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Staff Mirage still needs a nerfby a significant amount, Dueling Illusions Axe/Torch+Pistol Mirage is supposed to be the dps class right but there's no way it can compete.


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Yay more nerf mesmers threads! did you all missed them? Well anet must of really missed these threads in the last year, to want to buff the most braindead part of condi mirage that they went out of their way to nerf the class piece by piece for years in the first place. Oh yeah and lets forget that axe is the actual specialty weapon for mirage and nerf it's torment too. But oh wait, pve is all that matters I guess, carry on with the arguments over a couple K's of dps.

 

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Mesmers are never going to be good again if the community always has a problem with whatever Anet does. If mesmers are the ones asking for nerfs, we already lost and Mesmer is going to be trash f

Why nerfing Staff even more? Do you really want to be limited to Axe only as condi Mirage? Also Staff is more melee than ranged weapon, therefore i don't see a reason why nerfing it even further? You

I’ll keep this professional. Can we please not travel down this road again? You made your point in the other thread. Asking a company to nerf your own class, for any reason, never ends well for anyone

Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:


well.....

 

if EoD gives every profession one or more ‘2 button, face rolling, broken builds’ then that would be the new norm. And suddenly the Staff Mirage would be part of the gang not an outlier. 
 

this route is not likely though as it would step on many other profession builds and require balancing those up to a new level.  I expect the new eSpecs to offer equal or stronger performance when the expac drops to draw players to those new builds. Not broken levels of usefulness. 

 

other then that, I generally agree with you,  the new Mesmer eSpec will not change how Mirage works today. It might draw attention away from it but until something changes with Staff Mirage itself (or via crossover from other profession or game changes) it will continue to be exactly what it is today. 

The issue with this is that you’re using comparison damage to state that something is broken.This is not the only thing that determines something being broken. If literally every class did 50k dps on SH, that would just mean everything is broken. Having every class do 50k would actually make raids already so much easier than it already is. The issue still stands that its completely not fun to have something like that. It doesn't negate the logic that have something broken now doesn't make it any less broken than something that comes later. Balancing does not come purely from comparison to other classes, it also comes from how badly it trivializes content. And well if you've seen the numerous logs I've supplied. It trivializes content to an extreme degree. One analogous example would be like if in League of Legends, all champions one shot each other in the same exact way, then where's the fun and challenge in that? I press 1 button click on a champion and the enemy champion dies and they can do exactly the same thing to me. The game would actually die.

Edited by mordefelix.5826
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

The issue with this is that you’re using comparison damage to state that something is broken.This is not the only thing that determines something being broken. If literally every class did 50k dps on SH, that would just mean everything is broken. Having every class do 50k would actually make raids already so much easier than it already is. The issue still stands that its completely not fun to have something like that. It doesn't negate the logic that have something broken now doesn't make it any less broken than something that comes later. Balancing does not come purely from comparison to other classes, it also comes from how badly it trivializes content. And well if you've seen the numerous logs I've supplied. It trivializes content to an extreme degree. One analogous example would be like if in League of Legends, all champions one shot each other in the same exact way, then where's the fun and challenge in that? I press 1 button click on a champion and the enemy champion dies and they can do exactly the same thing to me. The game would actually die.

 

I am actually comparing the totality of the profession, within the context of other professions and game modes.  At least, that is where my thoughts have been.

 

DPS is a singular portion of this equation, being able to heal, buff, debuff, cleanse, and even player sustain is also part of that conversation.  When a single build combines top DPS and top Support options it pushes out the other builds, and to your point, it does trivialize content.  My concern is that it trivializes the rest of the profession and build options, which leads into the game of 'you aren't using a meta build, you don't get to play' when trying to join a group.

 

I would suggest that for most players, what we are talking about in this thread will be of little to no importance over the time they play the game.  This does affect a very small slice of the player base in a meaningful way, although the changes do affect all players.  Case in point, the 'nerfs' to Chrono traits amount to a very small DPS loss except in fairly specific situations.  With the Mirage, some players will end up in situations where they can maximize that DPS and Support, but many will never be in a place to be that player with 50k DPS all the time in all game modes (like that is even possible).

