Ele Arcane

[Sunshine.5014]

The Arcane utilities should grant Alacrity instead Guaranteed Crit. It's thematic, and it's right. At the moment, the Arcane utilities are pretty terrible. Please feel free to remove damage from the Arcane utilities if needed. Give them Alacrity and they will be used a lot more often!

 

This also will open up build diversity. Imagine a support Ele that gives some Alacrity instead of relying on Aura for example.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Sunshine.5014
Typp

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

No, Arcane utilities should be "pure force" based skills, not some fancy time/ether/whatever broken mechanic slapped onto them.
We still miss "elite Arcane" skill, which could be "Arcane Pressure" instant cast 360 radius knockdown CC 3s duration, 900 range with like maybe 40-60cd that ignores blinds and blocks?
Or give them all the "Ignore blind and block" treatment so they'll be a little bit more competetive with other powercreeped stuff?
Your idea is probably around PvE only, which is already beyond saving at this point, in PvP/WvW you would regret that idea quite quickly.

[Jski.6180]

18 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

No, Arcane utilities should be "pure force" based skills, not some fancy time/ether/whatever broken mechanic slapped onto them.
We still miss "elite Arcane" skill, which could be "Arcane Pressure" instant cast 360 radius knockdown CC 3s duration, 900 range with like maybe 40-60cd that ignores blinds and blocks?
Or give them all the "Ignore blind and block" treatment so they'll be a little bit more competetive with other powercreeped stuff?
Your idea is probably around PvE only, which is already beyond saving at this point, in PvP/WvW you would regret that idea quite quickly.

Why that soft cc is not pure force at all and its very much low dmg as an effect.

 

If you want to put alacrity on any ele skill it needs to be on an effect that has no cdr such as tempest shouts or weaver stances or if you MUST have it on core then a conja wepon should have it some how. It was always a bad ideal on anets end to put alacrity on a skill set that already has a cdr effect on it.

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

No, Arcane utilities should be "pure force" based skills, not some fancy time/ether/whatever broken mechanic slapped onto them.
We still miss "elite Arcane" skill, which could be "Arcane Pressure" instant cast 360 radius knockdown CC 3s duration, 900 range with like maybe 40-60cd that ignores blinds and blocks?
Or give them all the "Ignore blind and block" treatment so they'll be a little bit more competetive with other powercreeped stuff?
Your idea is probably around PvE only, which is already beyond saving at this point, in PvP/WvW you would regret that idea quite quickly.

 

Hmm, I don't know about that from a PvP/WvW perspective... If we're being completely honest, the only build that really uses any Arcane skills anymore are Fresh Air variants that use Arcane Blast/Arcane Shield. Arcane Blast is already pretty... meh, the crit damage is not something incredibly meaningful and with the current meta most FA builds are instead opting for full defensive traits instead of the extra burst damage. Its more useful for being an extra blind or immob. As for the other Arcane Skills? No builds, in PvE, PvP or WvW seriously run either Arcane Brilliance or Arcane Power. I know some zerg builds had Arcane Wave a few years back when Weaver first came out, but nowadays most Eles I know would just rather run Glyph of Storms if they wanted an extra DPS utility.

 

The only Arcane ability that sees any real use and isn't completely garbage is Arcane Shield.

Considering that ANet has not given Elementalist ANY of the new boons (Resistance, Resolution, Quickness, or Alacrity... no I'm not counting the Lightning Hammer quickness here) in any reliable way, adding something new to the Arcane Skills like Alacrity or Quickness could be just what they need to finally be considered again. And honestly, none of the skills would really need to lose their crit bonus, if anything it could make Arcane Skills more  of a viable choice for DPS utilities.

Personally if we're talking reworking, I would rather see Arcane Shield, Brilliance and Power all get 1 additional charge to make them a little bit more viable... or replace Final Shielding with a trait that gives all Arcane skills 1 additional charge. But that might be too broken haha.

