Staff Mirage still needs a nerfby a significant amount, Dueling Illusions Axe/Torch+Pistol Mirage is supposed to be the dps class right but there's no way it can compete.

[mordefelix.5826]

This with UPDATED arcdps and not even a good rotation imo
https://dps.report/4hMt-20210530-134443_twins 32k+ with bad vuln. 
https://dps.report/ajCa-20210530-151933_sh 51k Just broken.
Let's also remember stackings at least two mirages gives overcapped alacrity. But we don't need to worry about that since you want to stack STAFF mirages ANYWAYS for max dps.

LET ME ADD THIS IS WHAT ANET WANTED BUT DID NOT DO.

Mesmer

We're excited by how enthusiastic everyone is for the staff-wielding mirage. With the recent improvements to Chaos traits, the torment condition's performance in PvE, and the changes to the staff skills themselves, staff is currently overperforming as a boon support weapon. We'd like to keep axe-and-torch as the DPS build, and ease the performance of the mirage's staff down into a competitive support build, which means lowering its overall damage output (and confusion uptime).
 

Edited June 1, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[Infusion.7149]

Agreed, but does this need its own thread? Why not continue the one from May 11?

[mordefelix.5826]

40 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Agreed, but does this need its own thread? Why not continue the one from May 11?

I mean I could, but people even now are STILL claiming staff mirage is somehow not a good dps class anymore after the may 25th nerf. I just want this given enough attention that the nerfs haven't done nearly enough at all

Edited May 30, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[necromaniac.7629]

Not only did this build completely over-shadow axe mirage, but also condi chrono, literally only because of the ambush skill as of right now, this build is an utter disrespect to condi chrono, not even scepter's ambush which does almost the same thing is half as good, plz anet just revert staff exactly to how it was prior.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I hate the inconsistent profession design between buffers.

 

Alacrigade: Needs boon duration to be effective

Quickness Scrapper: Needs toon duration to be effective.

Quickness Chrono: No boon duration needed

Alacrimirage: No boon duration needed.

Quickbrand:  Needs a rune set

 

I'm going to be "that guy" and say I pondered this in the past, but I really did.  The introduction of Diviners creates an issue in balancing:  Either you make all boons inept to encourage people to use Diviners, or you make all boons good so Diviners is superfluous.  The recent balance patch has given us no clear message, aside from that there's no internal consistency on this  

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

I’ll keep this professional. Can we please not travel down this road again? You made your point in the other thread. Asking a company to nerf your own class, for any reason, never ends well for anyone.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590

[Sifu.9745]

Why nerfing Staff even more? Do you really want to be limited to Axe only as condi Mirage? Also Staff is more melee than ranged weapon, therefore i don't see a reason why nerfing it even further? You need to stay in melee range to get benefits from AA buffs etc. Why don't you complain about power Greatsword? I guess you don't mind doing superior dmg with power ranged weapon but you don't want to have a good condi ranged weapon? I really don't understand these condition haters. Finally we get a decent "ranged" condi option but no, you want to stick with Axe only?

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Staff is good as it is now! For once they made staff fun and useful! The nerfs that they made was understandable, but more nerfs is going to make staff useless again! No thanx... lets for once keep something good for mirage, since it's already been too much nerfed with the one-dodge nonsense. Staff actually helps a great deal with surviving (from a mirage point of view) in WvW aswell, so NOPE no more nerfs to staff... 

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Why nerfing Staff even more? Do you really want to be limited to Axe only as condi Mirage? Also Staff is more melee than ranged weapon, therefore i don't see a reason why nerfing it even further? You need to stay in melee range to get benefits from AA buffs etc. Why don't you complain about power Greatsword? I guess you don't mind doing superior dmg with power ranged weapon but you don't want to have a good condi ranged weapon? I really don't understand these condition haters. Finally we get a decent "ranged" condi option but no, you want to stick with Axe only?

