Poll: Should Scourge be nerfed?

[DanSH.6143]

title

Edited May 23, 2021 by DanSH.6143

[Kuma.1503]

Unpopular opinion: What is it the young-uns call it these days? "Hot take"?

 

Nerfing Scourge isn't the correct solution. It's an easy solution. It's a short term solution, but I do not think that PvP will necessarily be better with scourge gone. Once the novelty wears off of whatever build takes their place, there's no guarantee that things will be any better. 

 

There are a few things that should be done in my opinion:

 

1.) Hit Ctrl+Z on a lot of the feb patch changes as well as a few of the followup changes. Amulet removals, 300 CD traits, CC's dealing no damage. These are changes that, in my opinion, have a net negative effect on the game mode. They're not without their merits, but the downsides of each outweigh the upside. 

 

2.) Take a new approach to balance. There's a lot of quality feedback on proffession specific forums. There's pages of ideas on how we can improve proffessions, make them feel better to play, less frustrating, what's currently too strong or too weak, ect. I'd like to see more back and forth on those forums, but this obviously requires resources and time. The pay-off however could be huge, and it would help to generate more good will within the community if people feel like their voices are being heard. 

 

3.) Cheating, match manipulation, botting, and frequent afking all need to dealt with. You cannot have a healthy competitive environment where these types of activities are permitted. 

 

 

 

[RedAvenged.5217]

Just nerf Rez utilities and it’ll be fine. Dps team comps can function and do their job perfectly fine but they generally lose because of rezzing. Just watch Eu mat finals and you’ll understand.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

buff necro

[Shao.7236]

Too much base barrier on shade skill and shroud given everything else available. Needs to be lower to put emphasis on what stats players are using so that glass is glass and support is support.

 

Weaver at a time had just as much Barrier if not more available and look where it is now, at least possible to defeat without ridiculous feats. I think it's much more balanced this way.

[Virdo.1540]

Reduce barrier by ~30% from scourge

and reduce core necro shroud by (at least) 40%      

[mortrialus.3062]

I don't mind scourge inherently when they're in a reasonable place, good team fight damage but easy to focus down, especially on bad players with bad positioning, bad 1v1 capacity.  It should be nerfed but I don't think deletion is necessary.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

I wonder how many +vitality/+healing power amulets anet will remove from the game before they realize the major problem is that they have never updated downstate to match the constant damage nerfs over the last year.  Scourge is overtuned in the current meta for sure, but balance in general is pretty much buggered across the board until they address this critical flaw.

[Axl.8924]

Whoever voted to delete scourge went for the extreme.

 

Imagine if we did that and voted for your fav class and opted to delete your elite say chronomancer or scrapper or holosmith or dragonhunter or somethin maybe berskerker.

 

as for nerfs well maybe. there definitely seems to be some sort of difference in power now due to everyone else being nerfed and not scourge.

 

In my opinion we should balance out builds by having good counters instead of deleting options so whatever counters scourge should be made sure to be viable to kill scourge and keep it in its place, and since scourge specifically is the one who is able to get the most out of blood bank, then perhaps scourge should be looked at, since core can't really give barrier.

 

Also as for boon corrupt i saw in the video: Why was that guardian throwing so many boons and feeding it to the nec?

 

It would seem like instead of nerfing boon corrupt maybe guardians shouldn't have so many boons and try to control.

 

Boon corrupt is only really that strong if you continously spew insane amounts of boon. The proof of this is same as in pve: Why is boon corrupt useless in pve? Because most mobs don't spew insane amounts of boons.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Aktium.9506]

Out of curiosity, what place in PvP do those of you who dislike Scourge want the spec to excel?

 

Disregard 2v2 and 3v3 since balance in those modes is completely irrelevant and does not matter in the slightest. We're talking Conquest.

[Vancho.8750]

5 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

Whoever voted to delete scourge went for the extreme.

 

Imagine if we did that and voted for your fav class and opted to delete your elite say chronomancer or scrapper or holosmith or dragonhunter or somethin maybe berskerker.

 

as for nerfs well maybe. there definitely seems to be some sort of difference in power now due to everyone else being nerfed and not scourge.

 

In my opinion we should balance out builds by having good counters instead of deleting options so whatever counters scourge should be made sure to be viable to kill scourge and keep it in its place, and since scourge specifically is the one who is able to get the most out of blood bank, then perhaps scourge should be looked at, since core can't really give barrier.

 

Also as for boon corrupt i saw in the video: Why was that guardian throwing so many boons and feeding it to the nec?

 

It would seem like instead of nerfing boon corrupt maybe guardians shouldn't have so many boons and try to control.

 

Boon corrupt is only really that strong if you continously spew insane amounts of boon. The proof of this is same as in pve: Why is boon corrupt useless in pve? Because most mobs don't spew insane amounts of boons.

 

Well Berserker is off the table for 4 years now(somewhere at the end of HoT), I m all of up for redesigning kitten or broken stuff, but Arenanet is not willing to put on the effort in fixing broken design, so it is only fair to bench Scourge till they have better plan for it, lets say 4 years, so it is not detrimental for not one but the two PVP modes in the game.