[Dadnir.5038]

Arcane skills and their trait are powerful, it's just that they don't really satisfy the perceived need of the community. If anything, It would be nice to be able to share arcane lightning effect. Also, Arcane skills being mainly "power based", I wouldn't be against Elemental surge being changed to apply blind on fire attunment and weakness on air attunment.

 

If Fire aura gave a flat increase of power instead of might and arcane lightning was sharable on a good uptime, core elementalist would be a pretty good offensive support in PvE (It doesn't have much worth in sPvP/WvW thought).

[Razor.6392]

Just buff its damage back. They were the power mantra of the ele class and it got deleted because big bulky slow condi fights are more exciting than direct damage.

[Sunshine.5014]

8 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

Just buff its damage back. They were the power mantra of the ele class and it got deleted because big bulky slow condi fights are more exciting than direct damage.

Buffing Arcane damage is how you get the rest of the class nerfed. Arcane was nerfed because of Fresh Air Ele one shot people in PvP and WvW. Buff Arcane damage back up means they WILL nerf Fresh Air Ele in another way.

 

So, no thanks! I'd rather give Arcane something else, like Alacrity, which is both thematic and useful (but not OP).

[Razor.6392]

On 5/30/2021 at 10:49 PM, Sunshine.5014 said:

Buffing Arcane damage is how you get the rest of the class nerfed. Arcane was nerfed because of Fresh Air Ele one shot people in PvP and WvW. Buff Arcane damage back up means they WILL nerf Fresh Air Ele in another way.

 

So, no thanks! I'd rather give Arcane something else, like Alacrity, which is both thematic and useful (but not OP).

Huh? Is that why FA was extremely unpopular and relatively weak as a build in every game mode? Literally every power build was better or had more sustain / utility.

 

Oh you're the author of the thread, I take you haven't been playing ele for long.

[Jski.6180]

11 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

Huh? Is that why FA was extremely unpopular and relatively weak as a build in every game mode? Literally every power build was better or had more sustain / utility.

 

Oh you're the author of the thread, I take you haven't been playing ele for long.

FA should of been on the chopping block some time ago there just no real game play going on with it at best you see some one and the fight is over there just a complete lack if interaction. So to keep arcain the way they are just because of FA is such a bad ideal.

 

I say make Arcain a pure soft cc when traited roots chill blinds and slow and make arcain skills unblockable not a 100% crit rate. Arcain is on the utility trate line not the crit train line that is what air is for. Now if you swap glyph and arcain skills from there current trait lines then i would understand buffing arcain dmg / crit dmg effect but as they are now arcain should be utility not dmg.

[Razor.6392]

12 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

FA should of been on the chopping block some time ago there just no real game play going on with it at best you see some one and the fight is over there just a complete lack if interaction. So to keep arcain the way they are just because of FA is such a bad ideal.

 

I say make Arcain a pure soft cc when traited roots chill blinds and slow and make arcain skills unblockable not a 100% crit rate. Arcain is on the utility trate line not the crit train line that is what air is for. Now if you swap glyph and arcain skills from there current trait lines then i would understand buffing arcain dmg / crit dmg effect but as they are now arcain should be utility not dmg.

Again, if it was so good, why didn't more people run it?

 

Using your smart logic, power mesmer and deadeye as a whole should also be deleted.

[Touchme.1097]

Alacrity and Arcane attunement should be part of the Elementalist kit, currently Alacrity is only provided by 2 professions and there is little diversity in PvE comps.

As a side note I am asking all the PvP and WvW players to stop being so negative against suggestions that would affect PvE and get more constructive with their criticism.

[Jski.6180]

10 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

Again, if it was so good, why didn't more people run it?

 

Using your smart logic, power mesmer and deadeye as a whole should also be deleted.

Its not fun to play.

[Razor.6392]

23 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its not fun to play.

You forgot "in my opinion".

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Razor.6392 said:

You forgot "in my opinion".

Its ppl opinion not to run FA. Not every one likes the "macor like" level of speed you have to do to get the most of out that type of build. Its more thf like then mage like in my view and it dose not fit ele at all.

