[WvW] Some thoughts after many hours of core Engineer

[Shroud.2307]

I can think of other users here who also enjoy torturing themselves with core Engi, so maybe they'll chime in as well. But for starters, I feel like sharing some thoughts and experiences after playing a lot of core Engi in WvW (and some PvP and open world PvE) just for the sake of discussion. Because this is going to be a novel I doubt if many will read it all, but I hope you learn something, or have something to share if you do.

Power Rifle
I mostly prefer a zerk build with x1 Valk and x1 Mara pieces to get myself to 20k HP. Build crafting is something I love to do, and I can say from experience with doing so on various classes that this is one of my favorites to play, and one that feels like it has a very high skill ceiling. It's relatively easy to pick up but skill can allow you to do much more with it. That said, it also feels "outdated" compared to many "modern" builds. In an open field straight up 1v1 it simply cannot keep up with both the defenses and offenses of a lot of builds, so it is very much a game of outplaying and abusing your surroundings.
I feel that it is a strong build that is outshone by mechanics beyond its time, if that makes sense. I've experimented with 1v1s against various builds and I think conclusively, Longbow Dragonhunter is the #1 hard counter. Some others that, assuming open field 1v1, are extremely difficult would be; Any form of Deadeye, tanky Boonbeast, Condi Druid, Condi Mes/Mirage/Chrono, D/P Thief, Hybrid or Condi Tempest, Power Herald, Jalis Rene, Grenade Scrapper.
That list is pretty long, isn't it. Well, that should give you an idea of why I say the build feels outdated. It can handle many of those things in a non-duel format assuming you have ground to work with and time on your side, but without that, chances are slim unless you're better (some cases being significantly so is necessary) than your opponent.

Also, if you're using Bomb Kit and/or Grenade Kit in open world, Power core actually does some hefty damage. I often use this build in Drizzlewood with a few alterations and I'm able to pump out some pretty good numbers. Big 'Ol Bomb, Pry Bar, Blunderbuss, and Jump Shot all frequently hit <20k, and with a tight rotation the overall DPS isn't totally abysmal either.

Condi P/S
Off-hand Pistol is just unfortunately bad. Despite the cooldown, I would honestly say Glue Shot is better than Blowtorch for the reliability of landing it. Shield is so much more versatile that I think it's worth taking pretty much no matter what, same with Holosmith.
Outside of losing a hard hitting attack (Blowtorch) I think Condi core is quite good, and can even compete relatively reliably with some meta builds. Shield, especially when paired with Inventions, Elixir H, and Anticorrosion Plating, are extremely powerful. Poison Dart Volley also has some absurd scaling to it such that if your opponent doesn't cleanse, you can restack the same x3 Poison 3 times before the first round wears off. At least compared to many Condi skills I know of, this one must get some of the highest return from Condi Duration that I've seen, like full Trailblazer it's 20seconds(!).
Thanks to the variety of Conditions Engi can apply, it can be very difficult to manage them all even for someone with a moderate amount of Cleanse. With those strengths in mind, it does severely lack in mobility unless you're using Rocket Boots, which personally I recommend against. Meaning if you're to use Condi core, you need to be very cautious about when you choose to put the hurt on and when you use your CC's (of which you can have more than a few with Shield and the right Kits). So, despite the prejudice against Condi builds, I actually think this is one of the few that requires a moderate degree of skill because you can't just dump your Conditions and pray, but can actually handle fighting a pretty wide array of builds.

Hybrid and Power P/S
Since the Celestial update I'm starting to think Hybrid is flat out better than Power for P/S now, though prior to that change, and in the future if Celestial gets a nerf, I was thinking that Power P/S was better. With high Boon Duration (<50%), Inventions, and of course Alchemy, you have so much Protection and other Boons that you're actually extremely tanky even with moderate - low armor. And because both Firearms and Explosives offer so much in the way of offense, depending on which you take you can have quite a lot of killing power too.
I've had a lot of success with both variants, but since the Celestial buff I think the Hybrid version is best, and it works with either of the aforementioned trait-lines. In the case of Firearms, with Flamethrower, and in the case of Explosives, with Bomb Kit. Both offer some nice stat buffers to Ferocity, damage, and/or crit chance, and both kits are great Hybrid damage dealers. 
Like Condi P/S, I think these variants can handle a wide range of builds and is quite strong despite the general lack of mobility. 

