WvW is draggin this game down.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

If you try to be good at everything you'll be good at nothing. And that's the core of the issue of GW2 combat system and WvW.
GW2 has a deep and fun combat system...that could be better, were it not for WvW and it's zerg scenarios.

The sings of this are showing in pvp, especially 2v2 deathmatch mode.
Here you can really express your skill and actually adjust builds to the enemies you get, because you don't have to deal with everything and a kitchen sink. Enemy dragon hunter? I'll go trait that gives me protection on being cc'd cause i know he'll pull me. Enemy core guard? Most likely burn guard. I'll invest into small, but frequent condi cleanses. Etc.

Less ppl = less chaos, more focus on counter builds rather than "holy meta builds" = more skill expression and more fun!
And this doesn't just mean what we got, but what we could get.
Imagine that torment does extra damage not based on stupid "not moving" condition, but based on proximity instead? You're close - normal damage. You're far - extra damage.
That would restore old purpose of it - punishing kiting, while not being stupidly oppressive (punishing all movement), or stupidly easy to outplay (just move).

Well WvW would be broken that's why. Anything remotely deeper that's focused on enemies paying close attention to eachother and using enemy build prediction, tracking their skill cooldowns and windows of opportunity falls flat on it's face in a zerg scenario, which is the WvW.
Someone tormented me? So from whom I shouldn't move away? There are like 10 necros in that blob? On top of that it could be more than just one that tormented me??
In that messy, visually cluster*****ed heap of ppl and effects there is no room for personal skill expression and traits/mechanics that are focused around such. And that in turn prevents them from being implemented, limiting options of other two game modes, especially the spvp.

In a game where combat is deep and has a strong focus on observing and understanding enemy build and win conditions, having balance be  focused
around massive zerg pvp fights simply hamstrings it's potential and possible growth of it's combat system...

Edited May 20, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Infusion.7149]

Good thing it isn't just about blobbing right? Skills are split between modes as well and people adjust comp usually based on groups they fight. You're thinking on a micro (build) rather than macro (squad) level, just like people that that use one-shot builds but don't focus on objectives (PPK+PPT).

Timing and map awareness, just as in PVP are just as important unless you're just following a commander.

2v2 deathmatch is much worse , I can assure you. Even in the first season necros were dominant already. Moa singlehandedly will negate an entire player if you have a burst comp, unlike in conquest where you can recover by respawn and positional rotation on the map.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Well you see, if you didn't know, WvW stands for

 

World

vs

World

 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

For many, many years I've been playing a WvW in a small guild where we often run 2-3 people for hours every day with off meta builds and when we engage enemies we often call out and determine the type of build because that changes target priority and how we fight, not to mention using our past experience on whether we fought those enemies before.

 

What kind of WvW have you been playing for the past 9 years?

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 man what the hell. go somewhere else, you clearly have no clue about Wvw.

 

and also not about 2v2s ... u literally praise that one meta where doublescourge is absolutely ruling and not even 50 people trying serious as the highest art in gw2's combat? notsure if u're trolling at this point.

 

people of fighting guilds play their comps because they have simply to deal with every random build around.  and the comps are set up to synergize simply

 

the larger the scale, the more important would be to have people logging into proper builds. if everyone would do that and be aware about movement ... it simply would not be chaotic at all. chaos happens if inexperienced players get stealthpushed and straight out panic. they don't prepare, they either just run and get destroyed or they afk and get nuked or the split up in all directions and get slowly mashed into their bag identity.

 

good players would just stay calm and mash their defense skills, kiting off, dropping dmg and cc's into the attacking group.

 

surely, these days not a supercommon situation, but these big clashes of equally good large groups can take about five-six clashes (cycles of engage-disengage) till one full shatters. if its over onepush, one group simply messed it up completely. on reset its also the lags, but that's not the numbers' fault. the servers are pretty bad, thanks to amazon.

[Shroud.2307]

Counter comp'ing is not skill, by the way. It is literally caring more about winning by switching to something that your opponent(s) cannot reasonably deal with instead of enjoying the fight and finding out who's more resourceful.

[KrHome.1920]

3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Counter comp'ing is not skill, by the way. It is literally caring more about winning by switching to something that your opponent(s) cannot reasonably deal with instead of enjoying the fight and finding out who's more resourceful.

And this is the reason why rock paper scissors suck. Even after two elite specs the game has too much of this.

