A call out to the people who decide about links in EU for upcomming relink on Friday.

[Leaa.2943]

Well a bit more then a year ago EU WvW had a lot of full and high populated servers. For each relink Arena Net is crashing EU even more. For us who been here for years and years it is very obviouse that Anet do not understand WvW in EU which result in bleeding out servers and people leaving. This was why i wrote this post in the first place because if you look at how NA looks now server wise https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World  that is how EU looked back then. 

 

For each relink it goes in to a worse state then the one before and my call out was not me whining it was me trying to get attention from Anet and make the realise they can't go on like this. It will be nothing left on EU if each relink turns out worse then the one before. At this point there are no secrets about servers. We all know what each server is capable of and what they need and if they have a comuntiy or not and what servers that should not be paried with eachother. We know this and Arena Net should know this too but for now it feels like a Dartboard and the three that you miss wont get a link at all. You have to put in more effort then this or WvW in EU wont hold for much longer. 

[Zyreva.1078]

26 minutes ago, Turgon.2091 said:

 

If there were more people on every servers it wouldn't be like that.

There will never be enough players on every server as long so many decide to stack on one.

 

26 minutes ago, Turgon.2091 said:

 

 

Maybe if everyone didn't go to the same server, the queue would be shorter. Here I am talking about an increase in the global population of the WvW and we need it.

Even tonight at prime time,  reset / relink, there is almost no queue on Dzago/fow and same thing  on Deso.

Prime-time will always have much higher population than other times, there is no way arround that.

I had queues on every map tonight btw ...

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 please read what u wrote. alike it makes no sense. it's about the player quality destribution mostly. like, try to stack all "good" players, like let's say the global top 400 killcounts of EU on a few servers, they'd constantly annihilate the rest of the population with ease

 

it isn't only a sheer numbers game, unless u look at ppt, which is only a numbers and activity game. but yeah, ppt is just about flipping objectives till u get bored of it. for normal players this happens after a few months, and the oldest ones in the format play since many years.

 

and @Turgon.2091 .. no queues are more of a blessing than anything else. more often than not, if u have a queued map there's just 15 afkers and 15-25 more people doing random crap. and u sit there with a small zerg and cannot even swap classes without waiting for the queue to pop NICE FUN GREAT DESIGN , eh

 

also.. dzago + fow are from what i remember pretty stacked?

[Zyreva.1078]

On 5/29/2021 at 2:03 AM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 please read what u wrote. alike it makes no sense. it's about the player quality destribution mostly. like, try to stack all "good" players, like let's say the global top 400 killcounts of EU on a few servers, they'd constantly annihilate the rest of the population with ease

 

Yes, i'm sure having one server run arround with a map blob while both others have like 15 players combined is totally an issue with player quality distribution.

 

Please read what i wrote, your response makes no sense ...

[KrHome.1920]

On 5/29/2021 at 2:03 AM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

it's about the player quality destribution mostly.

 

I say:

The game has never been in a state where the numbers are balanced enough that skill starts to matter.

 

Experiment:

Our server was linked to drakkar and is now linked to WSR. While we lost each balanced encounter against dzago with the drakkar link last week, we are wiping the floor with them this week even outnumbered. That's a massive difference. We have no queues except EBG. If we win this week, then skill matters more than numbers at least to some extent and you have been proven right.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

If we win this week, then skill matters more than numbers at least to some extent and you have been proven right.

We already know it does.

 

People keep forgetting that the same player which can die in a 1v1 against an equally skilled player on an equally good build (or counter-build) can still realisiticly win 1v2 or 1v3 against other less skilled players with worse builds. That still scales with numbers. At some point numbers in a specific situation win (dont think I've seen a 1v10 complete victory just yet) but skill will technically always matter more since the global player limits on the maps is the same for all sides. Numbers and skill is preferably of course but that will always vary.

 

Literally every day of WvW prove this.

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[KrHome.1920]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

We already know it does.