 

Which comes back to those logs, which, I agree it is egregious to have 1 profession outperforming in a specific circumstance.  It trivializes the content, and that is broken.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Maybe borderline unusable would be more correct. It is possible. But so is failing again and again and being asked to go guardian. 

If they do tweak the staff they should buff the torment and lower the confusion. They can lower its bench beneath axe mirage without screwing it over in modes where bosses dont attack as fast.

Ok so.... I got the logs. I was not failing over and over. All of these were one pulls, as messy as they may be.

https://dps.report/c2iY-20210603-205109_ai

https://dps.report/7fTN-20210603-203123_mama

https://dps.report/50IU-20210603-203551_siax

https://dps.report/tdSq-20210603-203942_enso

https://dps.report/9oXI-20210603-201907_skor

https://dps.report/muhB-20210603-202348_arriv

https://dps.report/8HVx-20210603-202743_arkk

Yeah its damage sucks, but once again power chrono was never good in fractals lmao. I don't know what people you run with that your group fails over and over just because you went power chrono. As unfun as power chrono is, it's easily usable. Your claim that its borederline un-usable is just false. AND THIS is in a meta where condi does so much better in fractals lmao. 

Edited by mordefelix.5826
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50 minutes ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

Ok so.... I got the logs. I was not failing over and over. All of these were one pulls, as messy as they may be.

https://dps.report/c2iY-20210603-205109_ai

https://dps.report/7fTN-20210603-203123_mama

https://dps.report/50IU-20210603-203551_siax

https://dps.report/tdSq-20210603-203942_enso

https://dps.report/9oXI-20210603-201907_skor

https://dps.report/muhB-20210603-202348_arriv

https://dps.report/8HVx-20210603-202743_arkk

Yeah its damage sucks, but once again power chrono was never good in fractals lmao. I don't know what people you run with that your group fails over and over just because you went power chrono. As unfun as power chrono is, it's easily usable. Your claim that its borederline un-usable is just false. AND THIS is in a meta where condi does so much better in fractals lmao. 

Well for starters you have alacrigade. Try STM in place of a firebrand, the hfb if you really want to push it.

But even if we were just talking about the power version of chrono, it's false for you. I am not you. I'm at least 5k behind sc benchmarks even with the perfect comp. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Well for starters you have alacrigade. Try STM in place of a firebrand, the hfb if you really want to push it.

But even if we were just talking about the power version of chrono, it's false for you. I am not you. I'm at least 5k behind sc benchmarks even with the perfect comp. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

8 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Maybe borderline unusable would be more correct. It is possible. But so is failing again and again and being asked to go guardian. 

If they do tweak the staff they should buff the torment and lower the confusion. They can lower its bench beneath axe mirage without screwing it over in modes where bosses dont attack as fast.

Ok wait but you literally said chrono is borderline unusable 8 hours ago in this post right above LIKE literally. Are you unable to see what your post said or something? Chrono is NOT unusable and failing again and again is on you and/or your group, that doesn't mean Chrono is unplayable that's just literally on you and being able to play easier classes is just that alone, it doesn't make a class unplayable just because you can't play it yourself.

 

Edited by mordefelix.5826
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

 

Ok wait but you literally said chrono is borderline unusable 8 hours ago in this post right above LIKE literally. Are you unable to see what your post said or something? Chrono is NOT unusable and failing again and again is on you and/or your group, that doesn't mean Chrono is unplayable that's just literally on you and being able to play easier classes is just that alone, it doesn't make a class unplayable just because you can't play it yourself.

 

Having to play staff mirage is also on you and your group, see how fun that is as an argument? I'm glad you found some margin of utility. It's not relevant to the majority of players. 

 

Still waiting on the logs with StM instead of a quickbrand btw. 

