Defense Rework Required.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Fire Attunement.9835 and @Cal Cohen.2358, Defense is in dire need of some TLC. I realize that there may be something in the works to be released around the EoD release, but sooner would be better, even if it is just an announcement of the changes to come.

In the event that nothing has been planned yet for Defense, then guys you really need to start putting something together... There is a lot of commentary in the Omnibus thread that would be useful, but I'll put some suggestions here.

Warrior is in the place balance wise where it has to go into melee to do damage. We're like firefighters in that regard, we have to run into the blaze to do our job. Yes, we have high health and armor to help in that job, and yes we have lots of little heals to help in that job, but in the current balance meta we are still easily overwhelmed when trying to do that job. That is not okay. Warrior needs better tools to do what we need to do, and Defense being broken and neglected is part of the problem.

 

Cull The Weak: Keep the extra damage versus weakend foes, but remove the inflicting weakness on foes below 50% HP portion. In its place put "Burst attacks inflict 1s of weakness. Can only occur once per interval per target for multiple hit skills. interval 5s. Remove the CD.

 

Why this change? Warrior does not have good weakness uptime, which is an important condition to mitigate incoming damage. This change would allow us to inflict weakness, potentially in an AoE depending on the burst, to better help mitigate incoming damage not just for us but also out team. The duration may seem short, but there is no CD, so very aggressive players could potentially get high weakness uptime, but that is in turn vulnerable to interruption due to predictable gameplay.

 

Adrenal Health: This trait no longer requires to hit a target before activating.

 

Why this change? Because so much of warrior sustain is built around having to hit a foe to get the sustain. This is an onerous requirement upon sustain and is not something other classes are so pigeonholed into as warrior. That and this opens up gameplay options for have potential Elite Specialization mechanics that don't involve hitting a target.

Defy Pain: Remove the existing functionality. In it's place put "Gain protection and resolution (4s) when struck by an attack. 15s CD."

 

Why this change? The current trait apparently cannot coexist in PvE and competitive play, so something different, but in theme needs to replace it. This suggestion is very similar to existing traits on other classes and would be a very important change that would help warriors get onto the nodes covered in pulsing AoEs and do their job, which is to pressure and DPS.

 

Armored Attack: In addition to its previous effects this trait now grants precision equal to 10% of your toughness.

 

Why this change? Like Great Fortitude this is a dull trait that offers very little. This is merely a QOL update, but also to be a meaningful choice against Defy Pain.

 

Sundering Mace: Increase the CC duration on stuns, dazes, and knockdowns to 30% while wielding a mace. While not wielding a mace these durations are increased by 15%.

 

Why this change? Maces on warrior themselves are in need of a rework, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. Hence why this trait is not really ever taken. Maces should get a rework, but increasing and splitting the CC duration would give people a reason to take the trait without maces to increase the CC duration on things like Hammer or Bull's Charge.

 

Last Stand: Change this to: "Stances last 1s longer and have 20% reduced CD. Stances pulse vigor (1s), alacrity (1s), and resistance (1s) each interval (1s).

Why this change? Because the PvE and competitive versions cannot coexist. This change preserves duration increase, but as a flat amount of time. Our stances all used to be 4s, but some were reduced. This brings in a full 1s increment to the stances with less than 4s durations, along with a CD reduction. The boons are to help with damage mitigation, but also to keep to the theme of a 'Last Stand.'

 

Cleansing Ire: Remove the requirement to hit the target.

 

Why this change? Similar to Adrenal Health, too much of our sustain requires us to actively hit a target. That means the majority of our sustain is shut down but blocks, blinds, evades, and LOS. More so than any other class. This change would mean that upon activating a burst, but prior to the hit that conditions are removed.

 

If you do these changes, or something equivalent to them, you'll have given warrior the means to do its job. Get into the fight, and take the hits while pressuring a target. Warrior should excel at melee, that includes having to give it the staying power to stay in melee, even if it means fighting on top of multiple AOEs.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

You know the defense line is in trouble when I get more sustain from tactics than defense.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I rly hope they finally take a look at he work of warriors in this subforum. Ig we gotta see how other professions would react to these suggestions. 