 

the problem is staff is super strong and also Utilises a full DPS Set up unlike other Alac builds.

 

the problem is a Alacrity build is doing 50k DPS. reason Alac mirage does sooo much damage is Partly because It doesnt have to wear boon duration gear like Alac renegade. It does alac while wearing full viper gear

 

so it IS a full DPS build.

 

but lets not pretend Mirage wouldnt still be fine if the DPS Output was 42k

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Jijimuge.4675]

Given the huge support/utility potential of staff, I don't think it should be the main "ranged condi option".

IMO, if people want a ranged condi option for mesmer/mirage, sceptre (and perhaps also the F2 shatter) would be the place to ask for buffs, as sceptre provides little to no group utility.

[Kondor.2904]

3 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Why nerfing Staff even more? Do you really want to be limited to Axe only as condi Mirage? Also Staff is more melee than ranged weapon, therefore i don't see a reason why nerfing it even further? You need to stay in melee range to get benefits from AA buffs etc. Why don't you complain about power Greatsword? I guess you don't mind doing superior dmg with power ranged weapon but you don't want to have a good condi ranged weapon? I really don't understand these condition haters. Finally we get a decent "ranged" condi option but no, you want to stick with Axe only?

Exactly what are you gaining by being melee with staff ? Scuffed fury uptime from bounces ? Yeah, super important for the build /s The reason you stay melee with staff is the chaos armor blind+confusion procs, as well as group boon coverage.

Greatsword is not a superior dmg weapon for power builds. It has its niche, and even then it has a more sophisticated rotation where you want to minimize the amount of time you spend auto attacking since it's omega weak cuz ranged (you know, a trade off).

Staff has always supposed to be a monkey stick with the sole utility purpose of kiting and minor boon supply. It made total sense it dealt less damage than more risky melee axe or extremely niche confusion oriented scepter with NO utility. And it did not make any sense to buff it to such an extent that it does not only deal more damage than more risk or niche oriented options, but it actually supplies one of the rarest boons in the game better than the original spec that was designed around it omegalul.

Like, I get it, some people looked it up and enjoyed playing no brain staff/staff "spam 1" build before the patch, and were utterly happy to know they can now not just chill and spam 1 but actually deal proper damage AND share 25 might + alacrity, but that's not ok for the rest of the players. Seriously, how dumb can a build be that it becomes more efficient the less skills you press. Come on, it's not a mobile afk game. 

If devs thought staff was in a scuffed spot prior to the patch (which imo it was not, aside from maybe couple UTILITY skills), the weapon should have had its skills properly reworked not just buffed up to the stratosphere. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Kondor.2904

[Veprovina.4876]

Mesmers are never going to be good again if the community always has a problem with whatever Anet does.

If mesmers are the ones asking for nerfs, we already lost and Mesmer is going to be trash forever.

 

But if they maybe make the Staff a boon/utility weapon, and useful in WvW (with 2 dodges!!!), and buff Axe to what it once was, it might actually be good. But they'd really need to redesign what Staff 3 does, and make it so it applies some other boons, maybe even boonstrip or clenses - plus - redesign staff traits to reflect it being a support weapon.

 

Because this is going nowhere. They buff staff damage - mesmers complain. They give staff alacrity - mesmers complain. Mesmer finally reaches a semblence of being good - mesmers complain.

 

Can we al just stop complaining and be thankful that at least one mesmer build can be top tier? It's fine when other classes are top tier but mesmers can't be - god forbid. But it's even worse than that - it's self defeating attitude that will lead mesmer to beyond trash because anet isn't going to overthink this like the people on the forums do - they're just going to meganerf everything without thinking again and you all will go back to complaining how mesmer is trash.

 

Think about what you're doing.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

4 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Mesmers are never going to be good again if the community always has a problem with whatever Anet does.

If mesmers are the ones asking for nerfs, we already lost and Mesmer is going to be trash forever.

