Dhuumfire ; a rework suggestion.

[killfil.3472]

Here's how I'd change it up ; 

Dhuumfire allows shroud skills 1 to apply burning, varying in duration and intensity depending on the specialization.

Core ; Life Blast ; 2 stacks for 4 seconds. 

Reaper ; Life Rend/Slash/Reap ; 1 stack for 3 seconds.

Scourge ; all F skills ; 1 stack for 5 second. 

Remove ICD in PvE.

 

How do y'all like it?

[Obtena.7952]

Not sure it's really broken. 

 

Life Blast is a 1 second CD so the ICD on Dhuumfire doesn't impact it, 2 stacks for 4 seconds every second is quite a bit of DPS

All of the Reaper chains are 1/2 second, so you get burning every other chain step. Really, i think a burn stack for each step 3 seconds long is way too much DPS. 

Scourge is the only spec you have to manage the F1 on to get burning for every F1 application. Having 1 five second stack for EVERY F press is way too much.

 

Honestly, I think your proposal has way too much DPS from burning, even for a GM trait. 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Black Storm.6974]

7 hours ago, killfil.3472 said:

Here's how I'd change it up ; 

Dhuumfire allows shroud skills 1 to apply burning, varying in duration and intensity depending on the specialization.

Core ; Life Blast ; 2 stacks for 4 seconds. 

Reaper ; Life Rend/Slash/Reap ; 1 stack for 3 seconds.

Scourge ; all F skills ; 1 stack for 5 second. 

Remove ICD in PvE.

 

How do y'all like it?

The Reaper one is not changed, it is how it works now in PvE and seems fine to me.

 

Scourge: 1 stack for 5 seconds on every F skill and the removal of the internal cooldown in PvE seems really too much to me.

 

This is what I suggest to change on Scourge:
I’d remove the internal cooldown of Dhumfire and change it to 1 stack for 6 seconds at every F1 (also changing every trait related to Shroud 1 to only work with F1 on Scourge, adjusting the duration or the stacks of the applied conditions).
This way the instant cast support skills will be used for support and to activate related traits, instead of continuously spammed while using other skills to apply damage, and the internal cooldowns could be removed.

F2, 3 and 4 all have related traits already, those tied to Shroud 2, 3 and 4 for the other Necromancer specs. F1 and F5 will be the Shade skills that can be used to apply Condition damage.

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Black Storm.6974

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally I'd change it like:

- Dhuumfire: Apply 2 burn stacks (7s) on foes affected by shroud#3. (Apply on Doom, Terrify and Garrish pilar)

[Asum.4960]

13 hours ago, killfil.3472 said:

Here's how I'd change it up ; 

Dhuumfire allows shroud skills 1 to apply burning, varying in duration and intensity depending on the specialization.

Core ; Life Blast ; 2 stacks for 4 seconds. 

Reaper ; Life Rend/Slash/Reap ; 1 stack for 3 seconds.

Scourge ; all F skills ; 1 stack for 5 second. 

Remove ICD in PvE.

 

How do y'all like it?

I think it would be fine.

 

Core Shroud will still be a joke in PvE, but at least Dhuumfire Blaster (which is actually kind of a fun OW build, it just sucks) would actually beat simply auto attacking on everything else, so that would be nice (as in less bad).

No change for Reaper. 

For Scourge it will largely still be underperforming compared to other GM's (probably about 1/4 to 1/3 of Demonic Lore after this buff for example), and with 4-5 seconds not break the bank total DPS wise.  

 

Again, Necro needs "overpowered" Traits to make up for lacklustre weapons. 

If Necro Scepter had cleaving Torment on auto attacks and Skills like Searing Fissure, applying 6 burns AoE on a 3 second Cool Down (and providing Fire combo Fields) - These Traits would be too strong in addition to that. 

But Necro whacks Bleeds at single Targets with half a second cast time, and then 3 more bleeds on a 10 second cooldown. 

You can't really compare Necro Traits (especially those generally tied to Shroud) to other GM's, considering how much of a power Gap they need to close in terms of the whole profession design, and how low Necros baseline is in comparison. 

 

Now I much rather see Necro's weapons reworked than Anet having to ridiculously inflate GM's and (largely through that) Shroud, but considering it's been 8 years, I'm not hopeful. 

At least Traits have been getting some work - even if it results in obscene Traits such as Death Perception, Reaper's Onslaught and Demonic Lore, they are after all needed to make Necro just barely keep up in PvE (and for the most part still weren't enough). 

