Is Snowcrows builds and armor stats required in raiding?

[vanflyheight.6832]

So like it says above, is the site snowcrow truly relyable to use for raids or can a player craft their own build for this and still be able to run?

[Infusion.7149]

You can still make your own build but ultimately unless you have a good understanding of the game I would not mess around. If you're with your friends or own guild group you can run whatever you want for fun or memes (like 10 necros , 10 revenants, or 10 engineers). *

One of the best sites for raiding is actually Lucky Noobs' site.
https://lucky-noobs.com/benchmarks

They've actually been quicker with new builds post patch, Snowcrows does not have any staff mirage or heal quickness scrappers for example. LuckyNoobs also has more gear variations.

* Even if you do understand the game I would suggest trying the build in Aerodrome first.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Vilin.8056]

The most direct requirement in raid isn't the build, but your performance output. It's simply that Snowcrow builds makes what's most optimal to reach that performances target.

 

If you having trouble maintaining 20k damage per second on a training golem, I suggest simply follow Snowcrow.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 5/23/2021 at 5:52 AM, vanflyheight.6832 said:

So like it says above, is the site snowcrow truly relyable to use for raids or can a player craft their own build for this and still be able to run?

Both.

 

You can indeed try to craft your own builds and see how good they will end up. If you have good understanding, they might turn out to be quite okay (and, if really good, might end up being surprisingly close to the builds on Snowcrows site). If your understading of the game systems is not up to par, though (which is quite normal state for a huge majority of players - it is a very complex system after all) you might end up with builds that will significally handicap you while trying the content.

 

On the other hand, you can always rely on the builds on Snowcrows' (and other, similar sites) to be at a certain level of quality. By messing around with the system you're unlikely to be able to improve on those (and if you can do that, you are probably one of those players that are known to site makers, and one of the people that shape the meta - by that point it won't be you using a Snowcrows build, but rather Snowcrows posting your build)

 

Edit: to clarify. It is possible to finish the content with subpar/homemade builds, if your skill is high enough, but the differences between best builds and inefficient ones can be massive. The greater the difference, the greater the skill requirement to overcome it. The top 1% players could possibly do the raid encounters even in massively inefficient gear and builds - but don't assume that holds true for everyone else (because it does not).

 

Edit 2: To make it even clearer.

Yes, you can rely on snowcrows. They supply good builds

Yes, it is possible to craft your own build and still be able to run (obviously, since all of the snowcrows' builds were done this way).

No, it's not very likely a build crafted this way will be equal (or even come close) to meta builds.

And, finally, no, not everyone can do that anyway. Most people trying their own builds will run into problems in more high-end content.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Oldyoung.6109]

 

[Fangoth.4503]

On 5/23/2021 at 4:52 AM, vanflyheight.6832 said:

So like it says above, is the site snowcrow truly relyable to use for raids or can a player craft their own build for this and still be able to run?

To begin with raid SC/LN builds are great and best build to have. Even if your skill level is low you'll be able to do perform decently dps/boon/heal wise. 
A homemade/offmeta build will perform slightly worse but can sometime be an asset ( less dps to bring more boons, less dps to bring more heal, less heal to bring more dps) but you need to know what you're doing. for example lately i've been enjoying  playing seraph/celestial hfb which was kinda troll at start but end up being a great build to be between solo and double heal that deal descent damage as trade off for the healing lost and proved to be efficient and easily usable in descent pug groups.
So i wouldn't recommend going homemade/off meta when starting but you'll be able to enjoy it as you get better 😉

[Firebeard.1746]

On 5/22/2021 at 8:52 PM, vanflyheight.6832 said:

So like it says above, is the site snowcrow truly relyable to use for raids or can a player craft their own build for this and still be able to run?

For DPS, absolutely. For healers and tanks (or anything taking a significant amount of damage), take it with a grain of salt and do what works best. Sometimes groups need more survivability while learning and a lot of the builds focus more on damage as much as possible. But even doing that, you want to make sure you're not sacrificing any offensive boons for your group.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Moradorin.6217]

The Best thing to do Van when starting out with raids is to pick a basic not hard to play build from snowcrow's that has inexpensive gear like a berserker dps setup. Just because its less expensive to get up to speed with and some builds are rather hard or situational. Some like chrono are rather good, but also rather horrible dps depending how its played. For instance, some people try to fill a dps role but use toughness (very bad in raids) or healing (when not the healer) or other things that might make sense or be ok in OpenWorld, but literally set that person up to be poor dps.

 

I would suggest setting up arcdps and also use the test area in the aerodrone a bit with which ever you wana use. Make sure you understand the basics of the rotation, what the CC skills are, if it has pulls or other situational skills, what roles that class is asked to cover for typical pugs. Make sure you are using the correct stats for the build. Doing these things will help you fill the role and avoid attracting the grief of others. Most people are pretty chill but even in chill groups people can get upset when someone is pulling 4-7k as a DPS role even in a training raid. Like on Gorseval, for instance, it becomes a huge liability.