 

People keep forgetting that the same player which can die in a 1v1 against an equally skilled player on an equally good build (or counter-build) can still realisiticly win 1v2 or 1v3 against other less skilled players with worse builds. That still scales with numbers. At some point numbers in a specific situation win (dont think I've seen a 1v10 complete victory just yet) but skill will technically always matter more since the global player limits on the maps is the same for all sides. Numbers and skill is preferably of course but that will always vary.

 

Literally every day of WvW prove this.

 

 

You ignore my main point in your answer, which is coverage. Baruch, Gandara and Piken proved for years that coverage has a much bigger impact than skill. And coverage is tied to numbers.

 

Our link is doing good at the moment, despite we are having only one queued map. We will see whether this continues during the week. I have my doubts.

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@KrHome.1920 your point is just invalid, since u see ppt as the winning factor, if i understood this correctly.

 

and yeah, its kinda not new that less players with good comp can destroy more players with random stuff.

 

and the thing dawdler described works not only for smallscale, also 30 can mess up 50... mainly depending on builds and experience of players. a fully 70 zoneblob of rookies would get annihilated by 30 elite players with a good comp basically. like, you push fast, set a big bomb inside them, and the panic and either just die in the bomb ur just run instead of dropping any dmg on you.

 

numbers can get even quite fast, if one group has just a better pacing and close quarter movement. that's how small zergs destroy blobs, happens also every day.  people who act as if numbers always and only count, are just not familiar enough with the format they critizise

[Deniara Devious.3948]

Desolation numbers get greatly exaggerated in threads like this. It is mostly a matter of which times you are playing.

Night time coverage matter the most for points per tick as there is least amount of players present. Desolation has a good coverage already long time ago and most our players care about points per tick, thus the play style, which should not punished.

German tier1 servers generally come with a early morning zerg 25-35 and pvds pretty much everything.  We literally have about 4 defenders vs 25+ enemies. This can lead to outnumbered "buff" for Desolation at EBG and home borderlands at same time. I can imagine at night time the enemy servers are facing the same.

I have said this many times: There simply isn't enough players for 5 tiers in EU. Desolation is rank #1 and we have basically 1 queue to 1 map in prime time and no queues at other times during weekdays. It means that even for tier1 if the number of players would increase, there would still be open maps.

Some servers should be merged or least give us just 4 tiers. Then all the servers can have a link and some will have 2.

Ayna
Desolation since 2012-
 

[Karagee.6830]

On 5/27/2021 at 7:52 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

I dunno about EU situation, so I won't comment deeply on that, I just think the language barrier holds back some servers from being linked, especially if a super link will be created, which had happened a few times on NA with BG getting links when they probably shouldn't have.

That must be why they linked English and French/German speaking servers for a long time with NO issue whatsoever. In EU we had a situation with the main server AND its linked server both outnumbering other servers on their own for long stretches of the day in T1. Both of these 2 servers have been given another link (ironically, one has now a French link and the other a German link) and they still outnumber others in their current matchups.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

On 5/30/2021 at 1:28 PM, KrHome.1920 said:

 

I say:

The game has never been in a state where the numbers are balanced enough that skill starts to matter.

 

Experiment:

Our server was linked to drakkar and is now linked to WSR. While we lost each balanced encounter against dzago with the drakkar link last week, we are wiping the floor with them this week even outnumbered. That's a massive difference. We have no queues except EBG. If we win this week, then skill matters more than numbers at least to some extent and you have been proven right.

WSR are trash skill-wise. You probably only win now because you greatly outnumber them, while last week you got farmed because numbers were closer.

[Karagee.6830]

9 hours ago, Deniara Devious.3948 said:

Desolation numbers get greatly exaggerated in threads like this. It is mostly a matter of which times you are playing.

Night time coverage matter the most for points per tick as there is least amount of players present. Desolation has a good coverage already long time ago and most our players care about points per tick, thus the play style, which should not punished.

German tier1 servers generally come with a early morning zerg 25-35 and pvds pretty much everything.  We literally have about 4 defenders vs 25+ enemies. This can lead to outnumbered "buff" for Desolation at EBG and home borderlands at same time. I can imagine at night time the enemy servers are facing the same.