 

But if they maybe make the Staff a boon/utility weapon, and useful in WvW (with 2 dodges!!!), and buff Axe to what it once was, it might actually be good. But they'd really need to redesign what Staff 3 does, and make it so it applies some other boons, maybe even boonstrip or clenses - plus - redesign staff traits to reflect it being a support weapon.

 

Because this is going nowhere. They buff staff damage - mesmers complain. They give staff alacrity - mesmers complain. Mesmer finally reaches a semblence of being good - mesmers complain.

 

Can we al just stop complaining and be thankful that at least one mesmer build can be top tier? It's fine when other classes are top tier but mesmers can't be - god forbid. But it's even worse than that - it's self defeating attitude that will lead mesmer to beyond trash because anet isn't going to overthink this like the people on the forums do - they're just going to meganerf everything without thinking again and you all will go back to complaining how mesmer is trash.

 

Think about what you're doing.

I totally agree with you! I seriously dont get why mesmer players has to complain about this! For once our profession is doing good, and we have to destroy it. And then we whine again when Anet listens and nerfs us even more... Dont get it...

 

Is it an easy build to go with staff/condi? Yes it is, but you decide for yourself how you want to play this game. I try to use my rotations as much as possible and not only relying on staff all the time, and that helps me alot. The difference staff makes for me is that it actually boosts me up with boons etc. which helps when I change weapons. That actually helps alot since we only have one dodge in WvW and PvP (when going mirage).

[Veprovina.4876]

2 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

I totally agree with you! I seriously dont get why mesmer players has to complain about this! For once our profession is doing good, and we have to destroy it. And then we whine again when Anet listens and nerfs us even more... Dont get it...

 

Is it an easy build to go with staff/condi? Yes it is, but you decide for yourself how you want to play this game. I try to use my rotations as much as possible and not only relying on staff all the time, and that helps me alot. The difference staff makes for me is that it actually boosts me up with boons etc. which helps when I change weapons. That actually helps alot since we only have one dodge in WvW and PvP (when going mirage).

It's so frustrating to ask for Mesmer buffs for years only for mesmer players themselves to sabotage it because of stupid reasons.

 

And what's going to happen? Anet is again going to nerf us to the ground, this time permanently, and we have no one but ourselves to blame.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

10 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

It's so frustrating to ask for Mesmer buffs for years only for mesmer players themselves to sabotage it because of stupid reasons.

 

And what's going to happen? Anet is again going to nerf us to the ground, this time permanently, and we have no one but ourselves to blame.

And I dont want to hear any complaints if Anet complies and nerfs us to the ground, since this time mesmer players themselves brought this up on us! It's just sad and ironic...

[Veprovina.4876]

4 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

And I dont want to hear any complaints if Anet complies and nerfs us to the ground, since this time mesmer players themselves brought this up on us! It's just sad and ironic...

Oh i'm going to complain my kitten off!

But not about Anet.

I'm going to complain about the Mesmer "community"... 😞

[AshkyLicious.4729]

1 minute ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Oh i'm going to complain my kitten off!

But not about Anet.

I'm going to complain about the Mesmer "community"... 😞

I was referring to the backstabbers in this case 😉 since they are the ones who are big hypocrites if they complain and whine about mesmer being useless in every mode again (besides raids)... 

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

I was referring to the backstabbers in this case 😉 since they are the ones who are big hypocrites if they complain and whine about mesmer being useless in every mode again (besides raids)... 

Yeah, i got that, i just said i'm going to complain about those now rather than complaining about Anet like i usually did.

If there's more nerfs - we deserve them now because we can't be greatful when things are getting good.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

You'll not be alone, I'll complain about the mesmer community aswell, since anet actually did something good for us for once! This time its our own who are ruining everything...

[Veprovina.4876]

5 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

You'll not be alone, I'll complain about the mesmer community aswell, since anet actually did something good for us for once! This time its our own who are ruining everything...

