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Would you like to gain the ability to use Utility talents in the Elite slot?


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  1. 1. Would you?



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Posted (edited)

OK, so needing to make choices, creating opportunity costs for those choices, is an important part of game design. When developers don't include, or later remove, opportunity costs, build customization suffers.  If you PvP or WvW, you can already see that there is not enough cost for the opportunities in GW2 build design.  Builds with high mobility, sustain and damage exist, meaning that there is not enough trade-off already.  Limiting which skills can go in which slot is a design decision which creates opportunity cost.

 

Maybe ANet should rebrand Elite Skills as Lame Skills.  That would remove the expectation that these skills (and the slot they go in) need to be impactful.  Since so many of the so-called Elite Skills are not impactful, this seems fitting.

Edited by IndigoSundown.5419
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Not going to comment on your "overwhelmingly approved" comment, I am sure you would have provided adequate citation for it if you thought it true.   There is value in choice, even if you do

That is just an arbitrary distinction you are bringing forth, especially since HoT and PoF elite specializations.   There are a ton of utility skills which mirror healing skills, while heali

Ironically, the most often brought up counterargument (already showing in this thread, btw) has always been "it would be too OP". Which (coupled with the fact how often this suggestion is being brough

50 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

In the "1000 builds" one, you will almost certainly find that out of all those builds, for each situation only 2-3 builds (not 5% of builds) are worth using.

 

Wrong, at best you can argue that the number of builds which are "the best" at their given job is in the single digits but every build that in terms of performance is at least relative to them is still "worth using" as long as there is a meaningful difference in gameplay.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If you have 5 builds, each with their own synergy, that each are meant for the exact same role, then there's no way they will be equal to each other, unless their mechanics are very, very similar and the "choice" between them is purely fictional.

 

They don't need to be equal, their performance being relative to each other would be more than sufficient as long as the gameplay is different. The issue people have with "bad builds" in PuGs isn't that people are not playing "the optimal build" but that the thing many randoms use instead isn't even remotely close to it.

 

 

58 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It does not omit gameplay.

 

Except it does as it assumes that everything that's not "the optimum" = not a "proper choice".

 

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Reality does not support you here, because. funnily enough it actually works in other games. Without significantly dumbing down the gameplay.

 

Simple math alone is enough to prove this statement wrong. I've seen my fair share of DPS charts and the "massive gaps between players" cannot be explained by simply "choosing the wrong traits". There is a reason why "11111" is such a meme and there will always be a massive gap in performance as long as "using proper rotations" has any amount of complexity and meaningful impact on player performance. If other games didn't need to "dumb down" their gameplay then their gameplay wasn't that complex to begin with.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Simple math alone is enough to prove this statement wrong. I've seen my fair share of DPS charts and the "massive gaps between players" cannot be explained by simply "choosing the wrong traits". There is a reason why "11111" is such a meme and there will always be a massive gap in performance as long as "using proper rotations" has any amount of complexity and meaningful impact on player performance. If other games didn't need to "dumb down" their gameplay then their gameplay wasn't that complex to begin with.

Sorry, but you apparently have no idea how big the gap is in GW2 and how it compares to other games.

 

Sure, the skill is one part of the equation - but the differences in skill are pretty much the same within the populations of most more popular MMORPGs. The rest comes from how the game design enhances or compresses those skill differences. 

 

The "massive gap in dps" between good and bad players means something completely different in different games. Gaps that would be considered massive in some GW2 competitors and made you a completely terrible player, in gw2 itself would still be within "acceptable" range. On the other hand, the gap between the average and top in gw2 is much bigger than is even possible in some other games unless you're literally not pressing anything at all.

 

Example: in FF XIV, if we consider the damage of the absolute top players (top 1%) to be 100%, then the middle of the pack (the 50-percenters) would do around 50 to 66% of that, and the absolute worst (the bottom 10%) around 25 to 33% of that. In gw2 that "50-percenter" would do around 4k damage. The bottom 10% would likely oscillate around 1k. The gameplay of FF XIV is by no way "dumbed down".

Need i say more?

 

TL/DR;

your "simple math" does not reflect reality.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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5 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

You have 7 talents rows, each with 3 abilities to choose from. You can technically add 7 new abilities to your spellbar if you desire.

Fair but thats not much compaired to gw2, and each expac just changes them up instead of adding more.

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9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice also, that it never promotes casual play. The benefits of freeform build system always go to the hardcore players only.

Thats not true the benefits of  extensive build diversity are felt by everyone who cares about them, hardcore players will gravitate towards the optimal so for them theres no such thing as build diversity.

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

What it does is influence game design. And here, it can go in two directions. 

In a game revolving around instanced content with skill/effectiveness requirements, it actively hinders casuals, because it practically forces you to assume a hardcore approach in order to be able to play the main content of the game.

Built diversity practicaly goes against tightly balanced hardcore encounters because theres too many variable for developers to take into acount when making, balancing encounters.