I have said this many times: There simply isn't enough players for 5 tiers in EU. Desolation is rank #1 and we have basically 1 queue to 1 map in prime time and no queues at other times during weekdays. It means that even for tier1 if the number of players would increase, there would still be open maps.

Some servers should be merged or least give us just 4 tiers. Then all the servers can have a link and some will have 2.

Ayna
Desolation since 2012-
 

Enough with this bs. Desolation has won EVERY morning skirmish for nearly 2 months. The only 4-ish skirmishes you came second in during last relink were all at prime-time (evening, early night) after reset or weekend, because when all maps are full and you don't start from a 200 tick advantage with waypoints everywhere, you can lose despite farming alts and creating queues for opponent servers (to farm your alts).

[Karagee.6830]

14 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

@KrHome.1920 your point is just invalid, since u see ppt as the winning factor, if i understood this correctly.

 

and yeah, its kinda not new that less players with good comp can destroy more players with random stuff.

 

and the thing dawdler described works not only for smallscale, also 30 can mess up 50... mainly depending on builds and experience of players. a fully 70 zoneblob of rookies would get annihilated by 30 elite players with a good comp basically. like, you push fast, set a big bomb inside them, and the panic and either just die in the bomb ur just run instead of dropping any dmg on you.

 

numbers can get even quite fast, if one group has just a better pacing and close quarter movement. that's how small zergs destroy blobs, happens also every day.  people who act as if numbers always and only count, are just not familiar enough with the format they critizise

This is fool's gold. The only people who can bust blobs are guilds. The majority of medium to large groups in WvW are not guild zergs actively looking for loot bags, they are open tags. So if a 30 man open tag meets a 50 man open tag they are not going to win any fight. Guild blob busters are the exception not the norm.

 

Now if the 30 man group had some kind of bonus from the Outnumbered buff (as in no downed state for the opponents OR at least some stat buff) then I'd agree things would be generally more balanced. And btw, just to be clear, we've had outnumbered in groups of 30+ fighting Deso/WSR.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Karagee.6830

[Pharaohz.3470]

53 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Enough with this bs. Desolation has won EVERY morning skirmish for nearly 2 months.

 

Because all the bandwagonner went back to wsr when it was linked with deso. Stop blaming them for nothing.

And both server were open first week, didnt check after that so you add the bandwagonner + all alt account = Huge amount of players. That's why they won every skimirsh. And it was inevitable since all the other servers are almost dead or playing only at prime time for 3 hours.

We will always end up with a full server + full link because people want to play during the day as well and not on a dead server which only plays at prime time.

[Karagee.6830]

54 minutes ago, Turgon.2091 said:

We will always end up with a full server + full link because people want to play during the day as well and not on a dead server which only plays at prime time.

What are you on right now? This guy claimed Deso/WSR were outnumbered lol. NO server ever has won that amount of skirmishes in a row no matter how stacked they were. They went 84-0-0 week after week after week after week irrespective of who the opponents were and you defend bs claims from that guy that they were somehow outnumbered despite ticking 250-300 EVERY morning AND keeping pretty much every T3 keep they had on other servers' borderlands, including german servers? It's all laughable really, if not sad, when accounting for the facts and what really happened in the last 2 months.

 

Blaming them for nothing? Are you serious? Consider this for context. One night we are ticking +40 over Deso/WSR as we flipped a few T3 keeps including their T3 sm castle. In the next 20 minutes we annihilate a large Deso/WSR blob 3 or 4 times and keep the ppt advantage around +40. Despite the ppt advantage and despite all the points from the kills we end up -200 points over those 20 minutes. Only when you understand these people are farming alts and when you got a queue against them is because they have alts on your server that they use to farm kills, not because of real participation on your side, only then it makes sense. And it's not like I haven't seen a few times the groups of people from the same guild, but different servers hanging out in quiet areas in WvW. It's very unfortunate that the report system for this kind of behaviour is simply not there.

