For the love of god, rework the forced mobility on Death Blossom

[Sons.5493]

Make it behave like a dodge and let us do it while staying in the same spot.

Nothing feels worse than dying on a raid/strike/fractal because your main dps skill forces you into an AoE. And considering how cluttered most fights are... yeah...

And let's not talk about DB with Superspeed.

Please give D/D some QoL!

Edited May 25, 2021 by Sons.5493

[Stand The Wall.6987]

this skill has needed a rework for some time. d/d relies on stealth in competitive, yet using the dual attack un stealths you. its a condi spam skill on a power set. its really weak compared to other dual attacks and leaves you open to a counter attack/ cc at the end of the animation.

 

i kind of like the mobility seeing as how d/d is pretty immobile compared to other sets, but it can be clunky. not sure what should be done with it but it would be good to see some more ideas in this thread.

[Jumpel.3972]

14 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

this skill has needed a rework for some time

 This skills need rework since the beginning of the game ! It's a condi dual-skill on a direct damage weapon set !

[Sons.5493]

3 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

 it but it would be good to see some more ideas in this thread.

They could literally make it behave like the Weaver's Twist of Fate. It's responsive, feels good to use  and its a powerfull evade tool. They could even keep the same animation and make the skill throw a couple projectiles like the DrD dodge does.

[pureskullz.7536]

It'd be nice if they made it like vault/shadowstep with casting and made it 400-600 ish range. I hope they do look at it and do something to it it'd be amazing if they made the dodge match the animation length. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

It needs more mobility to make D/D ever usable in competitive ever again.

 

It needs a higher skill cap to execute for its damage output which should subsequently be increased.

 

For the millionth time I've reposted my change proposal over the years:

Quote

Death Blossom needs a rework. Fixed-distance dash evade 600 units with half duration currently, bleeds single-target in larger stacks at the end of the movement so that it won't reveal if used as defense while in stealth (like it currently does which actively works against power D/D). Can't be spammed this way for damage since you'll always be moving away and then dealing the damage, and encourages better spacing and non-spam by condi builds, while providing better mobility and fixes a lot of problems with escapees and disengage potential with power builds, and gets synergy with CnD for the condi variant.

Drop the cost to 4 due to slightly higher dependence on CnD for optimized damage and lack of spammable PbAoE damage, since it no longer becomes a viable damage source like FS nor a true disengage like IS/IR on S/D, and this can keep condi playing in the same style as power by having it use CnD to reposition/gain distance, and strike again for the fixed-distance strike.

With this, condi D/D now requires more skill and active initiative management, and now you've got a consistent performer across power/condi and D/D actually has some synergy and value across its skills for both builds. Power gets buffed in mobility and sustain which it desperately needs.

 

PvE, they can just buff the stacks or give the thief on-crit/backstab bleeds in Deadly Arts.

Edited May 28, 2021 by DeceiverX.8361

[Sons.5493]

To the very least, i'd like to have the option to stay in place while using that skill. The times i get immob and i can use it without going to africa feel like a blessing... it really shouldnt be like that.

[kash.9213]

31 minutes ago, Sons.5493 said:

To the very least, i'd like to have the option to stay in place while using that skill. The times i get immob and i can use it without going to africa feel like a blessing... it really shouldnt be like that.

 

I don't know if Anet has some kind of convention but they might try to put a root on DB if we didn't have to think about or pacing, target, and direction like Pistol Whip. I use skills like that either untargeted or toggled to action cam so I might remember it wrong but I think DB would launch me somewhere if I had a target selected and wasn't within cleave range or something.

[Sons.5493]

On 5/30/2021 at 10:47 AM, Demonhead.7584 said:

I think this a great idea, they could call it the GW1 Elite "Moebius Strike" 😄 . Perhaps instead of throwing a projectiles, it strikes enemies from bottom to top  for like x4 for 300 dmg per strike, and gives you an evade like Twist of Fate. 

They really dont even have to rename it, just make it behave like twist of fate  with some twists here and there (shoot projectiles, particles, sfx, make the evade window/animation time match what we have now). This would make D/D such a stronger set imo, you would have a lot more control over your evades and positioning, wether u wanna disengage, dodge in place or chase and it would solve the issues Death Blossom has with things like super speed, chill and cripple.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 5/31/2021 at 7:20 AM, Sons.5493 said:

They really dont even have to rename it, just make it behave like twist of fate  with some twists here and there (shoot projectiles, particles, sfx, make the evade window/animation time match what we have now). This would make D/D such a stronger set imo, you would have a lot more control over your evades and positioning, wether u wanna disengage, dodge in place or chase and it would solve the issues Death Blossom has with things like super speed, chill and cripple.