 

As for arcain IF you truly want it to be a crit dmg utility it needs to be on the air line not the arcain line as air is the crit dmg line and arcain line is the utility effect line. Right now glyph are more utility in mind set not fitting the air atument line at all. You would have to rename them and maybe making arcain skills in to manta or some air related manta would fit.

[Razor.6392]

14 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its ppl opinion not to run FA. Not every one likes the "macor like" level of speed you have to do to get the most of out that type of build. Its more thf like then mage like in my view and it dose not fit ele at all.

 

As for arcain IF you truly want it to be a crit dmg utility it needs to be on the air line not the arcain line as air is the crit dmg line and arcain line is the utility effect line. Right now glyph are more utility in mind set not fitting the air atument line at all. You would have to rename them and maybe making arcain skills in to manta or some air related manta would fit.

High skill cap builds are fun, they don't run it because it had drawbacks and it was kind of a gimmick. Now it's even less popular than ever.

 

Who are you to decide what fits ele and what doesn't? Is an elementalist supposed to be a healer as tempest? A condi dealer as weaver? If so, then why can't they be a bursty, rapid fire caster when their build is based around air as their primary element? For the record thief has zero builds that require that many button presses in such a small amount of time. Maybe power mesmer would rival it.

 

If every thread suggestion became a reality, and if we gauged how many bad ideas are in this ele section compared to good ones, then maybe it's a good thing that devs don't really pay much attention to this forum, otherwise ele would've been reworked 200 times over at this point.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Razor.6392

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

7 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

High skill cap builds are fun, they don't run it because it had drawbacks and it was kind of a gimmick. Now it's even less popular than ever.

 

Who are you to decide what fits ele and what doesn't? Is an elementalist supposed to be a healer as tempest? A condi dealer as weaver? If so, then why can't they be a bursty, rapid fire caster when their build is based around air as their primary element? For the record thief has zero builds that require that many button presses in such a small amount of time. Maybe power mesmer would rival it.

 

If every thread suggestion became a reality, and if we gauged how many bad ideas are in this ele section compared to good ones, then maybe it's a good thing that devs don't really pay much attention to this forum, otherwise ele would've been reworked 200 times over at this point.

Well, Elementalist should be "master of elements", which in reality is master of pepega, Tempest should be "storms", which is Elementalist with few more whirly skills and auras as shouts(kekw) and Weaver should be about mixing elements, which in reality is Elementalist with clunky Thief Dual Skills. The overall design of Elementalist as a whole is all over the place and most of the time the theme doesn't fit it.
At this point I'm pretty sure that even A-net doesn't know what "Elementalist is supposed to be", since being a hindrance to itself.
Reason to not use FA Weaver: you need to break your fingers to get some pepe numbers of your "burst", if you're lucky enough that the clunkiness of class won't stop you from doing all of your rotation. On top of that it doesn't have any good defenses in case of failure or even stealth like Mesmer, which burst can be macroes, since most of it is near instant.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Well, Elementalist should be "master of elements", which in reality is master of pepega, Tempest should be "storms", which is Elementalist with few more whirly skills and auras as shouts(kekw) and Weaver should be about mixing elements, which in reality is Elementalist with clunky Thief Dual Skills. The overall design of Elementalist as a whole is all over the place and most of the time the theme doesn't fit it.
At this point I'm pretty sure that even A-net doesn't know what "Elementalist is supposed to be", since being a hindrance to itself.
Reason to not use FA Weaver: you need to break your fingers to get some pepe numbers of your "burst", if you're lucky enough that the clunkiness of class won't stop you from doing all of your rotation. On top of that it doesn't have any good defenses in case of failure or even stealth like Mesmer, which burst can be macroes, since most of it is near instant.

Ele is supposed to be nothing but pure high damage. Not a lot of provided utility, no unique effects, no access to new conditions or buffs, no tricks. It's just straight forward damage that relies on a 2nd party to buff, heal, and protect the elementalist while they string together a bunch of wet noodles that miraculously does top tier dps via gimmicky trait, sigil, and rune stacking when executed exactly right. Where the ele's strength comes from is so indirect and based around a bunch of weird damage modifiers to the point where you need a 3rd party application so figure out if you're actually doing anything beneficial. 

