On Player Interaction: The Main Achilies Heel of GW2

[Arnox.5128]

You know, WoW Classic has always had a certain appeal for me (hold on, guys, don't get your pitchforks out yet), but I couldn't quite nail down why for the longest time. And then, after watching UberDanger's WoW review, it suddenly became very clear. Guild Wars 2, ever since launch, has suffered from a major problem that it's generally done a great job of working around, but at the end of the day, no matter what ANet added in the past, the problem remained. It's a problem that I feel even GW1 didn't have quite as badly.

 

There is one thing that all MMOs have in common, and this is also what they live and die on. How much and how deeply that MMO allows you to interact with others. Now, keep in mind, interactions don't necessarily have to be "positive". The quickest example of this is PvP dueling. In dueling, there is, of course, a loser at the end. But does that mean that dueling is, overall, a terrible thing? No. That's just how things go. Losing gives that exciting risk. It gives definition to winning. Let's also look at a minigame that the WoW community created called "deathrolling". Basically, if you lose the gamble of deathrolling, you lose money and/or an item.  But again, that's the risk that gives excitement to the whole thing.

 

Now, let's examine these two things. For deathrolling, you need a public random number generator tool accessible to the players. For dueling, the game needs to be able to temporarily switch the PvP flag on and off on an individual basis on player request. Without the public RNG, deathrolling could not be a thing. Without the dueling system, the duels could not take place. The point here is that, regardless of what you personally think about deathrolling or dueling, these player interactions could never occur without the systems that were put in place by the devs to make them so. But because they put in the work for these seemingly small things, these interactions COULD occur. And because they could occur, great stories and experiences were had that many MANY other games could simply not replicate.

 

Ok, so let's turn our attention back to Guild Wars 2. How can we interact with other players in GW2 besides simple public and private communication? Let's list them. We can,

 

- Form groups and squads (the latter with a commander is incredibly powerful)

- Form permanent groups (guilds)

- Engage in structured PvP

- Engage in structured huge-scale PvP (WvW)

- Buy and sell via a trading post

- Send mail and/or items directly (no trading functionality)

- Play music publicly

- Do the (very scattered around) structured mini-games

- Costume brawl

 

Unless I'm not mistaken here, that's really about it. Now, that's not really a bad list per se. It's actually pretty respectable. But there's still a big problem. GW2 is competing with games that have much better player interaction tools and opportunities. I honestly think this is why GW2 to this day has issues keeping its playerbase really high. It's easy to fall into the trap, both as a developer and as a player, that what the game needs is more content (stories, dungeons, fractals, PvP maps, etc.) but content is always finite, and tools that offer more player interaction, in essence, offer potentially infinite content. But it's even more than that. Talk to anyone about their favorite MMO experiences and 9 times out of 10, it's probably gonna be based around an amazing player interaction they had. Not, "Yeah, that map they made five years ago was so pretty and balanced!"

 

Of course, this is all not to say that content isn't important. It absolutely is. But player interaction is even more important. After all, we are in the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER genre. That is the main part of WoW and FF14, and it's the main part of GW2. We need to start realizing this. And when we do, amazing things will happen for this game and its lifespan will be GREATLY extended. And hey, if you want another good example of good player interaction that was in the Guild Wars franchise, just look at Guild Wars 1's Guild vs. Guild. Because of that mode, GW1 still has a decently sized active playerbase and it's why I harp on about that mode being missing in GW2 so much. Another thing is WvW could be super attractive if it had REAL stakes to it. Right now, I don't even think the game tracks WvW rankings permanently. If you win, nobody cares because nothing really happens. There's nothing you can compare your server to. There's no goal to shoot for.

 

So, let's keep all this in mind when we next ask ourselves, "What does GW2 really need right now?"

___

Since the mods decided to merge my thread on the list of player interaction suggestions into this one, I'm going to post the full list here as well for easy reference.