 

TL;DR:

For a Necro GM and the heavy lifting they need to do, it would still be weak, but better - but also in the current context of Balance, I wouldn't go higher than that either. 

Removing the pointless ICD as QoL certainly would be nice, and the extra second or two, and doubling for the incredibly weak Core Shroud (PvE), a nice touch.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Anchoku.8142]

One problem with core (Death Shroud) is that it does almost all power damage. Obtena, I think, raised the issue reletively recently but it has been around since release.

 

For that reason, maybe Dhuumfire should modify Life Blast by cutting power damage by 90% and adding maybe half of it back as long-duration burning stacks. There would be a split between game modes, of course.

 

This would allow shroud to support a condition damage build and could be "in addition to" its current mechanic. Shroud has always, always need a dps-loss for core condi builds and, with shroud uptime being so highly encouraged for core Necro, a more extensive trait modification to shroud damage type might finally resolve this conundrum.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Anchoku.8142
Additional explanation

[Asum.4960]

35 minutes ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

One problem with core (Death Shroud) is that it does almost all power damage. Obtena, I think, raised the issue reletively recently but it has been around since release.

 

For that reason, maybe Dhuumfire should modify Life Blast by cutting power damage by 90% and adding maybe half of it back as long-duration burning stacks. There would be a split between game modes, of course.

Considering Life Blast in PvE needs it's damage buffed by close to 100% (or rather cast time halfed), I don't really see the issue/need. 

 

Just for reference, a Power Reaper simply Auto Attacking in Shroud does about 15k DPS.

Life Blast with the same build (replacing Reaper with BM) does barely 5k DPS (about the same as Reaper, or most other profession's base weapons, AA'ing with GS out of Shroud) - and even if we balance out Reaper's innate Quickness by applying it to core, it's still less than 8k DPS (about the same for condi Core Necro, build around Life Blasting/Dhuumfire). 

 

Add to that that Reaper's AA generates LF, has easier/better cleave, adds innate Quickness and CD reduction with exclusive Traits, and Reaper Shroud providing additional DPS increasing skills such as Soul Spiral, Core Shroud and Life Blast are in a pitiful spot in PvE, and really wouldn't require any tradeoff for additional Burning.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Anchoku.8142]

19 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Considering Life Blast in PvE needs it's damage buffed by close to 100% (or rather cast time halfed), I don't really see the issue/need. 

 

Just for reference, a Power Reaper simply Auto Attacking in Shroud does about 15k DPS.

Life Blast with the same build (replacing Reaper with BM) does barely 5k DPS (about the same as Reaper, or most other profession's base weapons, AA'ing with GS out of Shroud) - and even if we balance out Reaper's innate Quickness by applying it to core, it's still less than 8k DPS (about the same for condi Core Necro, build around Life Blasting/Dhuumfire). 

 

Add to that that Reaper's AA generates LF, has easier/better cleave, adds innate Quickness and CD reduction with exclusive Traits, and Reaper Shroud providing additional DPS increasing skills such as Soul Spiral, Core Shroud and Life Blast are in a pitiful spot in PvE, and really wouldn't require any tradeoff for additional Burning.

True enough about the dps disparity.

The concept of converting DS from a power-based transform to a condi-based one with the Dhuumfire trait is still attractive to me.

[Dadnir.5038]

55 minutes ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

One problem with core (Death Shroud) is that it does almost all power damage. Obtena, I think, raised the issue reletively recently but it has been around since release.

 

3 out of 5 skills (dark path, doom, tainted shackle) apply conditions, that's good enough to qualify as hybrid from my point of view.

And I'd rather have Barbed precision's chance to apply bleed on critical hit raised to 100% while in shroud than Dhuumfire applying burn on shrd#1 like it does right now.

[Anchoku.8142]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

3 out of 5 skills (dark path, doom, tainted shackle) apply conditions, that's good enough to qualify as hybrid from my point of view.

And I'd rather have Barbed precision's chance to apply bleed on critical hit raised to 100% while in shroud than Dhuumfire applying burn on shrd#1 like it does right now.

None of the other skills count as a condi-dps option. They are tactical skills. If running a condition damage build, camping shroud is a huge dps loss; much larger than the loss from Life Blast on a power build.

 

There is no way in core Necro to avoid a dps loss for taking much time away from scepter's auto-attack.