 

I got a lot of salt from trying to buildcraft with ele because nothing seems to synergize or work together. It's just random effects you pile up to the point where you can't keep track of them and actually purposefully use, you just have to follow the rotation that has mathematically been proven to hit the multipliers in the best way possible, otherwise you are doing nothing. 

 

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

8 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Ele is supposed to be nothing but pure high damage. Not a lot of provided utility, no unique effects, no access to new conditions or buffs, no tricks. It's just straight forward damage that relies on a 2nd party to buff, heal, and protect the elementalist while they string together a bunch of wet noodles that miraculously does top tier dps via gimmicky trait, sigil, and rune stacking when executed exactly right. Where the ele's strength comes from is so indirect and based around a bunch of weird damage modifiers to the point where you need a 3rd party application so figure out if you're actually doing anything beneficial. 

 

I got a lot of salt from trying to buildcraft with ele because nothing seems to synergize or work together. It's just random effects you pile up to the point where you can't keep track of them and actually purposefully use, you just have to follow the rotation that has mathematically been proven to hit the multipliers in the best way possible, otherwise you are doing nothing. 

 

 

Well, Ele in the beginning was supposed to be "Jack of all trades, master of none" and to a degree it worked like that, it could damage if invested properly, could heal if need and other stuff with mechanic "Attuments", but that design backfired quite horribly with e-speces which were "specialized in specific area"(in theory, powercreep goes brrrrrrrrrrrr) and it was going against A-net "play however you want".
I'm pretty sure A-net wasn't even thinking about something like e-speces in 2012, since the overall design is simply kitten bad for something like GW2. The class will never become something "great", because A-net will never make a proper e-spec that completely reworks Attument mechanic. Too much work~
Tempest - Attuments should be replaced with storm-themed skills, that's already kitten load of skills to rework, but what we've got is some few meme windy based skills, the mechanic doesn't change in the slightest.
Weaver - Attuments should be replaced by new types of mixed-elements like Fire+Water = Vapor, Fire+Earth = Magma, etc. and replace all weapon skills with these theme based, but we've got some clunky teef ripoff.
A lot of classes could really become something amazing if they've decided to go "subclass" route with it's own traitlines, but A-net went with super lazy approach there and we have sad circus. 

[Jski.6180]

9 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

High skill cap builds are fun, they don't run it because it had drawbacks and it was kind of a gimmick. Now it's even less popular than ever.

 

Who are you to decide what fits ele and what doesn't? Is an elementalist supposed to be a healer as tempest? A condi dealer as weaver? If so, then why can't they be a bursty, rapid fire caster when their build is based around air as their primary element? For the record thief has zero builds that require that many button presses in such a small amount of time. Maybe power mesmer would rival it.

 

If every thread suggestion became a reality, and if we gauged how many bad ideas are in this ele section compared to good ones, then maybe it's a good thing that devs don't really pay much attention to this forum, otherwise ele would've been reworked 200 times over at this point.

That not a skill thing its just a pure key pressing spam. A skill game play is being able to swap up what your doing in the moment but that is too slow to do with FA you must press buttons at a macrio like level meaning a very set button press.

 

Well i played it for a very long time and i played it for the field support game play something that has been effect replaced by power creep. Anet has removed every thing i loved about this game because it was too "skill" based.

 

Its just a question of how things work and how you see them i do not see them making the swap like they should but that dose not make air line the utility line and the arcain line the crit dmg line. So arcain should always have more utility effects to it then raw dmg as the utility line it self of arcain is mostly utility with 2 crit effects.

[Razor.6392]

2 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

That not a skill thing its just a pure key pressing spam

You're clueless, I'm done here.

[Jski.6180]

13 minutes ago, Razor.6392 said:

You're clueless, I'm done here.

Skill is the ability from moment to moment to change what your doing or to work with some one else to get a stronger out come just hitting a same set of buttons over and over is not real skilled game play just a pure habit. That is what they call face rolling on a keyboard.