___

Novelties:
Temporarily share unlocked tonics (maybe dyes too)
Take control of your own minis
 

Guilds:
Guild watching
Designate rival guilds (mostly for GvG if it comes)
Guild leaders (only) can mass-send mail to guild members
Guild leaders (only) can embed an image in guild message (very iffy)
Guild icon and appropriate guild slot is highlighted if guild message changes
Guilds can schedule events via calendar
Guild alliances
Custom guild teams
Global guild list

 

Chat:
Dice roller
More emotes

 

Groups:
Teleport to squad commander (as long as player is in the same area and instance)
Commander has an outline around their entry on the group list
Left-clicking a player in the group list targets the player
Targeted players are highlighted on the map

 

WvW:
Give much more reward for servers being in the top 3 in WvW
List and search past WvW rankings

 

Mail:
Allow to send one mail every five seconds
Increase message length
Allow weapon/build/item/etc. links in mail as in chat

 

PvP:
Guild vs. guild
List and search past GvG rankings (if GvG is added)
List and search past PvP rankings

 

General:
Allow players to see achievements, masteries, and current skins
All achievements are now unlockable titles (their names are the default title)
Custom statuses (only on inspect)
LFG overhaul
Option for temporary ignores
Trade system

 

Quality of Life:
Highlight and copy chat text
Highlight and copy mail text
Musical intruments have their own bindable keys for playing
Friends list shows game ID even if player is nicknamed
/age shows how long till next nearest birthday
Search for locations on world map
Allow chat when in world map

Edited June 9, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Vayne.8563]

I hated dueling in every game I've ever had it in. Not interested.  At least a decent percentage of the community is against it every time it's brought up.

 

Racing is my favorite interaction here, but then I'm in a guild. I'm interacting with people all the time.  You also left out stuff like water ballons, costume brawl, bobble head labortory, banners, tables and that stupid drinking game. Also activities in Lion's Arch which are on a rotation and you can do a different one every day in addition to the adventures scattered around that you already mentioned. 

 

I don't necessarily love interacting with random people, I love interacting with my guild. Adding dueling wouldn't do a thing for me except annoy me when some moron kept jumping up and down in front of me insisting I duel with them as happened in WoW.  No thanks.2

[Arnox.5128]

17 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I hated dueling in every game I've ever had it in. Not interested.  At least a decent percentage of the community is against it every time it's brought up.

 

Racing is my favorite interaction here, but then I'm in a guild. I'm interacting with people all the time.  You also left out stuff like water ballons, costume brawl, bobble head labortory, banners, tables and that stupid drinking game. Also activities in Lion's Arch which are on a rotation and you can do a different one every day in addition to the adventures scattered around that you already mentioned. 

 

I don't necessarily love interacting with random people, I love interacting with my guild. Adding dueling wouldn't do a thing for me except annoy me when some moron kept jumping up and down in front of me insisting I duel with them as happened in WoW.  No thanks.2

 

You missed the point of the OP entirely. It's not advocating for or against dueling as an individual feature. It's advocating for more player interaction tools in general. If you don't like dueling, you can just ignore all dueling requests. Anet could even put in a simple checkbox that auto-ignores all duel requests. And before you say, "People are gonna be annoying about it," they can be annoying about anything. Trust me. Trolls find a way.

 

Now, as to the rest of the stuff you listed, most of it is limited to items that many people may not have at all. Costume brawl is one thing I did miss though so I'll add it in. The LA activities may have been really great, but since it's on random permanently, most if not all people just kinda don't do them, and they're of course limited to players who are in LA. Also, are there any stakes to them?

 

But let's put that all aside for a second. You were talking about guilds. Now I admit that this could just be me, but in GW1, being in a guild felt much more special. When you got into a guild, you got access to a guild hall (which was more important back then), could participate in GvG, and could interact with any other guild your guild was allied with. Further, You couldn't join another guild unless you left your current one. That sounds like an issue and it could be at times, but it also meant everyone in the guild was forced to stick together and interact with each other. When everyone can be in five guilds at once, you get a LOT more butterflying and half-hearted participation. Admittedly, the guild limitation isn't too relevant to tools for player interaction, but it WAS still important for encouraging player interaction.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Vayne.8563]

30 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

You missed the point of the OP entirely. It's not advocating for or against dueling as an individual feature. It's advocating for more player interaction tools in general. If you don't like dueling, you can just ignore all dueling requests. Anet could even put in a simple checkbox that auto-ignores all duel requests. And before you say, "People are gonna be annoying about it," they can be annoying about anything. Trust me. Trolls find a way.

 

Now, as to the rest of the stuff you listed, most of it is limited to items that many people may not have at all. Costume brawl is one thing I did miss though so I'll add it in. The LA activities may have been really great, but since it's on random permanently, most if not all people just kinda don't do them, and they're of course limited to players who are in LA. Also, are there any stakes to them?