 

And rly hoping for an eventual revamp on Arms, Rage Skills, Berserker and some tweaks between Tactics and Discipline (mostly regarding Banners) and ofc Banners themselves. 

 

Core can shine without having to buff Spellbreaker or Zerker and vice versa. 

 

The Omnibus thread should have been noticed by now right? 

 

EDIT: Also the suggestion made by @Doomfrost.5728 in the other thread on Hardened armor procing on a condition instead of a crit (which makes far more sense since resolution is not retaliation) would be a welcome change as a minor. 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Aaron.1294]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 Pls don't change adrenal health functionality... Like why would you even do dis?? This game actually needs more healing traits like dis "Reward for hitting enemy" ur change literally makes def warr even more passive than it is now. Also don't change cleansing Ire either

Edited May 26, 2021 by Aaron.1294

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

You know the defense line is in trouble when I get more sustain from tactics than defense.

No joke. You get so much more sustain from Tactics, even Strength than you do Defense, and Defense is supposed to be our personal sustain line.

 

 

1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I rly hope they finally take a look at he work of warriors in this subforum. Ig we gotta see how other professions would react to these suggestions. 

The other professions would QQ and have a collective aneurysm the moment we get sustain immune to their blind/block/evade cheese, so I really do not care what the other professions think.

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And rly hoping for an eventual revamp on Arms, Rage Skills, Berserker and some tweaks between Tactics and Discipline (mostly regarding Banners) and ofc Banners themselves. 

Me as well, but this thread itself is on Defense.

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Core can shine without having to buff Spellbreaker or Zerker and vice versa. 

And you do that with effects based on how much adrenaline is spent.

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The Omnibus thread should have been noticed by now right? 

 

Noticed? That is a given. Given credence? Now that is a separate thing altogether.

[Aaron.1294]

The only traits dat should be changed are : Defy Pain, armored attacks, hardened armor and Last stand. Maybe change cleansing Ire to receive 2 adrenaline points instead of 1 or 3 at most

Edited May 26, 2021 by Aaron.1294

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Aaron.1294 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 Pls don't change adrenal health functionality... Like why would you even do dis?? This game actually needs more healing traits like dis "Reward for hitting enemy" ur change literally makes def warr even more passive than it is now.

Except that way too much of warrior sustain is gated behind having to hit the enemy, which makes it susceptible to blinds, blocks, evades, and LOS which is something that the other professions are not hindered by. Why should we have to have that limitation, but no other profession?

 

You want sustain that is given by hitting an enemy? Great, go take Strength then.

 

The recommendation to Adrenal Health isn't even passive. You still have to get adrenaline, which is done *gasp* by already having successfully hitting someone outside of traits or utilities. What I am suggesting here is let me press my key to gain my sustain with the resource I've already built without having to pay the double tax of having to hit with it, which I already did in the first place to get the resource in question.

 

If anything it better rewards active gameplay.

 

 

[Aaron.1294]

What are you talking about? Do you really want warrior to become another obnoxious tank, because believe me - most ppl don't want that. And bursts have very short cd compared to other classes special skills, so we don't get double-taxed. Adrenal Health should reward you for being close to your enemy, not just using bluntly your burst abilities. Making easy class easier will cause more problems than good. Of course blinds are a counter to warr, who was supposed to have the most resistance uptime in the game. And if it got nerfed, why not making this boon more accessible to warr?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

55 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

What are you talking about? Do you really want warrior to become another obnoxious tank, because believe me - most ppl don't want that. And bursts have very short cd compared to other classes special skills, so we don't get double-taxed. Adrenal Health should reward you for being close to your enemy, not just using bluntly your burst abilities. Making easy class easier will cause more problems than good. Of course blinds are a counter to warr, who was supposed to have the most resistance uptime in the game. And if it got nerfed, why not making this boon more accessible to warr?