 

Death Shroud is fine for PvP, especially in a power or boon-corrupt use, but it still fails badly in PvE such that it should be avoided aside from proc'ing the skills and traits you mentioned or soaking up incoming damage. Condi-dps in DS is especially low. Scepter's bleed and poison stacks begin rolling off the boss as soon as it's AA stops and will take time after exiting shroud to stack them back up.

 

Also, don't forget Life Blast is much, much weaker with a condition damage build. DS should only be used sparingly on a condi-dps build, which is a shame because at this point LF is really only useful as a second health bar. The lower LF gen rate with scepter on bosses kind of supports this.

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

True enough about the dps disparity.

The concept of converting DS from a power-based transform to a condi-based one with the Dhuumfire trait is still attractive to me.

Having build a perma Shroud Blasting  build for OW (simply as DnD Warlock like Eldritch Blast Gimmick), Condi Dhuumfire Blaster does infact already perform slightly better than a power Life Blaster. 

 

The problem is just that, aside from being fun as concept, both are terrible - and both Dhuumfire and Life Blast would need a significant buff to make it even just viable as a meme build.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Shroud.2307]

How about this one,

"Burning applied by you scales with Power instead of Condition Damage. Corrupting or removing a Boon applies Burning (x1, 2sec, 8sec ICD)."

Or maybe

"Corrupting Boons applies Burning (x1, 2sec, 8sec ICD) for every Boon Corrupted." 

Or

"Apply Burning in an area when entering Shroud (x2, 5sec, 240 radius, 10sec ICD)."

Idk.

[Asum.4960]

3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

How about this one,

"Burning applied by you scales with Power instead of Condition Damage. Corrupting or removing a Boon applies Burning (x1, 2sec, 8sec ICD)."

Or maybe

"Corrupting Boons applies Burning (x1, 2sec, 8sec ICD) for every Boon Corrupted." 

Or

"Apply Burning in an area when entering Shroud (x2, 5sec, 240 radius, 10sec ICD)."

Idk.

I'm honestly not a fan of these. Necro doesn't really need that extra power in WvW and PvP, and they will be yet more mostly dead Traits in most of PvE (at least until Anet goes back to overhaul much of the old PvE experience to be more engaging with modern power levels, including adding boons to mobs - so likely never). 

Making Conditions scale with power seems like it would cross a fundamental mechanical line of the game, and in general Boon Corrupts are imo already punishing enough as is. 

 

As for Burn on Shroud, Anet years ago already decided that Shroud flashing was not a behavior they wanted to encourage, even to a point where Speed of Shadows' Shroud CD reduction had to die for those Trait's sins. 

I don't think they want to add more on Shroud effects back into the game, especially since with it being in Soul Reaping, you could stack this effect with Spite's Spiteful Spirit and Curses' Weakening Shroud to trigger all 3 of those instantly without telegraph when entering Shroud - again further unhealthy gameplay in PvP modes sure to get nerfed, while being lacklustre for general PvE.

[Anchoku.8142]

This discussion is confined to Death Shroud (core Nec) in PvE. Assume a "numbers" split for other game modes and no changes to elites in any game mode.

 

Really, Death Shroud is a perpetual problem in PvE with core weapons being the other problem. Core Necro does not have a power-build for large hit-box dps (MH dagger) or enough utility to earn it a pass.

 

There are a lot of problems with Necromancer but Arenanet has steadily worked to patch some of the worst ones, even if it took two elite spec's to do it. I hope they can focus rework efforts on closing the remaining issues.

[KrHome.1920]

Dhuumfire is fine. I don't get why people want to change it. Necro has far worse mechanics.

 

Condi core necro can condi scourge do not need any damage buffs in the competitive modes unless you nerf their sustain at the same time. 

 

Reaper is the only necro spec, that has no viable condi build, despite dhuumfire having the biggest effect (stacking up to 5 burns) for reaper - and it's still not viable. This just shows that the trait itself is not a problem at all.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Anchoku.8142]

38 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Dhuumfire is fine. I don't get why people want to change it. Necro has far worse mechanics.

 

Condi core necro can condi scourge do not need any damage buffs in the competitive modes unless you nerf their sustain at the same time. 

 

Reaper is the only necro spec, that has no viable condi build, despite dhuumfire having the biggest effect (stacking up to 5 burns) for reaper - and it's still not viable. This just shows that the trait itself is not a problem at all.

 

Well, it is Core's Life Blast on a condition damage build that is the problem. Changing what Dhuumfire does in Death Shroud is more to fix Life Blast.