest and Branded. Even if it was a case of we somehow slaughtering them all or Kralkatorrik stopped making more, you'd expect there to be some that slipped through the cracks showing up. Instead, the consistency of episode-to-episode forgetfulness feels more like an issue in team communication and asset sharing than it does an intentional lore reason.

As for the Svanir - the Season 3 team, for whatever reason determined that calling the icebrood who were formally Sons of Svanir as "Svanir". It's a logic I don't get personally, as it's nothing but adding confusion (I can only assume it was done to help differentiate the weaker core Icebrood Norn with the stronger Season 3 Icebrood Norn, but personally I'd probably give them new suffixes rather than a reused prefix). But their models, lore, and even skillset are fully the same as the Icebrood Norn/Claymore/Berserker/etc. from the core game. IBS just continued that newer trend.

The Sons of Svanir kills are specifically for non-icebrood cultists, whereas the icebrood cultists count to the icebrood kills. This makes sense, even if the name change doesn't.

Quote

Given that they made Mordremoth green, they likely changed Kralk's color to make him stand out more. This is more of a retcon then them forgetting. Purple had been the color of its minions since core.

Possible. But that's exactly what I'm talking about. Retcons, ignoring, or forgetting. They have the same outcome, and without picking their brain we can't tell which it is.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086
Condensing.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

 

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

It isn't a gum line. Jormag doesn't even have gums its a being made of living ice.

This is exactly my point with the design change.

In core, Jormag does have a gumline, as seen on the tooth model (or rootlobe if we get pendantic about terminology).

In IBS, Jormag doesn't have such.

 

The irony here is that Jormag's new design has two fangs, of near perfect size and shape to the Fang of the Serpent. The fang could have been one of those and there would be now zero issue.

Quote

The things changed, however, are points where I agree with you a bit more. At this point, its important to understand that games lend itself to restrictions or changes.

Which was the entire argument I was making before. And yes, I understand the notion of a hierarchy of canon. In fact, the very existence of a "hierarchy of canon" only furthers my original argument that devs often forget or retcon things.

 

 

Whether it's a case of "the lore doesn't need it" or "it's a logical external conclusion to make" or simply "they forgot", the fact is that they drop and alter canon lore all the time. And that very act creates a "hierarchy of canon".

 

And given the existence - and quantity of - the "hierarchy of canon" in GW2 lore, I find it very unlikely for ArenaNet to retain references to what is ultimately a very small mention several years ago. Because they seldom do anymore - regardless of the reason.

 

That's why I'm highly hesistant to accept Aurene's "Prismatic Dragon" moniker as anything but "crystal domain but good guy" until we have some solid implication in-game that the interpretation of Aurene as that central large pillar is an actual thing.

 

In the end, we still have zero solid implication of it, no character who wasn't inside Kralkatorrik's throat brings it up, and everyone just continues on killing Elder Dragons that they were told is a bad thing to do because boom goes the planet if they do for the past 5 years.

 

To me, it's less of an issue that they're turning Aurene into the One True Elder Dragon (although I disagree with this, and believe they have plenty of pre-existing possible replacement candidates that can be used), and more that they're doing so without showing or telling that they are, and just expect players to simply go with it.

 

It's the same vibe as "Somehow, Palpatine has returned." to me.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Plagiarised.2865]

13 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I find it very unlikely for ArenaNet to retain references to what is ultimately a very small mention several years ago. Because they seldom do anymore

I'm saying I don't care if they do or not. I'm not using past lore pieces as part of a puzzle to theorycraft on the future.

 

I view it like this—if the game stopped right now—how can I wrap the different strands of lore together. 

 

Do you view things differently?

Edited May 23, 2021 by Plagiarised.2865

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 minutes ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

I'm saying I don't care if they do or not. I'm not using past lore pieces as part of a puzzle to theorycraft on the future.

 

I view it like this—if the game stopped right now—how can I wrap the different strands of lore together. 

 

Do you view things differently?

I don't see how one can theorycraft with any weight without using past lore pieces as part of the puzzle. Because if you don't, then you can just theorize anything at all, without weight to consistency or canon.

 

To me, your first and your second comment are directly contradictory to each other. Because "how can I wrap the different strands of lore together" is the same exact thing as "how can I make the past lore pieces make sense together".

[Plagiarised.2865]

6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I don't see how one can theorycraft with any weight without using past lore pieces as part of the puzzle. Because if you don't, then you can just theorize anything at all, without weight to consistency or canon.

 

To me, your first and your second comment are directly contradictory to each other. Because "how can I wrap the different strands of lore together" is the same exact thing as "how can I make the past lore pieces make sense together".