 

Topic: PvP in this game is lost. It is so crippled in gear and build variety and overnerfed mechanics, you can't take it serious anymore.

[lodjur.1284]

8 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

If you try to be good at everything you'll be good at nothing. And that's the core of the issue of GW2 combat system and WvW.
GW2 has a deep and fun combat system...that could be better, were it not for WvW and it's zerg scenarios.

The sings of this are showing in pvp, especially 2v2 deathmatch mode.
Here you can really express your skill and actually adjust builds to the enemies you get, because you don't have to deal with everything and a kitchen sink. Enemy dragon hunter? I'll go trait that gives me protection on being cc'd cause i know he'll pull me. Enemy core guard? Most likely burn guard. I'll invest into small, but frequent condi cleanses. Etc.

Less ppl = less chaos, more focus on counter builds rather than "holy meta builds" = more skill expression and more fun!
And this doesn't just mean what we got, but what we could get.
Imagine that torment does extra damage not based on stupid "not moving" condition, but based on proximity instead? You're close - normal damage. You're far - extra damage.
That would restore old purpose of it - punishing kiting, while not being stupidly oppressive (punishing all movement), or stupidly easy to outplay (just move).

Well WvW would be broken that's why. Anything remotely deeper that's focused on enemies paying close attention to eachother and using enemy build prediction, tracking their skill cooldowns and windows of opportunity falls flat on it's face in a zerg scenario, which is the WvW.
Someone tormented me? So from whom I shouldn't move away? There are like 10 necros in that blob? On top of that it could be more than just one that tormented me??
In that messy, visually cluster*****ed heap of ppl and effects there is no room for personal skill expression and traits/mechanics that are focused around such. And that in turn prevents them from being implemented, limiting options of other two game modes, especially the spvp.

In a game where combat is deep and has a strong focus on observing and understanding enemy build and win conditions, having balance be  focused
around massive zerg pvp fights simply hamstrings it's potential and possible growth of it's combat system...

Zerg fights are dumb yes. Removing AoE cap (on damaging skills) and reworking the CC system would to a degree fix this.

 

Smallscale WvW is far more skill intensive than anything in sPvP

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

10 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Counter comp'ing is not skill,

 

That's not true.

 

Guild Wars 2's "game", is not just about mechanical skill, it's about whether you can make a better build then your opponent. This is actually what Guild Wars has ALWAYS been about since it's inception over 20 plus years ago. It's always been about developing a build that can defeat an enemy and THAT is what makes you better at the game then your opponent...Basically Guild Wars has always been a puzzle game, the puzzle is assembling a better and better build.

Edited May 21, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

Wait, did I miss the part where spvp players stopped complaining about PvE and now shifted over to complain about WvW?

 

Spvp, literally the 1 game mode which could get cut and almost no one would notice or care (probably not even NCSoft and their revenue), yet every other game mode is holding it back?

 

Good stuff.

 

In other news: better GvG support coming up guys. Hype!

Edited May 21, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[bigo.9037]

39 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

That's not true.

 

Guild Wars 2's "game", is not just about mechanical skill, it's about whether you can make a better build then your opponent. This is actually what Guild Wars has ALWAYS been about since it's inception over 20 plus years ago. It's always been about developing a build that can defeat an enemy and THAT is what makes you better at the game then your opponent...Basically Guild Wars has always been a puzzle game, the puzzle is assembling a better and better build.

Is that’s what you really think, then idk how to help you buddy. Making the “most optimal build” is incredibly easy for most vets. Everyone already knows what is best for meta / counter meta. Most roamers deliberately run weaker builds that aren’t nearly as strong because boon meta sucks, and nobody wants to main a build where they feel like they get hard carried by playing dura runes commanders/diviners BM WS soulbeast. Well, some ppl do, but they are usually mediocre players at best.
TLDR, best builds are not hard to make, ppl want skillfull combat.

[Shroud.2307]

43 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

That's not true.

 

Guild Wars 2's "game", is not just about mechanical skill, it's about whether you can make a better build then your opponent. This is actually what Guild Wars has ALWAYS been about since it's inception over 20 plus years ago. It's always been about developing a build that can defeat an enemy and THAT is what makes you better at the game then your opponent...Basically Guild Wars has always been a puzzle game, the puzzle is assembling a better and better build.

Winning, at least in PvP, is the objective. Wanting to do what will ensure that for your team is reasonable, but to what end?

