Sustain in PvE - Power Weaver and Tempest - Suggestions

[SeTect.5918]

Well my problem with Elementalist is that it has poor sustain when you play power. So i got some suggestions, please tell me what you think about this.

Here is my wishlist:

Spec: Air
Stormsoul: This trait now also heals you by 500 when you disable a foe. Less in PvP and WvW.

Spec: Arcane
Arcane Restoration: Base heal increased from 330 to 400 in PvE only.

Elite spec: Tempest
Elemental Bastion: Base heal increased from 522 to 700 in PvE only.

Elite spec: Weaver
Elemental Refreshment: Base barrier increased from 434 to 634 in PvE only.
Invigorating Strikes: Base barrier increased from 894 to 1,000 in PvE only.


Focus skills:
Obsidian Flesh: This skill needs total rework.


There could also be better ways to buff the sustain of power Elementalist. Because Condi Weaver and Tempest could overperform due to these changes.

All of the changes are just wishes and suggestions, its obvious that they will not copy and paste them exactly like that if it comes to an update.


Dont be afraid to tell me your opinion and have a nice day!

Edited May 29, 2021 by SeTect.5918
Suggestions edit for a smaller sustain increase than before

[Downstate.4697]

Slapping heals on random traits isnt a solution. If anything ele needs more consistant damage.

[Touchme.1097]

Ele is one of those professions full of weak attacks that need to be chained as soon as they come off cooldown with a very limited number of strong attacks.

Damage wise, if it was realistic to have all boons 100% of the time it would be decent as DPS, unfortunately it is strongly dependant on alacrity and power builds are also affected by quickness and neither of the two are provided by this profession. 

If I was the lead designer of the Elementalist profession I would rework it completely as I have suggested in my rework thread not long time ago, I would make it less frustrating to play and I would definitely give Elementalist alacrity.

There are only two professions who can provide it, on the other hand quickness can be generated by a lot of professions now, we definitely need Ele to be an alacrity provider as it is a key boon for it and also to promote diversity allowing this profession to be played in modes where it shines the most.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Touchme.1097

[Infusion.7149]

If you're having a lot of trouble you can run marauder gear with discretize's fractal tempest (uses water traitline). If they want tempest to be more viable they can lower RNG on lightning orb.

Weaver is in a problem spot because the strongest weapon is sword which is fully melee and you can't swap weapon in combat.

[AliamRationem.5172]

When you talk about great solo play builds for taking on tough challenges, condi renegade and scourge are usually near the top of the list.  But elementalist has a tanky condi build that can solo legendaries and all that, too: sword weaver.  The only thing really holding it back isn't lack of sustain but the lack of any range capability.  On bosses where this isn't an issue, they are right up there in damage and sustain with the very best builds.

 

That's not to say that ele doesn't have baseline sustain issues or couldn't be improved in other ways.  But if you need a great solo play build with amazing sustain and strong damage, ele has it.  As with any class, you just have to play the right builds.

[SeTect.5918]

8 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Ele is one of those professions full of weak attacks that need to be chained as soon as they come off cooldown with a very limited number of strong attacks.

Damage wise, if it was realistic to have all boons 100% of the time it would be decent as DPS, unfortunately it is strongly dependant on alacrity and power builds are also affected by quickness and neither of the two are provided by this profession. 

If I was the lead designer of the Elementalist profession I would rework it completely as I have suggested in my rework thread not long time ago, I would make it less frustrating to play and I would definitely give Elementalist alacrity.

There are only two professions who can provide it, on the other hand quickness can be generated by a lot of professions now, we definitely need Ele to be an alacrity provider as it is a key boon for it and also to promote diversity allowing this profession to be played in modes where it shines the most.

Well do you really think they will buff the damage of ele after they nerfed it on may 11 update?
But yea i support your idea because ele has a very low boon uptime and needs some offensive boons or something.
But also a heal rework in PvE would not be bad in my eyes. It is just not fair that other classes can do far better with having a far easier build. For example: i solo the champion of balthasar in auric basin with Herald without even dodging 1 time. I just have to press random skills and put some ccs when he want to do his 1 hit. Also as Mirage you just have to spam dodge, 1, and some weapon swaps and u ll be invulnerable all the time. Scourge has 10000000 more barrier then weaver and has even better heals. And due to the may 11 update the damage is almost the same. Of course ele can solo it too if u play good, but i am not happy what other classes can do with 1% of the work that ele has to do.