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

In a game like gw2 however, it does the opposite, hindering hardcore gameplay. It does that by keeping a huge majority of players out of more demanding content, which starves that content of players (and, in the end result, of dev resources).

Its perception and has very little to do with actual balance and encounter design that keeps players away, hardcore aka meta builds ofter are dps oriented and assume that you go for a speedkill but what doesnt get mentioned is how powerful support builds are that can literally carry your group to a clear with a respectable dps output as well.

 

However the problem with gw2 raids is that their cadense is incredibly poor and the raids themselves often underwhelming, in ff14 ultimates and savage raids, which are league harder than anything gw2 has put out, where you need to play a class at its best has very good apricipation (and its not a matter of accesibility because the skill lvl you need to perform in ultimates is leagues above some of the hardest builds in gw2). That and also some ppl dont care about hard endgame and just want to see the content. Balance has nothing to do, if anything provides super powerful and often easy options for less skilled players to play with.

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

It's exactly the freeform build system (technically aimed at hardcore players) that is the main culprit behind the failure of raids in gw2.

The freedome is aimed at everyone because the bar is often low enoigh to allow for various lvls of it to exist. Yes some builds ppl will come up with will be that bad to where you might not be able to clear raids with them but that bar is way lower than ppl think.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure, the skill is one part of the equation - but the differences in skill are pretty much the same within the populations of most more popular MMORPGs. The rest comes from how the game design enhances or compresses those skill differences. 

 

And generally the more emphasis the game puts on the action aspect of it the more these differences in skill are going to matter with GW2 putting more focus on this part than most of the other MMOs. All you're really saying here is that skill is a factor that can be mitigated which is what I was saying earlier.

 

 

22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The "massive gap in dps" between good and bad players means something completely different in different games. Gaps that would be considered massive in some GW2 competitors and made you a completely terrible player, in gw2 itself would still be within "acceptable" range. On the other hand, the gap between the average and top in gw2 is much bigger than is even possible in some other games unless you're literally not pressing anything at all.

 

Example: in FF XIV, if we consider the damage of the absolute top players (top 1%) to be 100%, then the middle of the pack (the 50-percenters) would do around 50 to 66% of that, and the absolute worst (the bottom 10%) around 25 to 33% of that. In gw2 that "50-percenter" would do around 4k damage. The bottom 10% would likely oscillate around 1k. The gameplay of FF XIV is by no way "dumbed down".

 

Means nothing if you can't articulate how the gap in player performance comes from a difference in build choices rather than from other factors. For what it's worth FF XIV might just do a better job at mitigating other factors. There are games that force players to run specific builds with almost no leeway and yet they still have a much wider gap between the top and the average players than even GW2 does.

 

As I said it's easy to know how much performance someone is missing out by not taking trait XY and like it or not but it just doesn't nearly add up to the difference we see in praxis meaning that there are other more important factors here. Your "your "simple math" does not reflect reality" means nothing as you didn't debunk my statement.

 

 

20 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Yes some builds ppl will come up with will be that bad to where you might not be able to clear raids with them but that bar is way lower than ppl think.

 

Exactly, there are already multiple videos that prove that raids can be cleared with the whole group using what would normally be considered "terrible builds".

Edited by Tails.9372
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3 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Thats not true the benefits of  extensive build diversity are felt by everyone who cares about them, hardcore players will gravitate towards the optimal so for them theres no such thing as build diversity.

Sure, hardcores care about finding out most optimal builds, but they do care about builds. Casuals, for the most part, do not.

 

Perhaps you remember the info Anet once released, about the original trait system, where they admitted that a significant number of players (don;t remember exactly how much, but it was around 1/4 to 1/3) never set the attributes/selected the traits? And after they changed the system to keep reminding the players to do so, many players do that once and then forget about it. Just as significant number of players still do not put any deeper thought in selecting stats for their gear pieces, or in having a sensible runeset (or even having a runeset at all, instead of just having random runes in each piece of gear). Do you really think that those players benefit from extensive diversity, or care about it?

 

3 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Built diversity practicaly goes against tightly balanced hardcore encounters because theres too many variable for developers to take into acount when making, balancing encounters.

Sure. So, the end result is that devs either balance for the lowest common denominator, or balance for the extreme cases. In first case, hardcores suffer because the content becomes way too easy for them to have fun. In second case, everyone else that is not running those extreme case builds need not apply.

Or, devs try to satisfy both groups with moderate balancing, ending up with a content that is too easy for hardcores, but too difficult for casuals.

 

3 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Its perception and has very little to do with actual balance and encounter design that keeps players away, hardcore aka meta builds ofter are dps oriented and assume that you go for a speedkill but what doesnt get mentioned is how powerful support builds are that can literally carry your group to a clear with a respectable dps output as well.

Powerful support builds are part of the same consideration. A mediocre healer build is not going to carry anyone.

 

 

3 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

However the problem with gw2 raids is that their cadense is incredibly poor

Cadence is incredibly poor, because, in large part due to reasons i mentioned, they happen to be both less popular, and harder to balance. Also, FF XIV's savages are carried by the existence of normal (casual) version practically everyone plays - but such a version in GW2 would probably end up being too difficult for majority of players, in large part due to that freeform build system design.