There's experience needed to understand builds enough to know what counters what, but that isn't a skill, it's a strategy.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, bigo.9037 said:

Is that’s what you really think, then idk how to help you buddy.

 

Nobody asked you for your help actually.

 

If this game was merely about "mechanical" skill, then just make all classes exactly the same with the same weapons, skills, traits, gear and everything else like checkers or tic tac toe....at least that way it is actually fair right?

 

This is game theory stuff and it helps you understand what you're actually doing when you play a game from an analytical standpoint. Part of the game in gw2, is to make a build better then your opponent. Its not much more complicated then that, and it's what separates gw2 from other games. If you have a problem understanding something that basic then i think it's 'you' that needs some help.

Edited May 21, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Winning, at least in PvP, is the objective. Wanting to do what will ensure that for your team is reasonable, but to what end?

There's experience needed to understand builds enough to know what counters what, but that isn't a skill, it's a strategy.

Strategizing itself is a skill. One that requires intellect as well...and that's what part of the game is about...developing a strategy to defeat your opponent using not just mechanical...physical skill, but intellectual skill.

 

By physical skill I mean, how fast you are to hitting this button or that button and reacting to your opponents moves (this is mechanical/physical skill), while intellectual skill is determining the value of skills, which ones are bad, which ones are good and doing optimization analysis.

[bigo.9037]

1 minute ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Nobody asked you for your help actually.

 

If this game was merely about skill, then just make all classes exactly the same with the same weapons, skills, traits, gear and everything else like checkers or tic tac toe....at least that way it is actually fair right?

 

This is game theory stuff and it helps you understand what you're actually doing when you play a game from an analytical standpoint. Part of the game in gw2, is to make a build better then your opponent. Its not much more complicated then that, and it's what separates gw2 from other games. If you have a problem understanding something that basic then i think it's 'you' that needs some help.

Lol you must be pretty awful at game theory if you think it’s either one or the other. There’s a balance, a grey area. We already have 9 different classes with 3 different specs, I think we already have enough diversity. 
 

Also, literally every game has build customization to some degree?? What are you even talking about lol.

 

 What people want is to be able to express their skill on a certain class or spec, most ppl don’t wanna get hard carried by builds other than mediocre players who are still learning the in and outs. 
 

ofc, the skill expression comes 2nd priority to winning, but if you win merely because of build there’s no point. You gain nothing. Gz, you won playing a build that everyone knows is very very strong and has almost no weaknessess compared to someone trying to pull off a less powerful, high risk high reward build. Who do you think ppl will be cheering for?

[bigo.9037]

1 minute ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Strategizing itself is a skill. One that requires intellect as well...and that's what part of the game is about...developing a strategy to defeat your opponent using not just mechanical...physical skill, but intellectual skill.

 

By physical skill I mean, how fast you are to hitting this button or that button and reacting to your opponents moves (this is mechanical/physical skill), while intellectual skill is determining the value of skills, which ones are bad, which ones are good and doing optimization analysis.

What intellectual skill is, is mechanical. Speed is not as important. Why do you think top ranked players can swap regions and play with 250 ping and still destroy 99% off players they don’ fight? Because they mentally outplay their enemy, they know what enemy will do next and they know how to counter their next 1-3 moves.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

7 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Strategizing itself is a skill. One that requires intellect as well...and that's what part of the game is about...developing a strategy to defeat your opponent using not just mechanical...physical skill, but intellectual skill.

 

By physical skill I mean, how fast you are to hitting this button or that button and reacting to your opponents moves (this is mechanical/physical skill), while intellectual skill is determining the value of skills, which ones are bad, which ones are good and doing optimization analysis.

Lol I wouldn't bother buddy. Unless you're playing some power roaming build that these two people counter, anything else you play is simply unfair because they can't adapt to anything. You have to play by their rules and only builds they approve of.

Edited May 21, 2021 by BeepBoopBop.5403

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

10 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

Also, literally every game has build customization to some degree?? What are you even talking about lol.

Chess, Checkers, Tic Tac Toe and Fort-nite are just a few examples of games that do not have "build customization". There's an entire library of games that are designed to be perfectly balanced.

 

Quote

Lol you must be pretty awful at game theory if you think it’s either one or the other. There’s a balance, a grey area. We already have 9 different classes with 3 different specs, I think we already have enough diversity. 

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Game theory is about how autonomous agents make rational or irrational decisions with each other in different scenario's which are called "games". It says nothing directly about diversity at all.