 

Disengage with what, exactly?

 

Three quarters of a second animation of spinning there while someone with superspeed can press w and bomb their feet and kill you after?

 

DB needs more mobility, not less.  Its damage just needs to come at the end of that mobility, and its damage improved to make spamming it not broken.  Suddenly cripple/chill don't matter, it escapes superspeed, works in stealth, gives D/D good engage (because D/P dominates it due to Shadow Shot), and decent mid-combat mobility without having the balance nightmare that IArrow is via vertical shadowstep effects and a higher range.

[kash.9213]

On 5/31/2021 at 4:20 AM, Sons.5493 said:

They really dont even have to rename it, just make it behave like twist of fate  with some twists here and there (shoot projectiles, particles, sfx, make the evade window/animation time match what we have now). This would make D/D such a stronger set imo, you would have a lot more control over your evades and positioning, wether u wanna disengage, dodge in place or chase and it would solve the issues Death Blossom has with things like super speed, chill and cripple.

 

That would basically be a pistol whip and that gets me killed in WvW more than it helps. I need d/d to have reach, at least as long as it doesn't have any good stops.

[Sons.5493]

On 6/2/2021 at 8:00 AM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Disengage with what, exactly?

 

Three quarters of a second animation of spinning there while someone with superspeed can press w and bomb their feet and kill you after?

 

DB needs more mobility, not less.  Its damage just needs to come at the end of that mobility, and its damage improved to make spamming it not broken.  Suddenly cripple/chill don't matter, it escapes superspeed, works in stealth, gives D/D good engage (because D/P dominates it due to Shadow Shot), and decent mid-combat mobility without having the balance nightmare that IArrow is via vertical shadowstep effects and a higher range.

I think we have a fundamental disagreement on what D/D is supposed to be. From my point of view I want to have more control over where my character is going, I want to be able to not kill myself on bosses, fractals and other kinds of PvE content because my main dps ability is forcing me to move forward and X amount of meters. Thus making DB work like Twist of Fate would accomplish that. 

 

I see your point, I slightly disagree with the evade window issue because you could argue that every dodge is like that. As long as the evade frames would last until the very end of the animation I see no issue that would not apply to any other dodge.

 

Also i feel like you wanna make D/D play like D/P and at that point why not just play D/P, they could make DB be an exact copy of Shadow Shot and D/P would still be the superior PvP set.

 

Then again you are viewing this topic thru the lens of PvP and I'm doing thru the lens of PvE, we are bound to have fundamentaly different opinions.

[DeceiverX.8361]

7 hours ago, Sons.5493 said:

I think we have a fundamental disagreement on what D/D is supposed to be. From my point of view I want to have more control over where my character is going, I want to be able to not kill myself on bosses, fractals and other kinds of PvE content because my main dps ability is forcing me to move forward and X amount of meters. Thus making DB work like Twist of Fate would accomplish that. 

 

I see your point, I slightly disagree with the evade window issue because you could argue that every dodge is like that. As long as the evade frames would last until the very end of the animation I see no issue that would not apply to any other dodge.

 

Also i feel like you wanna make D/D play like D/P and at that point why not just play D/P, they could make DB be an exact copy of Shadow Shot and D/P would still be the superior PvP set.

 

Then again you are viewing this topic thru the lens of PvP and I'm doing thru the lens of PvE, we are bound to have fundamentaly different opinions.

 

As stated, we disagree because you speak strictly from a PvE perspective and you're assuming DB couldn't be given much better condi burst on that final hit to improve its sustained PvE damage.

 

In terms of dealing with competent opponents, D/D is borderline unplayable in the PvP modes pretty much solely because the kit has no mobility, for both engages, disengages, and actively works against stealth.  Understand the damage coefs for backstab and the likes are reduced by 30% and players can and still do focus/AoE bomb stealthed players, so a constant amount of pressure and disengage are required for the kit to function at all.

 

If for example, the skill was improved to increase the bleed stacks to something like 10 in PvE, it'd be better than current DB with good positioning/hitbox alignment and give you better evasion from AoE circles and the likes.  You'd spend a portion of time attacking/mashing a button less, but your numbers will stay pretty constant, and the build would be open to letting Shadowstep and Dash to be used offensively via repeated DB casts.

 

As for it being a fixed distance and not having control of the character... I'm afraid that's a bare-minimum level amount of player skill for the PvP modes, though, and something which should translate to PvE rather than everything being entirely rotation-based.  This opens up more ways to play PvE than just mash buttons in order and react to mechanics, and since it'd be a fast evade, allow the thief to get solid damage while responding to those mechanics with similar aggression.  Something like QP would also let a thief dual kit D/D and get disengage DB's into initiative recovery into an engage DB, and also combos with DE with Mark and M7 procs since the thief can start the fight at range to get an engage DB.  This opens up TONS of build and style options with a totally new approach to combat.