Exactly! Ever since the patch all i read are complaints...

How??? Why people, why???

Edited May 31, 2021 by Veprovina.4876

[AshkyLicious.4729]

4 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Exactly! Ever since the patch all i read are complaints...

How??? Why people, why???

Yeah... people are mind numbing seriously 🥴👈

[Curunen.8729]

They could just reduce clone ambush condi duration, then buff staff 3 to do something useful. Of course, exact numbers to be figured out etc...

 

Staff 3 is currently one of the most useless skills and further cements staff into being a 1111 spam. On the other hand they did an amazing job changing chaos armour to apply blind and 3 confusion (feels like traited F2 almost), so just need to have staff 3 do something useful and it spreads out the actions required to apply damage.

 

But they need to be careful because any other spec than mirage would suffer from severe baseline staff nerfs (eg what they did with clone auto) whereas mirage is almost unaffected due to the incredibly easy and frequent access to mirage cloak in pve, such that clones are ambushing most of the time anyway.

 

So for the staff auto nerf, instead of just axing (lol) clone condi down to 2 seconds, they could have added 1 stack of confusion for 5s on the first hit of the player's auto (so the first hit does 5s torment and 5s confusion). Small change in redistribution of damage application, but it further encourages the player to land their auto attack.

Similar thing can be done for ambush - again reducing duration from clones but increasing eg stacks from the player.

 

This might also help set a scene for returning the second dodge in competitive modes - if the player gets rewarded for landing their ambush rather than ignoring all the other things going on in combat apart from dodging, while the clones do the work.

[Sifu.9745]

3 hours ago, Kondor.2904 said:

Exactly what are you gaining by being melee with staff ?

Well, you get Fury AND Might from AA.

Chaos Armor: melee.

Chaos Storm: melee, to get full benefits from this spell such as self buffs + Phase Retreat into Chaos Storm to get Chaos Armor etc.

Sure you can stay in 900 to 1200 range all the time but that would make Staff less useful.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Sifu.9745

[dandamanno.4136]

29 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

They could just reduce clone ambush condi duration, then buff staff 3 to do something useful. Of course, exact numbers to be figured out etc...

 

Staff 3 is currently one of the most useless skills and further cements staff into being a 1111 spam. On the other hand they did an amazing job changing chaos armour to apply blind and 3 confusion (feels like traited F2 almost), so just need to have staff 3 do something useful and it spreads out the actions required to apply damage.

 

But they need to be careful because any other spec than mirage would suffer from severe baseline staff nerfs (eg what they did with clone auto) whereas mirage is almost unaffected due to the incredibly easy and frequent access to mirage cloak in pve, such that clones are ambushing most of the time anyway.

 

So for the staff auto nerf, instead of just axing (lol) clone condi down to 2 seconds, they could have added 1 stack of confusion for 5s on the first hit of the player's auto (so the first hit does 5s torment and 5s confusion). Small change in redistribution of damage application, but it further encourages the player to land their auto attack.

Similar thing can be done for ambush - again reducing duration from clones but increasing eg stacks from the player.

 

This might also help set a scene for returning the second dodge in competitive modes - if the player gets rewarded for landing their ambush rather than ignoring all the other things going on in combat apart from dodging, while the clones do the work.

 

They could have put the Alacrity on Staff 3, maybe around 8 seconds. Traited Staff 3 is 14.5 second CD, the 8s Alacrity brings it down to 12.5 seconds by itself. A little boon duration and you've got perma-alacrity support.

 

Also drop the Vulnerability and throw some burning on it to give staff 3 some good condition.

[Katary.7096]

Chaos Vortex (PvE) torment, confusion and bleeding durations down to 6 seconds, alacrity to 2 seconds and might stacks to 5. Hard to believe that the team which made a skill this overloaded with effects also thought quickness Scrapper would be fine with 2 seconds of quickness on superspeed application.