Edited by Daniel Handler.4816
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Having to play staff mirage is also on you and your group, see how fun that is as an argument? I'm glad you found some margin of utility. It's not relevant to the majority of players. 

 

Still waiting on the logs with StM instead of a quickbrand btw.

What in the world does stm have anything to do with this? Stm chrono hasn't been used in literally a years in any sense of the fractals whatsoever. You're literally bringing up a point that has nothing to do with your original point You were talking about Chrono being unusable, STM chrono can give quickness just fine but you were talking about Chrono being unusable at all, you never specified STM chrono as unusable. Literally I cannot make any sense of what you're saying. You asked about Chrono, so I used chrono in fractals and demonstrated it's ACTUALLY usable. Your original point was that Chrono was not usable, it clearly is. You were talking about how this wide nerf about Dangertime and Chronophantasma made this class unplayable so one can only deduce you were talking about DPS. Chronophantasma never affected STM chrono? Someone please help lol is this how half of GW2 forums operates like?

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

What in the world does stm have anything to do with this? Stm chrono hasn't been used in literally a years in any sense of the fractals whatsoever. You're literally bringing up a point that has nothing to do with your original point You were talking about Chrono being unusable. Yes staff mirage is on my group because it's literally the strongest thing in the game? Power chrono is not, but that doesn't make it unusable. This is actually Ardenwolfe's level of logic. 

 

Jesus christ. I said chrono. You've injected that only means power chrono.

And your argument amounts to git gud for power chrono. Which is great. And then some BS about STM never being used. By you I guess? 

 

If you are going to center this discussion entirely on your own experience and my difficulty with CMs as STM (and yes, power chrono) doesn't matter to you, then why should your group wanting to play the most meta builds matter to me? 

 

The only thing I can point out is again staff being better than axe imposes no difficulty onto you. 

Edited by Daniel Handler.4816
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Jesus christ. I said chrono. You've injected that only means power chrono.

And your argument amounts to git gud. 

 

My difficulty with CMs as STM, and yes power chrono, doesn't matter to you. Why should your group wanting to play the most meta builds matter to me? 

 

The only thing I can point out is again staff being better than axe imposes no difficulty onto you. 

But why would you bring power STM to fractals ? If you take STM that means you replace pug friendly Hfb, meaning you should have really quick phases,  which is kinda yikes for STM relying on constant clones generation, not even talking about the the need to constantly stack on you, also scuffed uptime of other boons, and yada yada. No sh#t you're struggling with pugs. 

 

Edited by Kondor.2904
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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

What in the world does stm have anything to do with this? Stm chrono hasn't been used in literally a years in any sense of the fractals whatsoever. You're literally bringing up a point that has nothing to do with your original point You were talking about Chrono being unusable, STM chrono can give quickness just fine but you were talking about Chrono being unusable at all, you never specified STM chrono as unusable. Literally I cannot make any sense of what you're saying. You asked about Chrono, so I used chrono in fractals and demonstrated it's ACTUALLY usable. Your original point was that Chrono was not usable, it clearly is. You were talking about how this wide nerf about Dangertime and Chronophantasma made this class unplayable so one can only deduce you were talking about DPS. Chronophantasma never affected STM chrono? Someone please help lol is this how half of GW2 forums operates like?

Nice edit. 

 

Almost like DT is/was used on STM builds. And chronophantasma is used on power and condi. But no i was clearly only talking about one build. 

Edited by Daniel Handler.4816
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

But why would you bring power STM to fractals ? If you take STM that means you replace pug friendly Hfb, meaning you should have really quick phases,  which is kinda yikes for STM relying on constant clones generation, not even talking about the the need to constantly stack on you, also scuffed uptime of other boons, and yada yada. No sh#t you're struggling with pugs. 

 

Why would anyone do anything? If the point is just to complete content then yes play hfb. But if the point is just to complete content why does this thread even exist? Why don't I start yelling at OP to find a group that will let him play axe mirage? No, because that line of thinking is unproductive. 