 

Most of your comments are just biased, nonsense drivel for the most part and it's actually not worth wasting my time responding to them so. believe what you want to believe. I'll leave you to your own bliss. 
 

Edited May 21, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[bigo.9037]

3 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Chess, Checkers, Tic Tac Toe and Fort-nite are just a few examples of games that do not have "build customization". There's an entire library of games that are designed to be perfectly balanced.

 

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Game theory is about how autonomous agents make rational or irrational decisions with each other in different scenario's which are called "games". It says nothing directly about diversity at all.

 

Most of your comments are just biased, nonsense drivel for the most part and it's actually not worth wasting my time responding to them so. believe what you want to believe. I'll leave you to your own bliss. 
 

Yes perfectly rational and reasonable to compare chess to modern day MMORPGS , really smart move on your part there mr genius. Who would’ve ever thought of that. Never did i say i want perfect balance. You just made that assumption because you’re biased LOL.

 

 I find that people who main the tanky, boon heavy overblown meta builds tend to less skilled than people who play less powerful ones. Especially considering you can just press 2 buttons and tadaa, now you can run the same stupid meta build and likely win the fight , because you’re effectively learning to play without all the hard-carry mechanics, but then when you add them to your build you become stronger. 

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

1 minute ago, bigo.9037 said:

Yes perfectly rational and reasonable to compare chess to modern day MMORPGS , really smart move on your part there mr genius. Who would’ve ever thought of that. Never did i say i want perfect balance. You just made that assumption because you’re biased LOL.

 

 I find that people who main the tanky, boon heavy overblown meta builds tend to less skilled than people who play less powerful ones. Especially considering you can just press 2 buttons and tadaa, now you can run the same stupid meta build and likely win the fight , because you’re effectively learning to play without all the hard-carry mechanics, but then when you add them to your build you become stronger. 

Please, gimping yourself by running a bad build so you have an ego shield when you lose is just pathetic.

 

This you?? inb4 I'm horrible for playing the build all your friends play lmao

 

[bigo.9037]

5 minutes ago, BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

Please, gimping yourself by running a bad build so you have an ego shield when you lose is just pathetic.

 

This you?? inb4 I'm horrible for playing the build all your friends play lmao

 

Wow apparently I’m special enough to you that you make videos specifically about me, how cute. I have clips of you losing too, you know. And then you send this to me on forums as an irrelevant reply ?? XD Jesus dude. Chill the kitten out.

 

 And no i have a template with a different setup but I only use it when i feel it’s necessary. Against you? Not really. Shadowarts is a joke. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by bigo.9037

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

8 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

Wow apparently I’m special enough to you that you make videos specifically about me, how cute. I have clips of you losing too, you know. And then you send this to me on forums as an irrelevant reply ?? XD Jesus dude. Chill the kitten out.

 

 And no i have a template with a different setup but I only use it when i feel it’s necessary. Against you? Not really. Shadowarts is a joke. 

And there it is! I lost because I didn't use the real build LOLOL hows the ego going bro you shielded it real good

PS. if it's good enough for slonder, omni, yama, and everyone else that carries you then it's good enough for me!

Edited May 21, 2021 by BeepBoopBop.5403

[bigo.9037]

1 minute ago, BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

And there it is! I lost because I didn't use the real build LOLOL hows the ego going bro you shielded it real good

PS. if it's good enough for slonder, omni, yama, and everyone else that carries you then it's good enough for me!

I never said I didn’t lose. I lose all the time. But you lose vs me , too. Might wanna pick up some reading lessons buddy!

 

And what are you even talking about carrying lol.  I have never roamed with yama. We were in a havoc guide together back in like 2015 on EU i think that’s it. I just roam with friends for fun. 

[Shroud.2307]

4 minutes ago, BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

And there it is! I lost because I didn't use the real build LOLOL hows the ego going bro you shielded it real good

Speaking of ego, I always wondered between you and Hadi who the beta wolf is. My bet is you since you're the loudest.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

3 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Speaking of ego, I always wondered between you and Hadi who the beta wolf is. My bet is you since you're the loudest.

Idk man you the pro with those kinds of intimate duo relationships, hanging out with a Ventari rev 2 feet away from Mag SMC

 

I'm sure zpooky got nothing to complain about that though right? Door hugging with a support man it's your queue to bust his balls don't let me down.

Edited May 21, 2021 by BeepBoopBop.5403