 

IMO you really NEED arcDPS to be able to do raids. The reason I say that is otherwise you cannot really accurately see how your performing also once your setup its reassuring to see that your performing ok, and it can indicate to you when things arent working

 

Starting out a DPS class is usually easiest. Get arc setup. make arc show party dps window, and cc dps so you can see both. Setup at least a power dps build maybe also a condi dps build. Avoid the odd builds that arent suggested on most bosses, rather go with a high dps on small hitbox power type build if only using one. That way you fit the role for most/all bosses. Avoid doing heavy support roles until you know the boss fights and mechanics to avoid complicating things too much early. Its helpful to take at the encounters suggestions on snowcrow for the build you plan to use also it will show you which traits and weapon sets are usually effective for each boss and also usually goes into and special jobs that class does, like flak kite, cc skills, or other situational issues that are boss specific for that class/build.

 

Raiding isnt really hard or expensive to get into many people like myself run chill raids and dont mind new people, but it can become an issue if people use the wrong equipment, traits, etc then they can become a burdon to the squad and hold everyone back. What Im saying is, just get a basic easy to use raid approved build and practice it enough to get by then join some training type raids and you should be all set to have fun raiding with little to no grief. 

[Virdo.1540]

Required?  Technically no. 

 

If playing with randoms yes.

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:12 PM, Virdo.1540 said:

Required?  Technically no. 

 

If playing with randoms yes.

Not "technically no", but JUST no.

 

And if playing with randoms then still no, quite literally depends on who you're playing with.

[Virdo.1540]

48 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not "technically no", but JUST no.

 

And if playing with randoms then still no, quite literally depends on who you're playing with.

Most randoms will kick you if you play offmeta

[Linken.6345]

19 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Most randoms will kick you if you play offmeta

No they will kick you if you under preform.

[Sobx.1758]

56 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Most randoms will kick you if you play offmeta

No, not really.

[Virdo.1540]

Playing offmeta will almost always mean that you will perform worse or have a harder time performing equally good like Meta builds

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Playing offmeta will almost always mean that you will perform worse or have a harder time performing equally good like Meta builds

Conveniently enough, I've randomly played with someone from sc yesterday through lfg and nobody tried to enforce meta builds or top performance, but "you and your randoms" sure are too good for that and everyone constantly kicks everyone.

Stop making up these weird stories. I was never kicked for not playing meta, which obviously doesn't mean it can't happen, but definitely makes your claims false as some kind of general rule.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Fangoth.4503]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:02 AM, Virdo.1540 said:

Playing offmeta will almost always mean that you will perform worse or have a harder time performing equally good like Meta builds

nah i know quite a few player being able to top dps in pug with builds out of SC website.

Being beginner and run a wild build will handicap you more than anything so I'm not advising to do so when starting in raid. First learn bosses in good conditions using SC build and whenever you're good enough to be top dps (or do good dps as tank or be comfy solohealing bosses) in most pugs then you can go with more wild builds and have fun that way.
Just don't handicap youself when you're begining 🙂

[Obtena.7952]

On 6/30/2021 at 8:02 PM, Virdo.1540 said:

Playing offmeta will almost always mean that you will perform worse or have a harder time performing equally good like Meta builds

That doesn't make sense. Players will perform best with builds they are familiar with and want to play. A label some players apply to a build has nothing to do with it. These fairy tales are old. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Fangoth.4503]

57 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. Players will perform best with builds they are familiar with and want to play. A label some players apply to a build has nothing to do with it. These fairy tales are old. 

it would be true if all player were capable of choosing the traits that makes the best DPS/heal/boon but sadly its not always the case. There is some home make so called "DPS" build that does less than hybrid healer build...

eg: 4th dps as seraph hFB

https://dps.report/nA5H-20201127-100017_ice

outdps a soulbeast and spellbreaker as celestial hFB
https://dps.report/G8Lp-20210618-004708_ice

Don't get me wrong I like having a large variety of traits and gear options and think it's one of the best thing in the game as you can go wild and do crazy/stupid stuff. But sadly having so much options is also what makes people fail to get into harder content as they run inadapted trait/gear which makes them underperform. And as they can't put their pride aside and question their capacity at setting up a build they cannot progress and get in fractal/raid

Edited July 3, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Obtena.7952]

36 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

it would be true if all player were capable of choosing the traits that makes the best DPS/heal/boon but sadly its not always the case. There is some home make so called "DPS" build that does less than hybrid healer build...

eg: 4th dps as seraph hFB

https://dps.report/nA5H-20201127-100017_ice

outdps a soulbeast and spellbreaker as celestial hFB
https://dps.report/G8Lp-20210618-004708_ice