But as i said, i also support your idea because ele has over 20 weapon skills if u have just 1 weapon set but still it comes to decent reloads, so alac or something would be helpful, but on which skills would u do it so it makes sense? quickness would maybe fit to fire or air. Alac to Arcane maybe?

I ll edit my "Wishlist" a bit tho

Edited May 29, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[SeTect.5918]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you're having a lot of trouble you can run marauder gear with discretize's fractal tempest (uses water traitline). If they want tempest to be more viable they can lower RNG on lightning orb.

Weaver is in a problem spot because the strongest weapon is sword which is fully melee and you can't swap weapon in combat.

With Water spec you will use a lot of damage and also marauder wont help you to solo hard bosses. You have nearly 0 heals out of water spec with ele. Take a look to Revenant, they heal 200 each second by battle scars, under 50% its 400. And if u inflict vulnerability to enemies you get even more battle scars. Is that balance?

Weaver uses Sword yes, Warrior uses greatsword and double axe or something and still has less problems than weaver, both are melee classes.

I ll edit my "Wishlist" now so it comes to a fairer patch and not like i 1st wanted it to be.

Edited May 29, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[SeTect.5918]

3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

When you talk about great solo play builds for taking on tough challenges, condi renegade and scourge are usually near the top of the list.  But elementalist has a tanky condi build that can solo legendaries and all that, too: sword weaver.  The only thing really holding it back isn't lack of sustain but the lack of any range capability.  On bosses where this isn't an issue, they are right up there in damage and sustain with the very best builds.

 

That's not to say that ele doesn't have baseline sustain issues or couldn't be improved in other ways.  But if you need a great solo play build with amazing sustain and strong damage, ele has it.  As with any class, you just have to play the right builds.

Why range capability? You can use scepter or staff (as power). Warrior and Herald doing by far better with also having just a melee weapon.
Of course also ele can get good sustain with the right build but that's not the issue. The issue is, that ele has one of the hardest rotations and nearly every class is doing better in soloing.
Also the barrier won't really help you. Its quite low compared to scrapper or scourge. And they even can heal better than ele even if they would not have barrier. Scourge got a buff on may 11 update and is high up on the benchmark list now. I know u cant compare classes by benchmarks if its in solo gameplay but scourge and ele has both poor boon uptimes so these two you can actually compare. Scourge has not bad damage anymore. Also Scrapper got more quickness uptime, which also means more barrier since you get barrier based on damage.
Ele if course has good sustain but nearly every other class does better with an easier rotation.
And if ele has also the ability to get good sustain it doesnt mean it shouldnt get more because every class has the ability to get good sustain, but not all do the same result.
It is not the problem that i play a bad build or something but ele really needs better ways to get the ability to solo content easier than it is at the moment.

However the "Wishlist" will get edited now so it comes to a fairer patch and not as i wanted it to be first.

Edited May 29, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[mindcircus.1506]

16 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

As most of us maybe know, Elementalist is not really good in solo content in case of sustain even if the rotation is one of the hardest. Maybe it is even the worst class for Solo content even if i am not sure about that.

As a soloist, Trailblazers Condi Weaver and Tempest are near the top in terms of durability.

Traiting Written in Stone from Earth and the Signet as your heal will grant minor small self sustain . This and the Trailblazers armor is more than most people will ever need for staying alive.

They are absolutely amazing solo builds that can handle just about anything you throw at them.
Here is a link to my Condi Weaver Build Video. Do take a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca2bjdb-pY

 

While these builds do not self sustain like Condi Rev, Condi Scourge or Power Scrapper, they have access to secondary sources of heals. Ele is MUCH more viable as a soloist than the Warrior, and far more durable than anything you can build on thief using Invigorating precision.

 

I appreciate the thought you have put into your suggestions, but they are based on a false premise. If you are struggling with Ele as a soloist, post your build and gear and maybe people will have some tips for you.

 

[SeTect.5918]

1 minute ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

As a soloist, Trailblazers Condi Weaver and Tempest are near the top in terms of durability.

Traiting Written in Stone from Earth and the Signet as your heal will grant minor small self sustain . This and the Trailblazers armor is more than most people will ever need for staying alive.

They are absolutely amazing solo builds that can handle just about anything you throw at them.
Here is a link to my Condi Weaver Build Video. Do take a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca2bjdb-pY

 

While these builds do not self sustain like Condi Rev, Condi Scourge or Power Scrapper, they have access to secondary sources of heals. Ele is MUCH more viable as a soloist than the Warrior, and far more durable than anything you can build on thief using Invigorating precision.

 

I appreciate the thought you have put into your suggestions, but they are based on a false premise. If you are struggling with Ele as a soloist, post your build and gear and maybe people will have some tips for you.