Hey man, we're obviously not going to agree on this, and that is fine. We're allowed to have different opinions.

 

That said, these changes aren't going to result in warrior becoming an obnoxious tank. More durable than it is currently, sure, but not obnoxious. Not like how Boonbeast was, or how necro is now.

My double tax comment is on the fact that Adrenal Health not only requires a resource, but it is sustain that requires a resource in addition to hitting an enemy. That is double taxing it, and is something that other classes don't have to deal with when using their sustain. The closest is necro, but they get Life Force as things die along with other passive means.

 

If Adrenal Health's purpose was to reward us for being close to an enemy then it would heal us while near people, and that would truly be obnoxious and passive gameplay. Good thing that isn't at all what I was suggesting then huh?

 

Easy class is easy in PvE, after all "Berserker has been in a great place with strong support, power, and condition builds that are successful in all content," but that makes it easy to play against in competitive play which is the problem.

You want more boons instead of making QOL changes to Adrenal Health and Cleansing Ire? 

 

Sure, then change Hardened Armor to Resistance instead of Resolution, add in Resolution to Dogged March along with the regeneration. But then that is boon bloat, and we want less boon bloat overall. I only mentioned boons for Defy Pain and Last Stand as lesser replacements for the lesser stance procs since these two traits cannot apparently coexist in PvE and Competitive.

[Aaron.1294]

@Lan Deathrider.5910I meant if you buff adrenal health like this, then , for the sake of balance, more and more utility skills become irrelevant. If you want this change it's OK, but keep in mind this would affect other traits/traitlines too. Right now defense is right now is literally a perfect bunker/bruiser traitline, because it requires you to constantly hit your enemy with your burst to tank more WHICH means it's not just another scrorge or bunker revenent. We should eliminate effortless, skilless and broken heals from the game in order to see actual damage. Buffing traits'skills like this just pushes meta into passive/non-aggressive freakshow

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

30 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910I meant if you buff adrenal health like this, then , for the sake of balance, more and more utility skills become irrelevant. If you want this change it's OK, but keep in mind this would affect other traits/traitlines too. Right now defense is right now is literally a perfect bunker/bruiser traitline, because it requires you to constantly hit your enemy with your burst to tank more WHICH means it's not just another scrorge or bunker revenent. We should eliminate effortless, skilless and broken heals from the game in order to see actual damage. Buffing traits'skills like this just pushes meta into passive/non-aggressive freakshow

Perfect? With several 300s CD traits? Really? What do you do in competitive play, sit in the Alpine BL duel spot and fight once every 5 minutes?

 

Getting a 300s HP regen for 15s after building 30 Adrenaline is no where on par with scourge or bunker revenant and is not in any way a broken heal. Allowing Adrenal Health and Cleansing Ire to proc without requiring a hit to connect will enforce aggressive behavior, because you'll be guaranteed their effect even if the opponent gets a block, blind, or evade off. You'll be less inclined to try and fish out the blocks, blinds, and evades and would be able to play LESS conservatively than the current meta.  

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

In my opinion all defensive burst traits should be on bursts being triggered, and offensive ones should be on connecting.

[Aaron.1294]

@Lan Deathrider.5910As I said Adrenal health is a perfect addition to warrior, didn't say anything about 300 sec cd traits...

But U can get adrenal health constantly if u gaining adrenaline which means u can get somehow "perma" 300 health per sec only if u're playing against bad player who doesn't know what to dodge.

 

So you want warrior to be another class with stupid/broken mechanics because of meta?? I think we want to fix the meta not make it worse...

 

If u give resistance to warr these problems won't occur...

 

That's the problem with literally every person on this forum, asking for buffs not even knowing how it's going to affect the meta... Everyone are just so selfish these days

Edited May 26, 2021 by Aaron.1294

[TheBravery.9615]

While not the perfect solution, a lot can be solved by... i don't know..