 

But let's put that all aside for a second. You were talking about guilds. Now I admit that this could just be me, but in GW1, being in a guild felt much more special. When you got into a guild, you got access to a guild hall (which was more important back then), could participate in GvG, and could interact with any other guild your guild was allied with. Further, You couldn't join another guild unless you left your current one. That sounds like an issue and it could be at times, but it also meant everyone in the guild was forced to stick together and interact with each other. When everyone can be in five guilds at once, you get a LOT more butterflying and half-hearted participation. Admittedly, the guild limitation isn't too relevant to tools for player interaction, but it WAS still important for encouraging player interaction.

You missed my point though.
There's plenty of ways to interact in the game, and while I'm not necessarily against adding more, I feel like I'm interacting all day every day. Because I'm a guild with people I genuinely like and we have a blast.  You find that group of people my guess is you won't need artificial ways to interact in game, because we're always doing stuff together. 

 

Am I against more ways to interact? Nah. Do I think the game needs more of it? Not really.  I think you're over-emphasizing the importance of it based on your personal preferences. I think if more people cared, we'd hear more about this.  But all we ever really get are requests for dueling.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[sajah varel.9261]

The problem with dueling isn't dueling. It's that if you put it in the game, you need to do the balancing job around it. That means another layer of pvp balancing complaints.

 

We already have enough with spvp modes and wvw, having to account for another mode is just asking for trouble they don't need right now.

And don't start with the "they don't need to balance it, it's just for fun". I tell you, if they put dueling in the game, you'll see posts every day asking for nerfs because people won't be able to win their duels.

[Arnox.5128]

11 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I think if more people cared, we'd hear more about this.  But all we ever really get are requests for dueling.

 

Which is a player interaction tool... So you actually are hearing about it. Just in a somewhat indirect way.

 

I'm not saying though that you can't have a good time in GW2. Obviously not. And GW2 has its own perks. Hell, I'd even say that there's very good reasons Guild Wars 2 has survived and thrived as long as it has. But the goal (for the devs) is to be better than the competition while also maybe capitalizing on things the game already does well. Especially when an expac is in dev. And in regards to player interaction, I honestly believe GW2 suffers in comparison to other MMOs.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Arnox.5128]

3 minutes ago, sajah varel.9261 said:

 you'll see posts every day asking for nerfs

 

So basically every single day on the PvP sub-forums then. But I think this is also a bit misleading as 1-on-1 battles are ABSOLUTELY a part of balancing the PvP in general. Do you believe every encounter is always groups fighting each other? In the worst case scenario, nobody uses dueling. In which case, the game is unaffected overall anyway.

[Vayne.8563]

32 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

You missed the point of the OP entirely. It's not advocating for or against dueling as an individual feature. It's advocating for more player interaction tools in general. If you don't like dueling, you can just ignore all dueling requests. Anet could even put in a simple checkbox that auto-ignores all duel requests. And before you say, "People are gonna be annoying about it," they can be annoying about anything. Trust me. Trolls find a way.

 

Now, as to the rest of the stuff you listed, most of it is limited to items that many people may not have at all. Costume brawl is one thing I did miss though so I'll add it in. The LA activities may have been really great, but since it's on random permanently, most if not all people just kinda don't do them, and they're of course limited to players who are in LA. Also, are there any stakes to them?

 

But let's put that all aside for a second. You were talking about guilds. Now I admit that this could just be me, but in GW1, being in a guild felt much more special. When you got into a guild, you got access to a guild hall (which was more important back then), could participate in GvG, and could interact with any other guild your guild was allied with. Further, You couldn't join another guild unless you left your current one. That sounds like an issue and it could be at times, but it also meant everyone in the guild was forced to stick together and interact with each other. When everyone can be in five guilds at once, you get a LOT more butterflying and half-hearted participation. Admittedly, the guild limitation isn't too relevant to tools for player interaction, but it WAS still important for encouraging player interaction.

The right guild is always special. The wrong guild is always crap. I  was in a couple of special GW 1 guilds and a couple of crap ones. But nothing, for me anyway, is better than my Guild here, which is 9 years old.  A guild is as special as the people in it.  The game doesn't make better or worse guilds. People make better or worse guilds.

[Vayne.8563]

19 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

Which is a player interaction tool... So you actually are hearing about it. Just in a somewhat indirect way.