 

I dont have problems with my build, and i also can solo good enough, but if i compare it do other classes its just not fair.

But tbh, yes maybe i should edit the base wishlist a bit because maybe i had some wrong thought, yes i still want sustain increases, but i dont think it needs a that big buff as i said first.
I also can solo the champion of balthasar in auric basin without "big" problems, but with other classes i just do it far better.

And condi thief has less sustain but far better damage. condi thief is really good actually.
Warrior is not bad in soloing too. But yes Weaver can do better, but isnt it always condi>power?

However i ll edit my "Wishlist" from the first post a bit so it gets "fairer".

 

[Dadnir.5038]

4 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

You have nearly 0 heals out of water spec with ele.

 

Do you?

Heal skill: arcane brillance, ether renewal, glyph of elemental harmony, signet of restoration, wash the pain away, aquatic stance.

Utility: signet of water, stone resonance, (conjure frost bow/conjure earth shield)

Evade skill: burning retreat, earthen rush, burning speed, updraft, earthen vortex (not gonna go through dual element skills), twist of fate.

Block/invuln: arcane shield, mistform, obsidian flesh, (swirling wind/magnetic aura)

Blind: blinding flash, blinding surge, dust devil, dust storm, sandstorm, (not gonna go through dual element skills)

Tempest grant regen on flash freeze and well nearly any aura as well as some heal that don't need water attunment. weaver have many source of barrier. Arcane got some heals.

There is also the various sources of weakness, protection, toughness, hard CC and soft CC.

 

There isn't less source of sustain on elementalist than on other professions. In fact it's at the limit at which ANet's devs can give if they don't want unkillable elementalist builds to pop out everywhere to then be complained about in the sPvP subforum.

 

NB.: Also technically water can give you 20% increased damage (30% in water attunment) which is definitely better than most traitline.

[mindcircus.1506]

2 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I dont have problems with my build, and i also can solo good enough, but if i compare it do other classes its just not fair.

But tbh, yes maybe i should edit the base wishlist a bit because maybe i had some wrong thought, yes i still want sustain increases, but i dont think it needs a that big buff as i said first.
I also can solo the champion of balthasar in auric basin without "big" problems, but with other classes i just do it far better.

And condi thief has less sustain but far better damage. condi thief is really good actually.
Warrior is not bad in soloing too. But yes Weaver can do better, but isnt it always condi>power?

However i ll edit my "Wishlist" from the first post a bit so it gets "fairer".

 

So you are soloing Balthazaar HP and you believe there is something wrong with your sustain and your spec needs buffs?

Come on now.

 

We all know that the few builds that can seriously outperform Condi Weaver (Renegade Souldbeast and Scourge) as a soloist are busted. This is not a problem with Weaver's tuning. This is a couple of outlying specs that are overperforming.

 

You don't balance a game around those specs, you nerf them (as Anet did this week).

Power creep is unhealthy.

[SeTect.5918]

4 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

So you are soloing Balthazaar HP and you believe there is something wrong with your sustain and your spec needs buffs?

Come on now.

 

We all know that the few builds that can seriously outperform Condi Weaver (Renegade Souldbeast and Scourge) as a soloist are busted. This is not a problem with Weaver's tuning. This is a couple of outlying specs that are overperforming.

 

You don't balance a game around those specs, you nerf them (as Anet did this week).

Power creep is unhealthy.

Every class can solo balthasar hp, its just a thing about how good can they. And most classes can better than ele, thats basically the only problem i have.
Most classes are better than ele with a less hard rotation. Thats basically my only problem.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

power ele needs its own version of invigorating precision/impact savant (w/o the vitality reduction), i really dont think anything else will really help it survive without completely butchering its effectiveness, because it just loses more hp than it attempts to actively heal back

 

i dont think condi ele needs any additional sustain

 

there are also other options, such as bringing arcane brilliance cd down to match the pvp version, and a whole bunch of other similar skills/traits which are oddly less effective/have higher cds than their pvp/wvw counterparts

[mindcircus.1506]

Just now, SeTect.5918 said:

Every class can solo balthasar hp, its just a thing about how good can they. And most classes can better than ele, thats basically the only problem i have.
Most classes are better than ele with a less hard rotation. Thats basically my only problem.

Actually your Original Post started with a complaint about Ele's sustain.

4 of your suggestions in the OP are directly related to sustain.

[SeTect.5918]

7 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Do you?

Heal skill: arcane brillance, ether renewal, glyph of elemental harmony, signet of restoration, wash the pain away, aquatic stance.