Scourge in neither fun to play, play against or even watch for that matter. It is just terribly designed for PVP, long lasting AoE sparkles is not the way to go.        

Edited May 24, 2021 by Vancho.8750

[Axl.8924]

14 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Well Berserker is off the table for 4 years now(somewhere at the end of HoT), I m all of up for redesigning kitten or broken stuff, but Arenanet is not willing to put on the effort in fixing broken design, so it is only fair to bench Scourge till they have better plan for it, lets say 4 years, so it is not detrimental for not one but the two PVP modes in the game.

Scourge in neither fun to play, play against or even watch for that matter. It is just terribly designed for PVP long lasting AoE sparkles is not the way to go.        

4 years is a lot to ask for, considering how long nec has been back and forth waiting to be ok for scourge. I don't know if in 4 years if there might be a GW3 or if this game is active by then.

 

There has to be a way to not completely wreck a class. Look at the state of eles for instance, nobody in their mind wants to be in a situation like that with ridiculous CDS with 300 sec and sometimes a way to keep a game healthy is to have a  healthy option that counters builds, say thief for instance.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Vancho.8750]

1 minute ago, Axl.8924 said:

4 years is a lot to ask for, considering how long nec has been back and forth waiting to be ok for scourge.

 

There has to be a way to not completely wreck a class. Look at the state of eles for instance, nobody in their mind wants to be in a situation like that with ridiculous CDS with 360 sec and sometimes a way to keep a game healthy is to have a  healthy option that counters builds, say thief for instance.

Core necro and Reaper were fine when scourge was off line in pvp (Reaper actually could shine then), so necro always has options for pvp and scourge is actually cannibalizing the rest of the builds for necro which is not good for the game, 2 out of 3 is a fine when the other classes have barely 1 working build for PVP.

As you say ele is off, warrior is off and mesmer is off most of the time and they have glimpses in the meta from time to time, their HoT elites have been well benched for a long time, and their PoF specks have been strong then nerfed  over and over till they just sometimes disappear, the thing is why is scourge getting special treatment while being probably worse for the game compared to them.

      

[Axl.8924]

29 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Core necro and Reaper were fine when scourge was off line in pvp (Reaper actually could shine then), so necro always has options for pvp and scourge is actually cannibalizing the rest of the builds for necro which is not good for the game, 2 out of 3 is a fine when the other classes have barely 1 working build for PVP.

As you say ele is off, warrior is off and mesmer is off most of the time and they have glimpses in the meta from time to time, their HoT elites have been well benched for a long time, and their PoF specks have been strong then nerfed  over and over till they just sometimes disappear, the thing is why is scourge getting special treatment while being probably worse for the game compared to them.

      

 

I don't think it has to be this way. 

 

I think there has to be a way to balance scourge chronomancer mirage deadeye for instance weaver.

Sure they are problematic, but putting extra effort into making every elite viable someway or another adds  something.

 

The problem is scourge is getting lotsa barrier but with small nerfs it could stay viable i think and still be fun.

Scourge is a teamplayer, even more so than others. It doesn't have to get completely destroyed.

 

Also folks have given some tips to ANET on what they can do to fix weaver for instance chronomancer mirage deadeye.

 

Peeps have mentioned prob traits. Heck i even saw someone mention something about how the nerfing of other stuff causes one to prop up, and its true. When boon corrupt was nerfed for a while and scourge was less desireable in SPVP, boonspam was rampant and a issue. All it took was the deletion of a build to reveal a problem. part of it is that part of it is the fact that its counters got nerfed maybe too hard.

 

 

[Vancho.8750]

10 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

I don't think it has to be this way. 

 

I think there has to be a way to balance scourge chronomancer mirage deadeye for instance weaver.

Sure they are problematic, but putting extra effort into making every elite viable someway or another adds  something.

 

The problem is scourge is getting lotsa barrier but with small nerfs it could stay viable i think and still be fun.

Scourge is a teamplayer, even more so than others. It doesn't have to get completely destroyed.

 

Also folks have given some tips to ANET on what they can do to fix weaver for instance chronomancer mirage deadeye.

 

Peeps have mentioned prob traits. Heck i even saw someone mention something about how the nerfing of other stuff causes one to prop up, and its true. When boon corrupt was nerfed for a while and scourge was less desireable in SPVP, boonspam was rampant and a issue. All it took was the deletion of a build to reveal a problem. part of it is that part of it is the fact that its counters got nerfed maybe too hard.

 

 

See I don't have much hope as you, after the last balance patch where they nerfed Berserker and condi management on warrior for no reason or the fact that Malyx rev now can kill itself , even though the patch was meant for PVE it affects everything in the negative and those were eye gouging mechanical issues that they left, not numerical that can be fixed later. This shows clear lack of understanding of their own game which is scary.

Believe me I want everything to have its place in pvp, but I have not seen proof that they are willing to go the extra step of redesigning bad ideas.   