 

Apart from the bs claims and despicable behaviour from people on these 2 servers (Deso and WSR),  it's mind boggling they both got a link. Given their WvW participation, both Deso and WSR should have been locked and with no link at last reset.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Karagee.6830

[Deniara Devious.3948]

I get that some people truly hate Desolation, but inventing theories that we have used alt accounts on other servers and then just kill farmed them is a serious allegation without a proof.

WSR was stacked and was the ideal server pair for Desolation as they provide fighting guilds and Desolation provides PuGs, who do the Points-per-Tick and scouting. That also almost perfectly complemented time zones.

Some of you Deso haters must have an alt account at Desolation. Show me the "big" queues during weekdays now that we are NOT linked with WSR. Today I only saw short queue to 1 map at time and most of the time, even in prime we had no queue to any of the 4 maps.

It is NOT healthy for any game to start punishing servers "they don't deserve any link for xxx amount". The WvWvW communities of many servers have already suffered too much and been fractured. Yes, this means that Gandara and SFR would also deserve a link.

Like I said many times: there is NOT enough players for 5 EU tiers. Just delete 1 tier and then with 4 tiers everybody can get a link and some servers get 2 links.
 

[Pharaohz.3470]

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

What are you on right now?

Well i never said deso/wsr was outnumbered. It was overstacked full of bandwagonner + alt account.

I don't include wsr/deso link as dead server which only plays at prime time, but all the other servers. If they were ticking high is because all the servers that went T1 were dead. Sorry but playing only at prime time = Dead server. And Dzago/fow dodged the matchup same for Fsp / Gandara. Abaddon dead serv, riverside dead serv. (From last relink, maybe things changed now)

When i said "We will always end up with a full server + full link because people want to play during the day as well and not on a dead server which only plays at prime time.  " I speak in general, if it's not deso or wsr it will be another one. We already seen that before.

 

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

when you understand these people are farming alts and when you got a queue against them is because they have alts on your server that they use to farm kills, not because of real participation on your side, only then it makes sense

 

A delusional conspiracy theory lol

 

[Karagee.6830]

12 hours ago, Turgon.2091 said:

Well i never said deso/wsr was outnumbered. It was overstacked full of bandwagonner + alt account.

I don't include wsr/deso link as dead server which only plays at prime time, but all the other servers. If they were ticking high is because all the servers that went T1 were dead. Sorry but playing only at prime time = Dead server. And Dzago/fow dodged the matchup same for Fsp / Gandara. Abaddon dead serv, riverside dead serv. (From last relink, maybe things changed now)

When i said "We will always end up with a full server + full link because people want to play during the day as well and not on a dead server which only plays at prime time.  " I speak in general, if it's not deso or wsr it will be another one. We already seen that before.

 

 

A delusional conspiracy theory lol

 

Lol someone has reading comprehension issues or needs to turn on her brain here. The guy I replied to said Deso/WSR were outnumbered in the morning. That was before you poor little delicate flower decided to intervene in that discussion.

 

Yeah kill farming is a delusion just like players jumping inside towers from their mounts repeatedly in front of 40 people. Just because you can't understand things, it doesn't mean they aren't true. This is not opinion but as close to a fact as it can be: 3 people from my server+1 from Desolation, same guild, hiding away. I only discovered them by chance. Only the Desolation guy is moving. I whisper and talk to the people from my server: no reply. The Deso player is just moving around but not attacking me. So sure enough I kill the guy, the other guys from my server say nothing and do not move. 4 minutes later same story. Explain to all of us in your own words why multiple people from the same guild would hide in a place difficult to see on Desolation's borderland quite close to our server spawning point. Try and come up with a reasonable explanation of why multiple completely unresponsive players would just be sitting there hiding and hanging around with zero participation. I have no hard proof because obviously these people are not going to reply ever, but considering what we've seen scoring wise, it's safe to say this behaviour is not isolated among Desolation and WSR players. It's not the first time in the last 2 months I come across this.

[Voltekka.2375]

On 5/31/2021 at 10:22 AM, Deniara Devious.3948 said:

Desolation numbers get greatly exaggerated in threads like this. It is mostly a matter of which times you are playing.