 

ROLL BACK THE 02/25/2020 PATCH

 

 

[Aaron.1294]

@TheBravery.9615I have bad news for you, warr was getting eaten by SA thief duos

Edited May 26, 2021 by Aaron.1294

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

In my opinion all defensive burst traits should be on bursts being triggered, and offensive ones should be on connecting.

Exactly. Thank you 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

52 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910As I said Adrenal health is a perfect addition to warrior, didn't say anything about 300 sec cd traits...

But U can get adrenal health constantly if u gaining adrenaline which means u can get somehow "perma" 300 health per sec only if u're playing against bad player who doesn't know what to dodge.

 

So you want warrior to be another class with stupid/broken mechanics because of meta?? I think we want to fix the meta not make it worse...

 

If u give resistance to warr these problems won't occur...

 

That's the problem with literally every person on this forum, asking for buffs not even knowing how it's going to affect the meta... Everyone are just so selfish these days

The fact that you think 300 HP/second healing being made more easily available would be broken and would worsen the meta says a great deal.

 

But you are right that giving warrior more resistance would be a good thing, but more too much boon access is part of this meta's problem in general.

 

Making Cleansing Ire activate without needing a hit to connect reduces the need for such boons to begin with. That is a better approach.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I mean if you want resistance, may as well take healing sig, trait it and spam it to generate ferocity bonus, while keeping a decent uptime of resistance from spamming it 😂

 

Just tried that, only for the ferocity, not worth having for the passive or the active.

 

I digress though, warrior would lose no flavor if the ^ above statements on bursts were applied. On the contrary they improve gameplay. Do you want a defensive burst skill to proc before engaging, or do you want to save it for a big hit and get the goodies from and offensive variant? Or maybe both in one go?

 

I see no issues there, and I see nothing, 0, not a single anything, on how these suggested changes would ruin the meta...

 

Exaggeration. We are not trapper dragonhunters, we are not staff mirages, we are not renegades, we are not scourges. We are warriors with the least diversity and unique play in endgame content.

 

[TheBravery.9615]

having defensive traits proc on the condition that you fill a bar with adrenaline isn't a bad idea. It still requires you to expend your burst in order to continue filling up with adrenaline.

[Aaron.1294]

@Lan Deathrider.5910Just saying steadfast rejuvenation...

[Choppy.4183]

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

In my opinion all defensive burst traits should be on bursts being triggered, and offensive ones should be on connecting.

 

I preferred the old system that Anet abandoned, where warriors had to make strategic choices about spending adren and holding it. Their philosophy shifted to having to spend and connect to get a benefit, but traits like Berserkers Power used to give standing buffs based on your stored adren.

[TheBravery.9615]

2 minutes ago, Choppy.4183 said:

 

I preferred the old system that Anet abandoned, where warriors had to make strategic choices about spending adren and holding it. Their philosophy shifted to having to spend and connect to get a benefit, but traits like Berserkers Power used to give standing buffs based on your stored adren.

no, the old systems sucked because both berserkers power and adrenal health is based on adrenaline levels built up. It punishes the warrior to use the burst attack.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

11 minutes ago, TheBravery.9615 said:

no, the old systems sucked because both berserkers power and adrenal health is based on adrenaline levels built up. It punishes the warrior to use the burst attack.

I'm with you on that, it basically made our entire adrenaline mechanic pointless, basically back then warrior "had no mechanic" because we were punished for using it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

48 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910Just saying steadfast rejuvenation...

And that gives you problems?

 

8 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

I'm with you on that, it basically made our entire adrenaline mechanic pointless, basically back then warrior "had no mechanic" because we were punished for using it.

Yeah, and you also had deep strikes giving precision per unused signet so you had all 5 signets up and never used you utility bar, so warrior was just spamming weapon skills.

 

Sad thing is it worked.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And that gives you problems?

 

Yeah, and you also had deep strikes giving precision per unused signet so you had all 5 signets up and never used you utility bar, so warrior was just spamming weapon skills.

 

Sad thing is it worked.

Yeah, warrior basically was just weapon skills with other buttons that you were punished for using.