[Razor.6392]

8 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Skill is the ability from moment to moment to change what your doing or to work with some one else to get a stronger out come just hitting a same set of buttons over and over is not real skilled game play just a pure habit. That is what they call face rolling on a keyboard.

Yeah because all FA players do is mash rotations right? It's not like on top of pressing multiple skills at once they also have to dodge, face the opponent direction, kite, rotate healing and defensive skills, superspeed away, use lightning flash or simply play like literally everybody else, even more considering that they're often glass cannons with VERY LITTLE survivability compared to more tanky / healing ele builds.

 

That to me indicates that it's a high skill cap with no room for errors on top of execution requirements. Perhaps you are only thinking of a fight where the FA ele's opponent simply gets one shot (this was probably you, several times) - that doesn't happen against good players.

 

Now, playing sword/focus and mashing all your abilities off cooldown then healing to full through a water blast combo? Now that is truly skillful gameplay.

[Jski.6180]

4 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

Yeah because all FA players do is mash rotations right? It's not like on top of pressing multiple skills at once they also have to dodge, face the opponent direction, kite, rotate healing and defensive skills, superspeed away, use lightning flash or simply play like literally everybody else, even more considering that they're often glass cannons with VERY LITTLE survivability compared to more tanky / healing ele builds.

 

That to me indicates that it's a high skill cap with no room for errors on top of execution requirements. Perhaps you are only thinking of a fight where the FA ele's opponent simply gets one shot (this was probably you, several times) - that doesn't happen against good players.

 

Now, playing sword/focus and mashing all your abilities off cooldown then healing to full through a water blast combo? Now that is truly skillful gameplay.

If your cd on your swap out of an atument is reset that takes away a lot of risk swaping out of that atument it self. It removes the "skill" of the ele class swap risk.

[fuzzyp.6295]

52 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

If your cd on your swap out of an atument is reset that takes away a lot of risk swaping out of that atument it self. It removes the "skill" of the ele class swap risk.

If swapping into Air offered big damage, CC, personal sustain and heals, then yes having its cool down reset would be broken and remove any difficulty. But Air is one of the worst attunements for personal sustain, has no heals and its only CC on its own is blinds. Now, it gains some CC and personal sustain when combined with Earth and Water (stun and stab), but in order to get them the Weaver needs know when to swap to those attunements so they can properly capitalize on the abilities and not completely screw themselves over. Of course, FA Weavers also have to know when to swap into Fire for their true burst combo as well... and know when to get ready to swap into Fire/Water for the dodge. Or into Water/Earth to deal AoE damage when fighting in groups.

And that is just discussing the Dual Attack skills that Weavers have to master. There are also Core and Tempest FA players learn how to use Phoenix, Dragon Tooth and Shatter Stone as strong combos that lead into an Air Burst.

FA is more than just Air... and are we forgetting that whenever an Ele attunes out of Air, even if they go right back into it, Earth/Water/Fire are still on cooldown? If you rapidly swap in between Air->Fire->Air->Water->Air->Earth->Air, then I sincerely hope your opponent didn't dodge your one or two strong bursts, out kite your or, gods forbid, stealth, because now its GG for you you're locked into the every amazing Air auto attack with no other options lol.

I respect players who don't like FA builds because its a tricky build to play with honestly very little pay off. It's a 1v1 dueling build that melts upon any real condi pressure or outnumbered fights. It has its problems. But to use it effectively  (key word here) you need to have full knowledge of the Elementalists tools. Sure you can one shot some zerg pugs but against any player with half a brain isn't going to be a cake walk on the build.

 

Anyway, to get back on topic here are some suggestions on adding Alarcity to Arcane Skills without making it seem too broken:

 

Arcane Blast/Wave - Add: "If target is hit, gain [x] seconds of Alacrity." (Duration of Alarcrity given scales depending on number of foes hit with Arcane Wave.)
Arcane Shield - Add: "If shield does not detonate, gain [x] seconds of Alacrity."
Arcane Power - Add: "Nearby allies also gain [x] seconds of Alacrity."
Arcane Brilliance - Add: "If used as a Combo Finisher, gain [x] seconds of Alacrity."