Don't get me wrong I like having a large variety of traits and gear options and think it's one of the best thing in the game as you can go wild and do crazy/stupid stuff. But sadly having so much options is also what makes people fail to get into harder content as they run inadapted trait/gear which makes them underperform. And as they can't put their pride aside and question their capacity at setting up a build they cannot progress and get in fractal/raid

The barrier to getting into harder content isn't what build people are using. The build is irrelevant if people don't know how to use it or play the content itself. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Fangoth.4503]

42 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The barrier to getting into harder content isn't what build people are using. The build is irrelevant if people don't know how to use it or play the content itself. 

well take it as you want but i'd take anyday:

-a cFB that does 17.5k by auto attacking with SC build and gear
https://dps.report/YGGY-20210704-012643_golem
over
-the axe shield Nomad cFB (still SC build, didn't even change traits and i had some harrier trinkets and a viper ring so technically they inflate the dps 😅 but not gonna buy nomad trinkets to see how low it goes) that do 12k dps because he do an okish rotation.
https://dps.report/aiDj-20210704-012347_golem

And the difference is even worse if he has home made traits

Edited July 4, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

And the difference is even worse if he has home made traits

The worst difference is a player that knows how to play the build he uses vs. the one who doesn't in any specific bit of content. It's not up for discussion ... playing meta builds is not a safety net for 'know not' players. Meta is optimal and as such, will only be optimal in the hands of people that know and can play optimally. The build is the least important factor and has the smallest impact on the success for completing instanced content. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LittleYoshi.2548]

Maybe everyone should just stop using the word "Meta" in this discussion and refer to builds as efficient or not efficient for whatever they are supposed to do.
You need an efficient DPS build? -> tons of builds with decent DPS on SC with a good variety of skill required to pull them off (from difficult stuff like Condi Weaver to easier builds like Condi Scourge or Power DD)
You need a builds that provides Quickness/Alac or whatever your team wants? SC has those builds and explains how to play them in their guides.
Whats the purpose of someone playing a full Shaman or Nomads or whatever randomly put together type of gear they might have on something like a Soulbeast and doing literally nothing for the group (No boons, No DPS, No heals).

And just by the way. Hardstuck website has a ton of very pug and beginner friendly builds on their side, so if for some reason people are scared of the word Meta or Snowcrows, just visit the Hardstuck or Lucky Noobs or even Metabattle website and look at their builds and read the explanation what they are used for and how to play them.

[Fangoth.4503]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The worst difference is a player that knows how to play the build he uses vs. the one who doesn't in any specific bit of content. It's not up for discussion ... playing meta builds is not a safety net for 'know not' players. Meta is optimal and as such, will only be optimal in the hands of people that know and can play optimally. The build is the least important factor and has the smallest impact on the success for completing instanced content. 

 

Then how comes a good amount of the player base isn't capable to do as much as they would do by auto attacking with a SC build? FYI snowcrow are not only meta builds, the offer the best dps/boon/heal available per specs but most of em are not meta on any boss at all. if it was only meta build you'd have only build used for speedrun and not the builds for casual clearing
 

[Nephalem.8921]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The worst difference is a player that knows how to play the build he uses vs. the one who doesn't in any specific bit of content. It's not up for discussion ... playing meta builds is not a safety net for 'know not' players. Meta is optimal and as such, will only be optimal in the hands of people that know and can play optimally. The build is the least important factor and has the smallest impact on the success for completing instanced content. 

No you are just wrong on that. Again. Most homebrew builds simply dont work. The soulbeast builds without sic'em and LB only + marauder gear and wrong pet are bad and useless no matter how "good" the player can play them. Meta is a safety net because most of them have higher aa damage than the stuff a lot of people come up with.

The build has an incredible high impact on completing content since it just takes eternities with a build that does 2k dps, doesnt heal and gives no boons. I encountered plenty of those builds in rec fractals.

[maddoctor.2738]

On 7/1/2021 at 3:02 AM, Virdo.1540 said:

Playing offmeta will almost always mean that you will perform worse or have a harder time performing equally good like Meta builds

 

If that was true then players using sub-par gear, even green gear, wouldn't out-dps players using Ascended with meta builds. But that does happen a lot. Having a "meta build" doesn't mean anything if you don't know when (and where) to use it.

 

It also depends on what we mean by "using a meta build". I mean even on the SC website they clearly state which "meta build" is good on which boss, and which is terrible. So using an off-meta build might be more powerful than using a "meta build" that is not good on a particular boss.

 

To answer the OP's question, no it's not required to use snowcrows builds but they are indeed the best available builds, and can make a massive difference. However, you should READ the entire build, how to use the build and on which boss to use it on, instead of doing a copy/paste of the standard and expect it to work out of the box (and on all bosses).