 

I'm not saying though that you can't have a good time in GW2. Obviously not. And GW2 has its own perks. Hell, I'd even say that there's very good reasons Guild Wars 2 has survived and thrived as long as it has. But the goal (for the devs) is to be better than the competition while also maybe capitalizing on things the game already does well. Especially when an expac is in dev. And in regards to player interaction, I honestly believe GW2 suffers in comparison to other MMOs.

Nope. I'm hearing only about dueling as an end in and of itself. They're not asking for general player interaction tools, but one specific one that has the community divided. What I haven't heard about is others asking for what you're asking for. More tools to interact.  Again I'm not against it. I just don't think it's as important as you make it out to be.

[sajah varel.9261]

17 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

So basically every single day on the PvP sub-forums then. But I think this is also a bit misleading as 1-on-1 battles are ABSOLUTELY a part of balancing the PvP in general. Do you believe every encounter is always groups fighting each other? In the worst case scenario, nobody uses dueling. In which case, the game is unaffected overall anyway.

 

No, in pvp balancing is done around all pvp. In pvp there is dueling, group fighting, objectives etc. (and more often than not, everything happening at the same time or in succession). The balancing is done around everything, not every class needs to be able to do dueling in pvp, that's the point of having an objective oriented match, party composition and cohesion is more important than personal builds, which has always been GW pvp motto. In a dueling mode there is only dueling, and that is a big difference in the use of skills.

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by sajah varel.9261

[Arnox.5128]

11 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The game doesn't make better or worse guilds. People make better or worse guilds.

 

That is definitely true, but you can increase the probability of finding a good guild and encourage more community in guilds if they're done better and the guilds are given better tools to handle interaction in varied and deep ways.

 

For example, why can't admins mass mail everyone in a guild? There is the announcement window, but you get no notification whatsoever if it's been changed, and few people actually check that regularly. There's no way to send mass communications besides manually right-clicking on every name on the roster and PMing them all. Because of this, guilds often have to rely on third-party tools such as Discord in order to keep everything organized, which means players needing to switch out of the game, make an account (if needed), log in, put in the invite request, and blehhhhhh... So much work just to get notifications for your guild!

 

And that's just one little thing.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Arnox.5128]

3 minutes ago, sajah varel.9261 said:

 

No, in pvp balancing is done around all pvp. In pvp there is dueling, group fighting, objectives etc. (and more often than not, everything happening at the same time or in succession). The balancing is done around everything, not every class needs to be able to do dueling in pvp, that's the point of having an objective oriented match, party composition and cohesion is more important than personal builds, which has always been GW pvp motto. In a dueling mode there is only dueling, and that is a big difference in the use of skills.

 

 

That's still not enough of a reason to dismiss dueling entirely. And may I remind you that making builds both was and is a huge part of Guild Wars combat. kitten, GW2 was even originally designed from the ground up to buck the holy trinity design that we kept seeing over and over again. You're making it sound like if we allowed dueling, some classes would just always curbstomp other classes. And finally, we technically do have dueling in a very roundabout way. There's the FFA arena in HotM. Tons of dueling is done there and I never hear any complaining about it.

[Vayne.8563]

3 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

That is definitely true, but you can increase the probability of finding a good guild and encourage more community in guilds if they're done better and the guilds are given better tools to handle interaction in varied and deep ways.

 

For example, why can't admins mass mail everyone in a guild? There is the announcement window, but you get no notification whatsoever if it's been changed, and few people actually check that regularly. There's no way to send mass communications besides manually right-clicking on every name on the roster and PMing them all. Because of this, guilds often have to rely on third-party tools such as Discord in order to keep everything organized, which means players needing to switch out of the game, make an account (if needed, log in, put in the invite request, and blehhhhhh... So much work just to get notifications for your guild!

 

And that's just one little thing.

I'm all for better guild functions. Sure.  But because your ask is so general, more ways to interact, you're going to get some people's backs up, particularly using the example you used.  But again, we're doing just fine without me mass mailing everyone.  A lot of guilds use and require discord which takes the place of that, or they have a website.   

Again I wouldn't mind this in the game. I just don't see the importance you're attaching to it. 

[Arnox.5128]

5 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm all for better guild functions. Sure.  But because your ask is so general, more ways to interact, you're going to get some people's backs up, particularly using the example you used.  But again, we're doing just fine without me mass mailing everyone.  A lot of guilds use and require discord which takes the place of that, or they have a website.   