 

There are plenty of ways staff can be changed that won't drastically affect its bench in fractals. 

Edited by Daniel Handler.4816
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Why would anyone do anything? If the point is just to complete content then yes play hfb. But if the point is just to complete content why does this thread even exist? Why don't I start yelling at OP to find a group that will let him play axe mirage? No, because that line of thinking is unproductive. 

 

There are plenty of ways staff can be changed that won't drastically affect its bench in fractals. 

No, I'm just saying that you have other options that are less scuffed (still scuffed but less) for fractals setting. But you choose to play one that's more scuffed and then say "doesn't feel nice, too scuffed". That's almost if someone complained about ventari heal rev being awkward to play. 

I don't even get why people even bringup alac staff in the relation to fractals, where it: a) doesn't get to exploit its broken confusion stacking, b) is condi oriented and generally very slow for most encounters, c) has way less flexibility in terms of utility kit than alacren. Whether it gets nerfed or not, will hardly affect its place in fractals. 

Edited by Kondor.2904
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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

No, I'm just saying that you have other options that are less scuffed (still scuffed but less) for fractals setting. But you choose to play one that's more scuffed and then say "doesn't feel nice, too scuffed". That's almost if someone complained about ventari heal rev being awkward to play. 

I don't even get why people even bringup alac staff in the relation to fractals, where it: a) doesn't get to exploit its broken confusion stacking, b) is condi oriented and generally very slow for most encounters, c) has way less flexibility in terms of utility kit than alacren. Whether it gets nerfed or not, will hardly affect its place in fractals. 

This. This. Exactly why I don’t have zero idea why this is even being brought up. It does nothing to change or do anything in fractals.

Edited by mordefelix.5826
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kondor.2904 said:

But why would you bring power STM to fractals ? If you take STM that means you replace pug friendly Hfb, meaning you should have really quick phases,  which is kinda yikes for STM relying on constant clones generation, not even talking about the the need to constantly stack on you, also scuffed uptime of other boons, and yada yada. No sh#t you're struggling with pugs. 

 

LMAO, I didn’t want to say it like that but..... like yeah. He mentioned Chrono being unusable, why the heck would stm chrono be even thought of as an option. I have no idea why stm chrono has any relevance to any point he’s trying to make. I think I’ve got my fill of the kitten that is gw2 forums. Its truly a wasteland out here of some forbidden logic and oddly enough reddit has some more reasoned people lmao 😂 

Edited by mordefelix.5826
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10 hours ago, chrispy.7182 said:

Mirage staff without some Concentration or boon duration will not upkeep Alac 100% of the time. I don't know why people are saying it doesn't need some boon duration..... That isn't true. It also fails if the group needs to split or you get transported somewhere, since the alac barely lasts until your next Chaos Vortex, unless you add boon duration to help stack it.

To my knowledge, it doesn't.  What people aren't saying is that they're using desert distortion to spam a bunch of mirrors, which makes stacking alacrity much easier.  Aside from that the video I saw mentioned that you can get all of the concentration you need from the food and utility buff.  

 

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11 hours ago, Kondor.2904 said:

No, I'm just saying that you have other options that are less scuffed (still scuffed but less) for fractals setting. But you choose to play one that's more scuffed and then say "doesn't feel nice, too scuffed". That's almost if someone complained about ventari heal rev being awkward to play. 

I don't even get why people even bringup alac staff in the relation to fractals, where it: a) doesn't get to exploit its broken confusion stacking, b) is condi oriented and generally very slow for most encounters, c) has way less flexibility in terms of utility kit than alacren. Whether it gets nerfed or not, will hardly affect its place in fractals. 

This entire thread is literally OP complaining about wanting to play the harder build even though there is an easier and more competitive option. 