 

Sorry about that. I'm saying I don't like (or care for) theorycrafting about future stuff. 

 

Hypothetically, my thought is this: if Champions Part 4 was the last content for lore, what would your in-universe (that's key) explaination for different lore subjects that occured up to that point.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Plagiarised.2865

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 minutes ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

 

Sorry about that. I'm saying I don't like (or care for) theorycrafting about future stuff. 

 

Hypothetically, my thought is this: if Champions Part 4 was the last content for lore, what would your in-universe (that's key) explaination for different lore subjects that occured up to that point.

The problem is that I can't answer that, because of the entire argument I've been making from the beginning of this thread:

 

ArenaNet doesn't lay any proper foundation for why the ending of Champions: Judgment occurs the way it does.

 

By the laid foundation we're given, then the world should be facing cataclysm due to the act of killing Primordus and Jormag (and, in fact,  the very clash itself should have wiped out a third of the Shiverpeaks - that's why the Six Gods decided to leave rather than fight, to prevent a second Crystal Sea-to-Crystal Desert situation).

 

The only way to explain it, is to take the player assumption that Kralkatorrik's very vague words means Aurene can handle balancing all magic by herself. The issue is that there is no allusion that "handling conflicting magic" means "handling high quantities of magic" or "replacing the need of four Elder Dragons alone".

 

Most players only come to that conclusion because of out-of-character reasoning and explanations, such as "Anet can't end the world as that ends the game" (something Tom Abernathy himself said with War Eternal Guild Chat). Which means despite the actions and foreshadowing, that everything will be okay because, basically, the planet has plot armor.

[Plagiarised.2865]

6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The problem is that I can't answer that, because of the entire argument I've been making from the beginning of this thread:

 

ArenaNet doesn't lay any proper foundation for why the ending of Champions: Judgment occurs the way it does.

 

By the laid foundation we're given, then the world should be facing cataclysm due to the act of killing Primordus and Jormag (and, in fact,  the very clash itself should have wiped out a third of the Shiverpeaks - that's why the Six Gods decided to leave rather than fight, to prevent a second Crystal Sea-to-Crystal Desert situation).

 

The only way to explain it, is to take the player assumption that Kralkatorrik's very vague words means Aurene can handle balancing all magic by herself. The issue is that there is no allusion that "handling conflicting magic" means "handling high quantities of magic" or "replacing the need of four Elder Dragons alone".

 

Most players only come to that conclusion because of out-of-character reasoning and explanations, such as "Anet can't end the world as that ends the game" (something Tom Abernathy himself said with War Eternal Guild Chat). Which means despite the actions and foreshadowing, that everything will be okay because, basically, the planet has plot armor.

 

And that's the way I interact with the lore.

 

Everything from S4 and before says A should happen but then in Champions, B happens. So then the reason must be XYZ. 

 

I guess I'm just trying to express how I interact with the lore. Am I wrong for greatly enjoying it this way?

 

[Raffrey.5271]

6 hours ago, Plagiarised.2865 said:

Kralkatorrik's colour would have clashed with past dragons. Maybe they wanted to use a different colour palette and have haromy with the design of the Dragonbrand. 

 

 

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Given that they made Mordremoth green, they likely changed Kralk's color to make him stand out more. This is more of a retcon then them forgetting. Purple had been the color of its minions since core.

 

So, the most likely color tone of deep sea dragon would be umber, coffee, ebony........

 

...or a mix of baby pink and cream? 🤔

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

 

 

So, the most likely color tone of deep sea dragon would be umber, coffee, ebony........

 

...or a mix of baby pink and cream? 🤔

Like a jellyfish?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 This is exactly my point with the design change.

In core, Jormag does have a gumline, as seen on the tooth model (or rootlobe if we get pendantic about terminology).

In IBS, Jormag doesn't have such.

Or, you know, it doesn't, and never did, and what you thought was a gum line was your incorrect personal misrepresentation of what it was.

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Never said it had to be a chekhov's gun, but we know nothing about the dagger. Proper world building is more than just saying "there is a lost dagger of such importance that mercenaries decided to make him a replacement".

We don't have to know, because "proper" world building(of which there is no such thing as proper) doesn't involve long complex explanations of mundane things like "he had a dagger that was important to him"

 

Why the dagger was important to Balthazar is like knowing the exact step by step process Joko used to make himself immortal. Its ultimately irrelevant because we can never act on it, and it wouldn't change the fundamental knowledge that it was important to him. Would it have been a nice extra detail to get? Sure. Is it important to know? No, not really.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Tyson.5160]

As was explained by the devs, it sounds like their will be updates in between the saga and EoD. So I’m excited to see if we receive any explanation of what’s going on, specifically with the All.
 