 

If the class is learned fully, it doesn't become a problem with control, either.  Reaper's Charge functioned this way in the HoT beta, and I had it mastered in under a day of practice, and most mobility mechanics in a lot of games act the same way (Unrelenting Shout in Skyrim, for a simple example).  Once you get familiar with spacing of where you'd end up from where you are, it effectively gives you full control of the character, just that the behavior is a bit different.

 

It's a necessity for D/D to be usable in the PvP modes.  Consider if they removed the bleed from DB with no compensation anywhere.  With mobility creep in the game, and ANet clearly having no intentions of nerfing any of it, the skill/kit is more or less totally worthless and beaten out by all the rest in pretty much every aspect.  D/D in the PvP modes is basically S/D in PvE from a performance perspective, except with even worse utility and no mobility at all.

[Sons.5493]

4 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

As stated, we disagree because you speak strictly from a PvE perspective and you're assuming DB couldn't be given much better condi burst on that final hit to improve its sustained PvE damage.

 

In terms of dealing with competent opponents, D/D is borderline unplayable in the PvP modes pretty much solely because the kit has no mobility, for both engages, disengages, and actively works against stealth.  Understand the damage coefs for backstab and the likes are reduced by 30% and players can and still do focus/AoE bomb stealthed players, so a constant amount of pressure and disengage are required for the kit to function at all.

 

If for example, the skill was improved to increase the bleed stacks to something like 10 in PvE, it'd be better than current DB with good positioning/hitbox alignment and give you better evasion from AoE circles and the likes.  You'd spend a portion of time attacking/mashing a button less, but your numbers will stay pretty constant, and the build would be open to letting Shadowstep and Dash to be used offensively via repeated DB casts.

 

As for it being a fixed distance and not having control of the character... I'm afraid that's a bare-minimum level amount of player skill for the PvP modes, though, and something which should translate to PvE rather than everything being entirely rotation-based.  This opens up more ways to play PvE than just mash buttons in order and react to mechanics, and since it'd be a fast evade, allow the thief to get solid damage while responding to those mechanics with similar aggression.  Something like QP would also let a thief dual kit D/D and get disengage DB's into initiative recovery into an engage DB, and also combos with DE with Mark and M7 procs since the thief can start the fight at range to get an engage DB.  This opens up TONS of build and style options with a totally new approach to combat.

 

If the class is learned fully, it doesn't become a problem with control, either.  Reaper's Charge functioned this way in the HoT beta, and I had it mastered in under a day of practice, and most mobility mechanics in a lot of games act the same way (Unrelenting Shout in Skyrim, for a simple example).  Once you get familiar with spacing of where you'd end up from where you are, it effectively gives you full control of the character, just that the behavior is a bit different.

 

It's a necessity for D/D to be usable in the PvP modes.  Consider if they removed the bleed from DB with no compensation anywhere.  With mobility creep in the game, and ANet clearly having no intentions of nerfing any of it, the skill/kit is more or less totally worthless and beaten out by all the rest in pretty much every aspect.  D/D in the PvP modes is basically S/D in PvE from a performance perspective, except with even worse utility and no mobility at all.

While it's true that im focusing more on PvE i do think my approach to DB would make the set better than what we have in PvP (at this point perhaps anything would), although i think it would change how you play the weapon set, perhaps making it more of a condition based set (which Anet seems to be pushing) rather than power, or maybe opening other roles for thief.

I do think however than giving all its power at the end would make the skill insanely clunky as a main dps skill. You would have to Dodge backwards > DB > Dodge backwards > DB, etc for your rotation and you have at most 4 dodges and you dont wanna waste them just to position so you can land your DB. This would destroy the weapon set in PvE.

There's so many fights near ledges, hell, even open world fights (which are still part of the game), fights where some mechanics just become super obnoxious to deal with. And I fully agree that skill matters a lot, knowing the fight, delaying a DB, positioning horitzontal to the target, dodging backwards from the target's hitbox to land slighly behind it for the next DB. There's a lot that influence how DB feels and performs and considering how most encounters are done I would just like a bit more control over where my character is going, specially when things like superspeed are involved.

To the very least the skill feels clunky and outdated and i would love any kind of improvement to it, and a Twist of fate-like behaviour would feel the best for me.  Maybe I'm missunderstanding what you are saying but u want db to be a fixed distance leap with an evade window that hits at the end?  How would that not fall into the same flaws that u pointed out on my post, predictable pathing, being bombed at the end? It just seems like you are asking for a long Heartseeker with an evade window.