I don't really think its necessary, but I'd imagine Anet would lower the crit damage a smidge to compensate for the new boon.

 

Also @Dadnir.5038 I really like your suggestion of making Arcane Lightening a shareable damage modifier for Arcane, but I think it would have to be reworked a bit. Most dps PvE builds already have high ferocity so it might not be worth it on its own, and the difference it makes to healers/tanks is probably not worth it either. Also, I think ANet wants to move Arcane away from bringing too much crit to the Elementalists kit. But if they changed it up it could be a very cool mechanic unique to Ele.

 

EDIT: Added a bit more for Air info and explained a bit more for Arcane Wave.

Edited June 5, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[Jski.6180]

31 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

If swapping into Air offered big damage, CC, personal sustain and heals, then yes having its cool down reset would be broken and remove any difficulty. But Air is one of the worst attunements for personal sustain, has no heals and its only CC on its own is blinds. Now, it gains some CC and personal sustain when combined with Earth and Water (stun and stab), but in order to get them the Weaver needs know when to swap to those attunements so they can properly capitalize on the abilities and not completely screw themselves over. Of course, FA Weavers also have to know when to swap into Fire for their true burst combo as well... and know when to get ready to swap into Fire/Water for the dodge. Or into Water/Earth to deal AoE damage when fighting in groups.

And that is just discussing the Dual Attack skills that Weavers have to master. There are also Core and Tempest FA players learn how to use Phoenix, Dragon Tooth and Shatter Stone as strong combos that lead into an Air Burst.

FA is more than just Air... and are we forgetting that whenever an Ele attunes out of Air, even if they go right back into it, Earth/Water/Fire are still on cooldown? If you rapidly swap in between Air->Fire->Air->Water->Air->Earth->Air, then I sincerely hope your opponent didn't dodge your one or two strong bursts, out kite your or, gods forbid, stealth, because now its GG for you you're locked into the every amazing Air auto attack with no other options lol.

I respect players who don't like FA builds because its a tricky build to play with honestly very little pay off. It's a 1v1 dueling build that melts upon any real condi pressure or outnumbered fights. It has its problems. But to use it effectively  (key word here) you need to have full knowledge of the Elementalists tools. Sure you can one shot some zerg pugs but against any player with half a brain isn't going to be a cake walk on the build.

 

Anyway, to get back on topic here are some suggestions on adding Alarcity to Arcane Skills without making it seem too broken:

 

Arcane Blast/Wave - Add: "If target is hit, gain [x] seconds of Alacrity." (Duration of Alarcrity given scales depending on number of foes hit with Arcane Wave.)
Arcane Shield - Add: "If shield does not detonate, gain [x] seconds of Alacrity."
Arcane Power - Add: "Nearby allies also gain [x] seconds of Alacrity."
Arcane Brilliance - Add: "If used as a Combo Finisher, gain [x] seconds of Alacrity."

I don't really think its necessary, but I'd imagine Anet would lower the crit damage a smidge to compensate for the new boon.

 

Also @Dadnir.5038 I really like your suggestion of making Arcane Lightening a shareable damage modifier for Arcane, but I think it would have to be reworked a bit. Most dps PvE builds already have high ferocity so it might not be worth it on its own, and the difference it makes to healers/tanks is probably not worth it either. Also, I think ANet wants to move Arcane away from bringing too much crit to the Elementalists kit. But if they changed it up it could be a very cool mechanic unique to Ele.

 

EDIT: Added a bit more for Air info and explained a bit more for Arcane Wave.

The swap it self is the sustain its not important what atument your swaping into. Most ppl are running air weaver arcain with this set up and that why all of this is about arcane skills but the arcain line it self makes all atument swaps into an self sustain because its an utility line. That why you dont want to push arcain skills into a pure power dmg or even pure condi dmg because at the end of the day its a utility line.