Conclusion
Core Engi isn't as weak as people make it out to be, it's just demanding of a higher skill ceiling. Like Thief, it isn't the easiest thing to pick up and go with, it isn't always rewarding, and a well played one can do some impressive things. 
I think more people need to give it a chance and to have the patience to practice with it. Don't get me wrong, I do certainly think it is one of, if not the worst of the core specs across all Professions, I just think some people assume it's completely unusable and that the frequent citation of its weaknesses make it seem like the gap between it and other specs is much larger. 
With a little love and adding a more definitive identity (an F5, especially when 2 of 3 are either flat out weak or situational isn't an identity, ANet) I think core Engi could truly shine again. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Shroud.2307
Formatting, spelling.

[PierPiero.9142]

can you share your p/s condi build ? at least the utilities you use ? 

[Shroud.2307]

23 minutes ago, PierPiero.9142 said:

can you share your p/s condi build ? at least the utilities you use ? 

Here you go.
You can replace FT or Bomb Kit with something else if you prefer, but I recommend using at least one or the other to maintain pressure and for utility. Always try to bury Burn stacks with other Conditions to make it harder to get rid of as it will be your highest ticking Condition, and try to using Poison Dart Volley off cooldown. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Dawdler.8521]

Hybrid core engie unfortunetly isnt really viable - its playable for sure, but weak - because of the way the weapons work. Rifle is all power, whatever condi it has is pathetic. Problem is you need alot of power to effectivly use it. And P/P/S in turn is all condi, whatever power it has is pathetic. So you need alot of condi to run that effectivly. Not even the celestial buff weigh it up. Best case scenario is probably just a few things celestial and the rest leaning either way.

 

Once you go into kit skills you always have flaws - ft is nice with hybrid sure, but you're gonna get roflstomped by melee with more damage or ranged that outrange you. Bomb kit is... well, stupid. Grenade kit is good if you can aim the things, but again requires alot of power. Also I would argue its by far most effective on scrapper where you can press the power damage with more stealth and the hammer as a power weapon, I dont even think I've seen core run grenades. Mortar and grenade kit become redundant.

 

Personally I still run my p/p condi core because I can laugh in moa. Just yesterday I met a 3v3 fighting over a camp cap and our guys where having issues (of course it was an enemy guard+necro+rev combo) so dived in, moad all three and ended the fight with that one skill, lol. Now I am entertained for the next 6 months.

[BoxHat.1824]

A very very good analysis. I think you're right that it has some good synergies but Is simply outdated these days with the amount of extra stuff other classes/elite specs get access too.

 

Would you mind throwing up your power Rifle build?

I'm curious to have a run around wvw and test it for myself

[Shroud.2307]

3 hours ago, Ustaf.2953 said:

A very very good analysis. I think you're right that it has some good synergies but Is simply outdated these days with the amount of extra stuff other classes/elite specs get access too.

 

Would you mind throwing up your power Rifle build?

I'm curious to have a run around wvw and test it for myself

"Power Cannon"
Just be aware of the weaknesses I stated. That said, this build has an absolute ton of damage and I don't think a lot of people expect it. Pry Bar, Throw Wrench, Acid Bomb, Mortar skills, Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, and Toolkit autos (don't neglect to use TK autos, they do a TON of damage, you just need to know the right times to do it) are all tremendously damaging skills, especially when coupled with the additional hit of EE. 
Pry Bar is the main source of "burst", with EE + weapon swap Hydro sigil all 3 hits combined will often do between 14 and 18k. Don't believe it?:
12k Pry Bar
17,849 burst

Edited May 31, 2021 by Shroud.2307