Night time coverage matter the most for points per tick as there is least amount of players present. Desolation has a good coverage already long time ago and most our players care about points per tick, thus the play style, which should not punished.

German tier1 servers generally come with a early morning zerg 25-35 and pvds pretty much everything.  We literally have about 4 defenders vs 25+ enemies. This can lead to outnumbered "buff" for Desolation at EBG and home borderlands at same time. I can imagine at night time the enemy servers are facing the same.

I have said this many times: There simply isn't enough players for 5 tiers in EU. Desolation is rank #1 and we have basically 1 queue to 1 map in prime time and no queues at other times during weekdays. It means that even for tier1 if the number of players would increase, there would still be open maps.

Some servers should be merged or least give us just 4 tiers. Then all the servers can have a link and some will have 2.

Ayna
Desolation since 2012-
 

"Greatly exaggerated" yeah, no. Just no. 

[Karagee.6830]

I mean, since there is no way to report alt farming, spying etc and since Deso and possibly WSR have shown to be adept at this, I think the only feasible solution here is to make a bunch of FTP accounts on desolation as soon as it opens and then have them permanently logged in on their home bl or ebg. Do as many as your machine is capable of handling, but since I personally know people soloing T4 fractals together with alt accounts it shouldn't be a problem to have at least 4 or 5.

 

It will be interesting to see the moaning when your alts take spots for actual players during prime time, when there is no outnumbered buff although the the numbers are obviously lopsided, not to mention the added bonus from seeing the team and map chats so that you can have your own blobs and zerg move there in a timely fashion. Anyway, since they do this regularly, we all should do the same and then dismiss their 'conspiracy theories'. Gonna start with WSR, which inexplicably has only 'very high' population and is currently open.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Karagee.6830

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Karagee.6830ur just too new to the format apparently. u find these afk piphunters on every server... ain't new; its 10-15 players often. map caps are 70~ ... and alone all this talk about winning ppt skirmish is just big lol. you gain nothing for that.

 

if you have been against Deso/WSR last matchup and outnumbered, it means not only they but also the other server had way more numbers than yours and the respective map (otherwise you had no outnumbered)... also deso WSR was stuck in tier one, with 2 servers that tried to drop bc they could not provide the number-coverage for ppt-wars apparently. and would also lose during prime time i suppose? my previous link with Ring of Fire - Gunnars Hold fought some of the "t1 outdrops"... no wonder deso/wsr had a chill time even during prime. and our link even had enough inexperienced bandwagoners on it...

 

bc if you'd win any equal fights, they had not won all the skirmishes. so that is a proof it was not only about numbers.

 

no good player cares about ppt enough to make alt accounts just for hourlong-afking around on an "enemy" servers' spawn, seriously. even less likely to "spy".

 

i was on deso till february. we been unlinked twice in half a year there. effectively, then we'd be often enough outnumbered. the server pop for weird reasons never drops below veryhigh on it. yet we ran only with 30-35 people groups there. but deso has a lot alt accounts from other servers' players, or had.

 

seems to be decreasing even due to the pretty bad stance of the servers itself. too many ppters and newbies like other known problematic servers (which by now are... most existing servers, but esp stuff like Piken or Baruch or the german ones) with too much cloud and ppt focus mess up the game and balance heavily.

[Karagee.6830]

Quote

all this talk about winning ppt skirmish is just big lol. you gain nothing for that

What gave you the impression I thought otherwise? I just dispute the fact that Desolation people think they were not absurdly stacked when they won 400 skirmishes in a row. Ppt (and score) is largely an indication of participation, if it wasn't enough that a 10 man groups have to deal with 30-40 people blobs on every map, constant 300-60-40 ppt scores will tell you all you need to know.

 

Quote

if you have been against Deso/WSR last matchup and outnumbered, it means not only they but also the other server had way more numbers than yours and the respective map (otherwise you had no outnumbered)

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about here. We had outnumbered on maps with zero presence from the third server. As in: they had 1 camp, maybe a few roamers if any. And this is not the case of a 5 or 10 minute outnumbered where a blob just moves to cap something quickly or to defend, it was hours of consecutive outnumbered on the same map (which is where I spend most of my time: outnumbered maps).