Again I wouldn't mind this in the game. I just don't see the importance you're attaching to it. 

 

Again, you're not seeing the bigger picture. None of these features alone are absolute deal-breakers, but together, they all contribute to making the game feel much more alive and exciting instead of a list of tasks to be done to get the carrot at the end of the stick. The players make the MMO, not the other way around. So the MMO should focus on fostering relationships as best as it can and paving the way for more player stories. Once more, you can still absolutely have fun in GW2, but to say we don't need anything else would be to say that you want the game to essentially stay the exact same it's always been, and if we do that we WILL stagnate and we WILL die, no matter how well we currently work around these problems.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Asum.4960]

The main antagonist to player interaction in GW2 is convenience and lack of difficulty. 

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and GW2 definitely has it to the point where it kind of eroded the MMO foundation. 

 

The main thing I remember from all the MMO's of old that I played were those player interaction moments when I couldn't beat something, when something needed a group, when I couldn't get somewhere etc., and I needed to to find/ask/group up with other players to overcome the game world, and the adventures and bonds that sometimes resulted from that. 

 

Meanwhile in GW2, with social anxiety and such, no needed grouping, everything solo and easy etc. sounds great at first - but if the whole game then turns into a super easy single player game with lacklustre story compared to dedicated games of that genre, grinds and other things requiring massively long term engagement, it really falls apart in that it's an MMO world but without an MMO community to inhabit it, to make it feel alive and dynamic. 

 

GW2 OW is either playing "alone together" solo play or "meaningless cog" in a giant anonymous zerg group play. 

Most often even if you force it by grouping up with friends, the game doesn't really support playing together well. Mobs die so fast you can't tackle them together, "Quests" are all personal achievements, hearts are tracked separately, etc. - so even when playing together with a friend, it's really just two solo players playing alongside each other, trying not to kill steal and let others tag mobs before they instantly evaporate. 

 

The game as a whole is too afraid to force people out of their comfort zone, to challenge it's players and to provide healthy inconveniences that force engagement that can result in memorable experiences, bonds and a sense of accomplishment. 

 

Don't get me wrong, GW2 is a fantastic game, but it's an awful MMO. 

Features like Dueling and such, sure, could help, but the game at it's core has way bigger problems (if it wants to provide an MMO experience) in terms of needing better and more guild systems and activities, challenging small scale OW encounters, dungeon experiences, challenging story group content - and many more optional features like that, forging communication and cooperation. 

 

Allowing players to largely play solo and just experience the game is great (although I do feel like the occasional forcing out of comfort zones is vital for player growth), but GW2 almost goes to other extremes and doesn't really allow for meaningful group play, outside of very specific literal instances (Fractals, Raids, WvW, sPvP), with the only group play offer at hand being part of a silent 50 player zerg holding down 1 to autoattack at 10-20 FPS, before everybody instantly teleports all over the place again via waypoints once everything is done. 

 

Every player can teleport anywhere at any time and solo walk through any content.

That's the Achilles Heel of GW2.

GW2 Open World is as convenient as it is unengaging, and as easy as it is unsatisfying to overcome.

[Arnox.5128]

14 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

The main antagonist to player interaction in GW2 is convenience and lack of difficulty. 

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and GW2 definitely has it to the point where it kind of eroded the MMO foundation. 

 

The main thing I remember from all the MMO's of old that I played were those player interaction moments when I couldn't beat something, when something needed a group, when I couldn't get somewhere etc., and I needed to to find/ask/group up with other players to overcome the game world, and the adventures and bonds that sometimes resulted from that. 

 

Meanwhile in GW2, with social anxiety and such, no needed grouping, everything solo and easy etc. sounds great at first - but if the whole game then turns into a super easy single player game with lacklustre story compared to dedicated games of that genre, grinds and other things requiring massively long term engagement, it really falls apart in that it's an MMO world but without an MMO community to inhabit it, to make it feel alive and dynamic. 

 

GW2 OW is either playing "alone together" solo play or "meaningless cog" in a giant anonymous zerg group play. 

Most often even if you force it by grouping up with friends, the game doesn't really support playing together well. Mobs die so fast you can't tackle them together, "Quests" are all personal achievements, hearts are tracked separately, etc. - so even when playing together with a friend, it's really just two solo players playing alongside each other, trying not to kill steal and let others tag mobs before they instantly evaporate. 