 

The relation was power chrono/stm wasn't even strong in fractals and was made worse, or in the case of the latter borderline unusable, to please raiders. I have no idea what they are going to do to fix staff mirage. I'm fine with confusion being tweaked if that's all they're doing. But if it is completely reverted, as some are calling for, it will absolutely affect its standing. 

 

 But again. OP doesn't seem to want to answer why anyone should care about him being pressured into playing staff mirage instead of axe, especially if he doesnt care about other people being pressured into playing things. 

Edited by Daniel Handler.4816
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

LMAO, I didn’t want to say it like that but..... like yeah. He mentioned Chrono being unusable, why the heck would stm chrono be even thought of as an option. I have no idea why stm chrono has any relevance to any point he’s trying to make. I think I’ve got my fill of the kitten that is gw2 forums. Its truly a wasteland out here of some forbidden logic and oddly enough reddit has some more reasoned people lmao 😂 

Do you understand you're a random dude on the Internet asking people to care about your problem? It's not even like I want staff to stay fully as is. I've suggested splitting fractals and raids. Or nerfing just confusion but not doing a full revert. And still you want to be antagonistic about everything. So kitten it.

Edited by Daniel Handler.4816
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Posted (edited)

Do you realize how ludicrous that sounds to suggest a skill split for fractals and raids? PvE is PvE. There's no split for instanced PvE in the API nor ingame.

As I stated above , the best option for them to change it is not to revert it (staff) but lower confusion output on the autoattack from clones and the player (possibly). Right now the damage on it is inline with other ranged attacks provided confusion doesn't proc and you have 3 clones up. Relocating confusion stacks to phantasmal warlock for example, would make warlock not a DPS loss (you just use it for clone generation right now).

P.S. a fully ranged weapon doing more damage than a melee one is not inline with their prior design goals. See scepter auto on guardian or staff overall on elementalist , among other examples.

 

Edited by Infusion.7149
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7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Do you understand you're a random dude on the Internet asking people to care about your problem? It's not even like I want staff to stay fully as is. I've suggested splitting fractals and raids. Or nerfing just confusion but not doing a full revert. And still you want to be antagonistic about everything. So kitten it.

Give this man an award.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

that's a bit silly. It's not like I agreed with 100% of what you said either. But yeah.

Here's the thing about forums and discussion. We don't have to agree 100% about anything. Heck, I can even disagree with you 99% of the time. But, if you make a valid point, I'll agree regardless of my personal feelings for you or anyone else.

 

This isn't personal. This is a discussion board. And I can separate valid viewpoints from personality. And I'd hope others can do the same.

 

But that's off-topic enough. 😉

Edited by Ardenwolfe.8590
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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

Here's the thing about forums and discussion. We don't have to agree 100% anything. Heck, I can even disagree with you 99%. But, if you make a valid point, I'll agree regardless of my personal feelings for you.

 

This isn't personal. This is a discussion board. And I can separate valid viewpoints from personality. And I'd hope others can do the same.

You can hope. But more likely people are going to meme and talk about how reddit is so much better. *cough*

Edited by Daniel Handler.4816
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4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Do you realize how ludicrous that sounds to suggest a skill split for fractals and raids? PvE is PvE. There's no split for instanced PvE in the API nor ingame.

As I stated above , the best option for them to change it is not to revert it (staff) but lower confusion output on the autoattack from clones and the player (possibly). Right now the damage on it is inline with other ranged attacks provided confusion doesn't proc and you have 3 clones up. Relocating confusion stacks to phantasmal warlock for example, would make warlock not a DPS loss (you just use it for clone generation right now).

P.S. a fully ranged weapon doing more damage than a melee one is not inline with their prior design goals. See scepter auto on guardian or staff overall on elementalist , among other examples.

 

It is my Dwayna given right as a native Tyrian to make sweeping technical suggestions on the forums that will likely never happen because the company is short staffed and overworked. 

 

That being said, of course it would be far easier to just include an espec in EoD that has proper ramp (even though that's also going to be a nightmare because of the constraints of the class mechanic)

 

PS: I know.

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