I personally found it interesting how the fallout of energy after dragonstorm as well as the sky having  the blue teal colour that is similar to the Spirit of the Wild.

[HotDelirium.7984]

Its gona be some new theory about the nature of Primordus and Jormag i.e. they "killed" eachother but their magic combined and will reconstitute into the Water dragon, in my conspiracy theory opinion allegedly. The perfect enemy is one hell bent on destruction but is shrewdly smart about it. 

[videoboy.4162]

A quick note about Kralkatorrik changing color:  He is/was the Crystal Elder Dragon and it's very common for crystals to change color over time or due to certain types of light. He may have also been purple due to the magic he was absorbing. I mean, he also looked like regular rock when you visited him in GW1 while he was sleeping. 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Or, you know, it doesn't, and never did, and what you thought was a gum line was your incorrect personal misrepresentation of what it was.

Yeah, again thats just totally so much more likely than current iteration of Anet kittening up when they decided to change the Fang into a piece of a tusk.  You astound me.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/23/2021 at 5:32 AM, Plagiarised.2865 said:

I guess I'm just trying to express how I interact with the lore. Am I wrong for greatly enjoying it this way?

I never said you were wrong about anything. In fact, you were the one claiming I was wrong. Please don't start playing the victim over what you began.

19 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Or, you know, it doesn't, and never did, and what you thought was a gum line was your incorrect personal misrepresentation of what it was.

Right. "my" incorrect "personal" misrepresentation for something that dozens of other people have also taken, and is visually a very key parallel to shark teeth.

And it is in no way at all possible that Zhengyi Wang, who made most post-HoT elder dragon art directions, simply took a new art direction compared to Kekai Kotaki who made most the core elder dragon designs. Which includes changing the fang to a tusk, and removing gum/rootlobe/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

I mean, your argument of it "melted and resolidified ice" or "frozen blood" doesn't even work because it's only on the Fang of the Serpent and not on Jormag's model.

19 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

We don't have to know, because "proper" world building(of which there is no such thing as proper) doesn't involve long complex explanations of mundane things like "he had a dagger that was important to him"

Never said anything about complex explanations. Please don't put words in my mouth. Again.

And the very fact it's stated to hold value to a god puts it above "mundane".

13 hours ago, videoboy.4162 said:

A quick note about Kralkatorrik changing color:  He is/was the Crystal Elder Dragon and it's very common for crystals to change color over time or due to certain types of light. He may have also been purple due to the magic he was absorbing. I mean, he also looked like regular rock when you visited him in GW1 while he was sleeping. 

Kralkatorrik actually doesn't look like rock to me in GW1. You can see some clear scale patterns on some parts of the lower portions of his model (unfortunately, no good image on wiki for a quick show), plus the upper portion look more like shell, far too smooth for most stone.

Though this doesn't bother me since it never really did make sense how that GW1 model could be mistaken as a mountain range.

As to the notion of changing colors because of magic he absorbed - possible, but it would be nice to get confirmation, even if in a single sentence, of these things in-game. Similar to how Drakkar's visual changes was addressed in-game via some off-hand ambient dialogue at Still Waters Speaking.

Which has been my point from the get-go so I'm just repeating myself.

[videoboy.4162]

I wasn't saying that Kralk was MADE of rock in GW1, I was saying he had the COLORATION of rock in GW1. I know he was still crystal.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Never said anything about complex explanations. Please don't put words in my mouth. Again.

And the very fact it's stated to hold value to a god puts it above "mundane".

The fact of the matter is anything beyond what we got would be a complex explanation. So what you are asking for is a complex explanation, regardless of how you try to backpedal on it.

 

No, the fact that it holds value to Balthazar just shows that he has as least some semblance of humanity by possessing basic human qualities like being able to care about mundane things like a gifted dagger. There doesn't have to be anything non mundane about said dagger. It could be an otherwise ordinary dagger(but ornate in design) given to him by Lyssa after they dated or something.

 

Gods are not these beings on a totally different mindset then humanity. Hell, two of the gods were human at one point, and, as we see with the others, even the ones that we don't know the origin of still act and think like humans, and are prone to all the positives and negatives of human thought.

 

The gods are fundamentally just people with a lot of power. And Balthazar caring about something like a dagger simply exists to show his humanity in a situation where he otherwise appears to have none due to his cold, uncaring, nature over him destroying the world to get revenge on the other gods.

 

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I mean, your argument of it "melted and resolidified ice" or "frozen blood" doesn't even work because it's only on the Fang of the Serpent and not on Jormag's model.

It wouldn't have to be on his model depends on how it possibly melted after it was broken off. In the time between the cutting strike, and before it cooled off.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509