 

Quote

 and would also lose during prime time i suppose? 

Not sure what you are on about, but it must be real good. When every fight you are outnumbered at least 2:1 in prime time and you have no queues on any map, what exactly do you expect genius? That was the situation with Deso/WSR, the participation was so disproportionate every week compared to past T1 matchups that it was lopsided even in the evening. The only times this didn't happen was at reset for a few hours and suprise, suprise, Deso/WSR did in fact end up 3rd (the only couple of 3rd places in 2 months) after reset on WvW bonus week when all the maps were actually full for each T1 server the whole evening.

 

Quote

bc if you'd win any equal fights, they had not won all the skirmishes. so that is a proof it was not only about numbers.

there were almost never any equal fights, you don't seem to grasp this simple fact. The difference in numbers was at every hour of the day and on every map. At the very least Desolation had enough people on borderlands that a) didn't have outnumbered (we can all see the buffs) and b) were enough to hold T3 keeps there until blobs arrived or they filled the map with defenders

 

Quote

no good player cares about ppt enough to make alt accounts just for hourlong-afking around on an "enemy" servers' spawn, seriously. even less likely to "spy".

I agree with this statement, which is probably why you Deso/WSR people do it: lack of 'good players'. The same 40 man blobs hopping the same maps you switch to and the total lack of scouts is in no way an indication of that!

 

Quote

i was on deso till february. we been unlinked twice in half a year there. effectively, then we'd be often enough outnumbered. the server pop for weird reasons never drops below veryhigh on it. yet we ran only with 30-35 people groups there. but deso has a lot alt accounts from other servers' players, or had.

Your whining would perhaps draw some pity or compassion, if you didn't also have Gandara with more unlinked resets than Desolation AND permanently full for years and through all of those periods.

 

Quote

too much cloud and ppt focus mess up the game and balance heavily.

And here is where you go a full 360 and decide that it's in fact a problem and messes up the game and balance lol. Good job.

 

Oh I see: you were the joker who actually wrote that 30 open tag random people (with good builds) can actually bust 50 open tag random people (presumably with equally good builds), lol. Yeah well, puts what you say into perspective. Seems like you are playing a different game than everyone else, where there are 30 man guild teams everywhere going after blobs, when a) those groups are far less common than open tags and b) those groups have no interest in fighting 50 man open tags, because understandably they are more interested in smaller scale gvg

Edited June 1, 2021 by Karagee.6830

[Leaa.2943]

So relink happen and where you would not think it could be worse, it is now worse. Gandara, SFR and BB without a link. SFR is already dropping down to tier 5 and i mean the spectacle of Anet placing Gandara in tier 1 without a link and keep it closed i don't even know where to start on that one. Was links decided due to the event PvE week before relink? Because both SFR and Gandara do not have the population to keep us close. And why do you even keep servers closed when they have no link. How is that even a defendble action?

 

Looking at the rest of the servers and tiers, ALL of those matches are so far off from eachother in points that i again ask how do you make the choices in EU? Can we get some sort of response to that because it is so far off from eachother and so obviouse that hosts should have been placed differently to make a active WvW but it wasn't. 

 

My first post was a cry for attention to make Anet aware of EU is being trashed to a point where we get thinner and thinner and i was hoping that someone would take their time and actually look at why it is looking this way, when about a year back it looked so much better. Then for each link period EU is just crashin down. 

 

TALK TO US!

 

[Pharaohz.3470]

18 days later, playing on 3 different tier with my alts and nothing changed, EU WvW DEAD all daylong.

Prime time joke 2h of sleepy action and /logoff.

[RisingDaewn.8703]

Yeah T1 EU is a joke tbh, not as much action as you would expect guild or open tag wise, lots of tryhard ppt as usual. We got doubled pushed as a guild on Wednesday and won a couple of fights against both though, so I guess that's something.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by CrimsonNeonite.1048