Edited May 24, 2021 by Vancho.8750

[Axl.8924]

9 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

See I don't have much hope as you after the last balance patch where they nerfed Berserker and condi management on warrior for no reason or the fact that Malyx rev now can kill itself , even though the patch was meant for PVE it affects everything in the negative and those were eye gouging mechanical issues that they left, not numerical that can be fixed later. This shows clear lack of understanding of their own game which is scary.   

Thats exactly why i fear heavy nerfs. Often heavy handed nerfs leave a class in a really bad place for lnog periods of time unlike wow which sure they mess up real bad but at least they are more rapidly working to fix problems and usually attempting to at least keep all classes viable.

 

I think destroying mes cause of the illusions is bad, even if its problematic because it can explode and deal lotsa dmg. I still think it has a counter to it, and i dunno i guess i wouldn't want a fan class to be wrecked.

 

I think some fo the nerfs to berserker sound kinda dumb, like they didn't know what to do with it.

 

What really ticks me off though, is the long long cds on mist form and teleport for ele. 

A class so delicate compared to others who are much beefier shouldn't have their mobility wrecked. Just imagine if thief lost all his or her mobility and stealth, you would need to beef up their sustain a lot. Some things don't work.

 

And what you described is a reason why we need devs who play a class and dedicate to it.

 

I can't really speak about mallyx rev, as i never played rev, but it sounds really bad unless its compensated with heavy reward.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Khalisto.5780]

3 to 4 months from now we getting new elites most of what we're playing now will be gone for an year at least

 

The 12 second barrier could use a 50% cd increase, i would also undo all the buffs to healing skills from patch transference was added

[Vancho.8750]

19 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Thats exactly why i fear heavy nerfs. Often heavy handed nerfs leave a class in a really bad place for lnog periods of time unlike wow which sure they mess up real bad but at least they are more rapidly working to fix problems and usually attempting to at least keep all classes viable.

 

I think destroying mes cause of the illusions is bad, even if its problematic because it can explode and deal lotsa dmg. I still think it has a counter to it, and i dunno i guess i wouldn't want a fan class to be wrecked.

 

I think some fo the nerfs to berserker sound kinda dumb, like they didn't know what to do with it.

 

What really ticks me off though, is the long long cds on mist form and teleport for ele. 

A class so delicate compared to others who are much beefier shouldn't have their mobility wrecked. Just imagine if thief lost all his or her mobility and stealth, you would need to beef up their sustain a lot. Some things don't work.

The whole issue comes from that Arenanet does not want to tackle the core problem of the mechanics they put in and they nerf stuff in the hope it will reach manageable levels, but in some cases like mirage or scourge it just doesn't work since their mechanic is too good for PVP. So they have to change how it works(which almost never happens) or nerf it out of existence so we don't have to deal with broken design for years.  

For malyx the whole idea of it is to stack conditions on yourself for the grandmaster trait and copy them to enemies so you had resistance  to not kill yourself with the torment you put on yourself, but resistance  counters disabling conditions only now and malyx didn't get a rework to go with it, so the condi managment speck doesn't have condi managment so only nerfs and now compensation buffs. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Vancho.8750

[DeanBB.4268]

I'm not arguing that Scourge is fine, just that Anet changing their game based on such a poll is a bad idea. 

[Disney.7826]

If they nerfed scg game would be in perfect state.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

No to deleting scourge. I don't wish what happened to berserker on anyone else.

I think a handful of classes need some of their damage back so scourge has to panic, but that's all. 

 

Even shaving scourge at this point could be risky work since torment is gutted in pvp. I'm fine with it being a sandbag(punintended)as long as it only works against a portion of the game, not all of it. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Axl.8924]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

No to deleting scourge. I don't wish what happened to berserker on anyone else.

I think a handful of classes need some of their damage back so scourge has to panic, but that's all. 

 

Even shaving scourge at this point could be risky work since torment is gutted in pvp. I'm fine with it being a sandbag(punintended)as long as it only works against a portion of the game, not all of it. 

He makes a good point

[Fueki.4753]

It certainly needs to be toned down, especially it's AoE capabilities and Barrier.

 

But Arenanet is most likely not going to do that.

Even if they allegedly try to nerf Scourge, they just nerf everythingelse instead by removing amulets.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 5/23/2021 at 10:45 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

buff necro

 

Necro definitely needs buffs. I'm tired of this weak barrier mechanic that is useless. I am tired of get beat up when I go into Lich which is supposed to be an elite skill. The blood trait line does not leech enough life value and Necro should revive faster because it is supposed to bring dead things back to life. Minion is need a serious buff and I want new Necro spec in EOD to have access to Ranger pets and traps so I can Rune Of Stealth God on my Necro.

 

ty

[GutterRat.1269]

17 hours ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

I'm not arguing that Scourge is fine, just that Anet changing their game based on such a poll is a bad idea. 

That's not anything to worry about.

For one thing, they rarely actually issue any balance patches.

Second, they are busy juicing up the next p2w elites which need to be to PoF elites what PoF elites were to HoT ones.

Lastly, they don't read these forums.