Utility: signet of water, stone resonance, (conjure frost bow/conjure earth shield)

Evade skill: burning retreat, earthen rush, burning speed, updraft, earthen vortex (not gonna go through dual element skills), twist of fate.

Block/invuln: arcane shield, mistform, obsidian flesh, (swirling wind/magnetic aura)

Blind: blinding flash, blinding surge, dust devil, dust storm, sandstorm, (not gonna go through dual element skills)

Tempest grant regen on flash freeze and well nearly any aura as well as some heal that don't need water attunment. weaver have many source of barrier. Arcane got some heals.

There is also the various sources of weakness, protection, toughness, hard CC and soft CC.

 

There isn't less source of sustain on elementalist than on other professions. In fact it's at the limit at which ANet's devs can give if they don't want unkillable elementalist builds to pop out everywhere to then be complained about in the sPvP subforum.

 

NB.: Also technically water can give you 20% increased damage (30% in water attunment) which is definitely better than most traitline.

Basically i meant "out of your barrier you have low heals".

signet of water is a poor heal tbh and if you use it you just lose damage, stone resonance is a barrier skill but pretty cool yes.

unkillable elementalist builds? I think you are dreaming. But anets devs want to let pop up unkillable necro and revenant builds everywhere?

[mindcircus.1506]

6 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

power ele needs its own version of invigorating precision/impact savant (w/o the vitality reduction), i really dont think anything else will really help it survive without completely butchering its effectiveness, because it just loses more hp than it attempts to actively heal back

 

i dont think condi ele needs any additional sustain

 

there are also other options, such as bringing arcane brilliance cd down to match the pvp version, and a whole bunch of other similar skills/traits which are oddly less effective/have higher cds than their pvp/wvw counterparts

 

Power ele has access to the exact same traits that make Condi Ele viable for sustain.

 

The actual difference is the Trailblazers Gear and runes.

Edited May 29, 2021 by mindcircus.1506

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The problem with open world ele is their defense is almost exclusively active through evades unless you sacrifice all your dps by taking defensive traits. Weaver has barrier, but you still need to take multiple defensive traits and 3-4 stances to have it amount to anything. Compare this to rev, necro, scrapper, or even thief where 1 trait can heal for like 5x more than their healing skill.

[mindcircus.1506]

4 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

The problem with open world ele is their defense is almost exclusively active through evades unless you sacrifice all your dps by taking defensive traits. Weaver has barrier, but you still need to take multiple defensive traits and 3-4 stances to have it amount to anything. Compare this to rev, necro, scrapper, or even thief where 1 trait can heal for like 5x more than their healing skill.

 

Thief does not hit this level of healing without going pretty much all in on power damage and crit rate. You don't get this kind of self heal without (or pretty close to) 100% crit rate and a butt load of power damage. This means it cannot leverage a gear set with any more sustain than Marauder's.

A massive chunk of Power Scrapper's "self heal" comes in the form of barrier, which is constantly disappearing and is only really sustained in situations where there are enough adds being cleaved to keep the barrier up at a decent enough level.

[Emberheart.8426]

19 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

 

Power ele has access to the exact same traits that make Condi Ele viable for sustain.

 

The actual difference is the Trailblazers Gear and runes.

Actually there is way more difference than that. Condi takes earth instead of air specialization, which gives some free defense. On top of that condi ele actually uses earth attunement for optimal damage, so it can use lava skin for additional barrier and earthen vortex for an evade without destroying its rotation.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Why range capability? You can use scepter or staff (as power). Warrior and Herald doing by far better with also having just a melee weapon.
Of course also ele can get good sustain with the right build but that's not the issue. The issue is, that ele has one of the hardest rotations and nearly every class is doing better in soloing.
Also the barrier won't really help you. Its quite low compared to scrapper or scourge. And they even can heal better than ele even if they would not have barrier. Scourge got a buff on may 11 update and is high up on the benchmark list now. I know u cant compare classes by benchmarks if its in solo gameplay but scourge and ele has both poor boon uptimes so these two you can actually compare. Scourge has not bad damage anymore. Also Scrapper got more quickness uptime, which also means more barrier since you get barrier based on damage.
Ele if course has good sustain but nearly every other class does better with an easier rotation.
And if ele has also the ability to get good sustain it doesnt mean it shouldnt get more because every class has the ability to get good sustain, but not all do the same result.
It is not the problem that i play a bad build or something but ele really needs better ways to get the ability to solo content easier than it is at the moment.

However the "Wishlist" will get edited now so it comes to a fairer patch and not as i wanted it to be first.