 

3 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

The freedome is aimed at everyone because the bar is often low enoigh to allow for various lvls of it to exist.

The bigger the gap in efficiency, the more narrow is the player group that will be satisfied with a difficulty of a content, and the more different difficulty tiers you need to cover all of the community. Which, btw, assumes that the effectiveness rises on linear basis alongside skill and buildcraft understanding , which happens to be completely untrue (the system used results in massive jumps in effectiveness between groups, with most players near the top or bottom, and next to noone in the "middle" area)

 

3 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Yes some builds ppl will come up with will be that bad to where you might not be able to clear raids with them but that bar is way lower than ppl think.

No. It's the gaps that are being created by the build system that are much bigger than you think.

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On 5/31/2021 at 3:58 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

This request has been overwhelmingly approved by the community every time it's been brought up. I don't get why they're so stubborn about it. There are only a few elite skills to choose from, and while some can be fun, some professions are stuck with either underwhelming or unfun "choices". 

Game balance.  Despite popular opinion, ANet knows more about this than the average player.

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As much as I would like to see an additional heal inserted into the elite slot for my Condi Fire Weaver, I also realize that things would start to get pretty stinky real fast. Most Open World content is already a breeze with this build. Imagine it becoming super tanky to boot. I can see where it would also make things frustrating for PvPers. I think for now, things are pretty ok as they are. A few tweaks to various classes might not hurt but this request is a giant sledgehammer to the system.

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20 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure, hardcores care about finding out most optimal builds, but they do care about builds. Casuals, for the most part, do not.

 

Perhaps you remember the info Anet once released, about the original trait system, where they admitted that a significant number of players (don;t remember exactly how much, but it was around 1/4 to 1/3) never set the attributes/selected the traits? And after they changed the system to keep reminding the players to do so, many players do that once and then forget about it. Just as significant number of players still do not put any deeper thought in selecting stats for their gear pieces, or in having a sensible runeset (or even having a runeset at all, instead of just having random runes in each piece of gear). Do you really think that those players benefit from extensive diversity, or care about it?

Sure, but there exist always a number of ppl that come here on on reddit or everywhere where one mentions gw1 and 2 to complain about the lack of build diversity and how they could come up with so many diff builds. Truth is someone might mever change their build but build diversity also allows them to make in the first place the build they want.

 

Quote

Sure. So, the end result is that devs either balance for the lowest common denominator, or balance for the extreme cases. In first case, hardcores suffer because the content becomes way too easy for them to have fun. In second case, everyone else that is not running those extreme case builds need not apply.

Or, devs try to satisfy both groups with moderate balancing, ending up with a content that is too easy for hardcores, but too difficult for casuals.

Bit true in this case the devs have tried to make everyone happy and i has clearly backfired.

Quote

 

Powerful support builds are part of the same consideration. A mediocre healer build is not going to carry anyone.

Yes but unless these powerful support builds also bring more dmg than having meta juiced dps builds they arent meta, they are viable by the existing scale various sites set.

Quote

 

Cadence is incredibly poor, because, in large part due to reasons i mentioned, they happen to be both less popular, and harder to balance. Also, FF XIV's savages are carried by the existence of normal (casual) version practically everyone plays - but such a version in GW2 would probably end up being too difficult for majority of players, in large part due to that freeform build system design.

Gw2 could use easy mode raids but ff14 wasnt deterred by extremely hard content that only few compairetively would tackle, else they wouldnt make ultimates.

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7 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Yes but unless these powerful support builds also bring more dmg than having meta juiced dps builds they arent meta, they are viable by the existing scale various sites set.

That's not even close to the truth. One of the best builds for carrying ever was chaos chrono - it had next to no damage. And was also top meta build at the time. Another two builds that can be very, very useful if you're carrying are healer scourge and healer tempest. Those bring in even less dps than chaos chrono did.

 

7 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Gw2 could use easy mode raids but ff14 wasnt deterred by extremely hard content that only few compairetively would tackle, else they wouldnt make ultimates.

Notice, though, that the ultimates are a content that is always the first to get axed if there are some problems. The Shadowbringers expansion cycle was supposed to have 2 of ultimate encounters, but in the end had only one, because the other one was shelved.

 

Notice also, that ultimates are even possible only because FF XIV devs know exactly what the players are capable of, and what their limits are. And that is only possible due to players having next to no choice in how to build their character (there are few choices, but they are extremely minor - as in, they affect the effectiveness by around 1-2% at most). FF XIV devs plan even for such things as the rotation players should be doing to get the max effectiveness out of their class. GW2 devs cannot do that at all. The game design makes it practically impossible.

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In all honesty I am more in favour of every core class getting new Elite skills that complete their currently incomplete utility skill types.

We all know there are classes out there without an Elite skill for certain skill types.. this should have been remedied years ago if you ask me.

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