[Dan.2940]

I have 5k hours clocked on thief and while I agree that DB is an odd skill, it’s also a situational move… It just simply shouldn’t be a part of your main DPS rotation aside from evading (mainly when you’re low or out of endurance) or aoeing mobs.

 

Thief abilities are all situational & I feel like each weapon kit does a good job depending on the situation you’re in. I feel like picking 1 skill in a weapon kit and deciding it needs a mechanical rework based off the fact that it doesn’t fit in certain situations for you is just not a good enough reason for doing so. Also feel like taking away its mobility is just making the kit more boring / stiff / & spammy.

 

Yes, the skill deals condi damage instead of straight power, again, that’s because not every ability in a kit should focus on just high dps output. The skill is useful for its utility and doesn’t need more damage, remember that thieves don’t have cooldowns, do we really need another low effort button to spam damage like heart seeker, but that ALSO has an evade while you’re dealing said damage? 
 

Yes, the move leaves you vulnerable when you land, especially in pvp situations, but that’s the gamble you take when you use the move, it’s the trade off to evading a potentially more lethal attack. 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Dan.2940

[Cynz.9437]

DB needed rework since launch, tbh. Condi attack on direct damage weapon set with evade that locks thief (squishy class) in long animation and puts in dangerous position just screams "bad design".

Edited July 21, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[Doggie.3184]

Quoting myself from May:

Quote

...wish they'd do to Death Blossom what they did with Weakening Charge and it wouldn't leap over them, making it more useable in all situations since our builds always want to focus on only 1-2 skills on a weapon and ignore the rest. The GW1 version was better. They could also just let us manually move during it to decide if we WANT to leap over them or not. And everything needs to be useable for power and condi builds, otherwise we have useless things on our bar.

 

[Genesis.5169]

The skill need movement for PvP you PvE people will just need to deal with it.

[Sons.5493]

19 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

The skill need movement for PvP you PvE people will just need to deal with it.

No one argues otherwise, just make it better mobility 🙂

 

[kash.9213]

7 hours ago, Sons.5493 said:

No one argues otherwise, just make it better mobility 🙂

 

I was confused by the title then also.

 

I'd take a forward Death's Retreat with whirl. It wouldn't have to be super far or quick but I would like to keep up with people. I'd also take an option to hold down and channel the current version for a beetle roll that maybe damages instead of evades, which again doesn't have to be super far. 

[Sons.5493]

1 minute ago, kash.9213 said:

I was confused by the title then also.

 

I'd take a forward Death's Retreat with whirl. It wouldn't have to be super far or quick but I would like to keep up with people. I'd also take an option to hold down and channel the current version for a beetle roll that maybe damages instead of evades, which again doesn't have to be super far. 

Any extra control over where I am going is a  big plus in my book

 

[Cynz.9437]

On 7/30/2021 at 3:16 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

The skill need movement for PvP you PvE people will just need to deal with it.

Hello, i consider myself pvp person and i find DB design terrible (you barely have any control where you land with it), even from PvP perspective. DB is also one of the main reasons why condi builds for thief get removed by balancing team from pvp pretty quickly.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[Genesis.5169]

23 minutes ago, Cynz.9437 said:

Hello, i consider myself pvp person and i find DB design terrible (you barely have any control where you land with it), even from PvP perspective. DB is also one of the main reasons why condi builds for thief get removed by balancing team from pvp pretty quickly.

 

I do agree with you to some extent but every classes condition builds got nerfed it wasn't a thief only issue. There is no way to have more control over it w/o removing its automation, if you remove it's automation it's gonna become a vastly weaken skill virtue of it not being easily accessible. But if you can figure out a way for us to get more control and still have it's ease of use i'll be 100% behind you.

 

I do 100% get where you coming from truly but its a trade off, movement based skills that aren't targeted aoe have that downside.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

Unpopular opinion. The skill shouldn't be changed from condi to strike. The rest of the dagger skills should be changed from strike to condi. We need a melee condi option, and the sword already fills strike. This also increases the synergy with existing traits.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Duke Blackrose.4981

[Cynz.9437]

19 hours ago, Duke Blackrose.4981 said:

Unpopular opinion. The skill shouldn't be changed from condi to strike. The rest of the dagger skills should be changed from strike to condi. We need a melee condi option, and the sword already fills strike. This also increases the synergy with existing traits.

Change iconic spells like backstab and CnD to condi spells? Truly bold choice. Not sure it would fit anywhere thematically tbh.