 

I'm talking specifically about condi sword weaver, which is the best build ele has at the moment for soloing champion/legendary bosses.  Power staff and scepter aren't even on the radar in this comparison.  If you're playing builds like this and trying to solo difficult bosses, naturally you're going to come up short when comparing to the best solo play builds for other classes.

 

Arguing which class is "best" is pointless.  There are too many conditions that favor one build or another.  If you want strong damage paired with amazing sustain?  Again, ele has that.  It's called sword weaver.  Power staff and scepter are not good builds for soloing tough challenges.  They have neither the damage nor the sustain.  The same applies to other classes.  You want to solo legendaries on necro?  You use scourge, not core or reaper.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Basically i meant "out of your barrier you have low heals".

signet of water is a poor heal tbh and if you use it you just lose damage, stone resonance is a barrier skill but pretty cool yes.

unkillable elementalist builds? I think you are dreaming. But anets devs want to let pop up unkillable necro and revenant builds everywhere?

 

No basically it mean that the elementalist have many many many source of sustain and is balanced around this fact. The elementalist is designed in such a way that it always have water attunment at hand to look for quite a lot of extra heal and ANet balance it based on this fact. You can be very jealous of what other have, but, however difficult you find it to use what you have, never forget what you have because it's important balance-wise.

 

Also, the other professions also lose damage when taking utility/trait that aren't meant for damage, that's not something unique to the elementalist.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

No basically it mean that the elementalist have many many many source of sustain and is balanced around this fact. The elementalist is designed in such a way that it always have water attunment at hand to look for quite a lot of extra heal and ANet balance it based on this fact. You can be very jealous of what other have, but, however difficult you find it to use what you have, never forget what you have because it's important balance-wise.

 

Also, the other professions also lose damage when taking utility/trait that aren't meant for damage, that's not something unique to the elementalist.

 

Since you bring it up, that is a bit of the problem with elementalist.  Rotating to water is a big damage loss.  The argument could be made that having flimsy baseline sustain with the idea that you have an extra healing weapon in your kit is not a great tradeoff because it requires the class to sacrifice damage for sustain on all builds.  The only way around it is to not use this part of your kit.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

Since you bring it up, that is a bit of the problem with elementalist.  Rotating to water is a big damage loss.  The argument could be made that having flimsy baseline sustain with the idea that you have an extra healing weapon in your kit is not a great tradeoff because it requires the class to sacrifice damage for sustain on all builds.  The only way around it is to not use this part of your kit.

 

Sure, still I'm just saying that turning a blind eye on what you have and drooling on what other have is a silly excuse for buffs. If ANet buff other element sustain and water become obsolete, people will start asking water to be buffed. If ANet buff water damage to make it worth entering the rotation, people will still ask other element to be buffed in order to compete with water. There won't be a middle point.

 

In another post on this thread I've list part of what other attunment can benefit already for sustain and it's already pretty substancial as it is. I believe, that losing a bit of dps for some sustain burst in water isn't a high price in time of need. You can ignore this part of the kit, but "balance" can't.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Sure, still I'm just saying that turning a blind eye on what you have and drooling on what other have is a silly excuse for buffs. If ANet buff other element sustain and water become obsolete, people will start asking water to be buffed. If ANet buff water damage to make it worth entering the rotation, people will still ask other element to be buffed in order to compete with water. There won't be a middle point.

 

In another post on this thread I've list part of what other attunment can benefit already for sustain and it's already pretty substancial as it is. I believe, that losing a bit of dps for some sustain burst in water isn't a high price in time of need. You can ignore this part of the kit, but "balance" can't.

 

If it is intended that baseline sustain is compensated by water attunement, it shouldn't come at a cost in DPS.  Considering this healing as "free" sustain above what other classes are capable of is not accurate, given the current design.  It comes at a cost to baseline sustain when it shouldn't.

 

As you say, it's a tricky balance problem.  The easiest solution that occurs to me is to do as requested by many here and increase elementalist baseline sustain.  That may require some adjustment to some of the tankier defensive options available to the class, but honestly they only recently started noticing battle scars so I figure they can afford to look the other way on this class for awhile! 

 

Edit: Reading that back, it's a bit unclear.  What I mean is that increasing baseline sustain would reduce the need to rotate into water, allowing elementalists to produce better damage under more pressure than the current design allows.  I imagine we could fill in with synergy traits that provide DPS benefits for rotating into and out of water to reduce the impact further, but I have no specific suggestions on that.

Edited May 29, 2021 by AliamRationem.5172