 

The game as a whole is too afraid to force people out of their comfort zone, to challenge it's players and to provide healthy inconveniences that force engagement that can result in memorable experiences, bonds and a sense of accomplishment. 

 

Don't get me wrong, GW2 is a fantastic game, but it's an awful MMO. 

Features like Dueling and such, sure, could help, but the game at it's core has way bigger problems (if it wants to provide an MMO experience) in terms of needing better and more guild systems and activities, challenging small scale OW encounters, dungeon experiences, challenging story group content - and many more optional features like that, forging communication and cooperation. 

 

Allowing players to largely play solo and just experience the game is great (although I do feel like the occasional forcing out of comfort zones is vital for player growth), but GW2 almost goes to other extremes and doesn't really allow for meaningful group play, outside of very specific literal instances (Fractals, Raids, WvW, sPvP), with the only group play offer at hand being part of a silent 50 player zerg holding down 1 to autoattack at 10-20 FPS, before everybody instantly teleports all over the place again via waypoints once everything is done. 

 

Every player can teleport anywhere at any time and solo walk through any content.

That's the Achilles Heel of GW2.

GW2 Open World is as convenient as it is unengaging, and as easy as it is unsatisfying to overcome.

 

I don't know... Last time ANet tried giving a real challenge with HoT, many people hated it. But then again, maybe that was simply because it was more annoying than challenging. Many people loved the GW1 campaigns and that got pretty challenging in many instances.

 

Do keep in mind though, for these big OW bosses, there's really only so much you can do. Trying to coordinate a group of over 50 randos who come together at almost the last second who know absolutely nothing about each other is pretty much impossible. Therefore, the best you can do is simple objectives along with the boss fight itself because anything more would be really frustrating both for new players because they don't know how to take the boss down and for old players who need the new players to know at least somewhat what they need to do.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Asum.4960]

27 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

I don't know... Last time ANet tried giving a real challenge with HoT, many people hated it. But then again, maybe that was simply because it was more annoying than challenging. Many people loved the GW1 campaigns and that got pretty challenging in many instances.

While (esp. shared) struggle does forge bonds, growth and satisfaction/accomplishment - of course no one wants to struggle. 

Humans are conditioned to go for the path of least resistance, the GW2 community more so than anyone, having been tremendously spoiled in it for years with a growing sense of entitlement. They will always champion QoL, content nerfs, player powercreep, etc. - even if it will ruin their own experiences long term.

 

 

The power of video games though is to deliver the right amount of struggle, in a save environment, to reap all those benefits that come from overcoming it, without any of the risk. 

Doing that together is where MMO's shine in particular, and where GW2, outside of specific aforementioned group content, imo largely failed. 

 

 

That said, HoT, even after the nerfs and initial hate it got, is still regarded as some of the most challenging, most liked and most long term engaging OW content of GW2. That should be a clue.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Asum.4960

[AgentMoore.9453]

Just witnessed a horrific argument in a HoT map chat yet, needing a hero point done, I asked in that same chat if anyone was free to come and do it. One dude replied, brought four of his friends, and knocked the HP out, no questions asked. Then we squaded up and helped each other get any other HPs that were needed until everybody had their stuff, picking up anyone we found at HPs if they requested help. I'll probably never see any of them again, but they were excellent. Systems working as intended.

 

Real thing that really happened tonight; didn't even need LFG.

 

I feel like current player interactions get the job done just fine in this game. What does need tinkering are things like the block, report, and message/invite filtering systems. Ask a number of posters here on the forum about it and they'll tell you all about the awful ways people communicate with the systems we've already got. Not sure that we need more until we get a tune-up on some of those.

[Asum.4960]

17 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Just witnessed a horrific argument in a HoT map chat yet, needing a hero point done, I asked in that same chat if anyone was free to come and do it. One dude replied, brought four of his friends, and knocked the HP out, no questions asked. Then we squaded up and helped each other get any other HPs that were needed until everybody had their stuff, picking up anyone we found at HPs if they requested help. I'll probably never see any of them again, but they were excellent. Systems working as intended.

 

Real thing that really happened tonight; didn't even need LFG.

 

I feel like current player interactions get the job done just fine in this game. What does need tinkering are things like the block, report, and message/invite filtering systems. Ask a number of posters here on the forum about it and they'll tell you all about the awful ways people communicate with the systems we've already got. Not sure that we need more until we get a tune-up on some of those.

HoT Hero Points (especially pre-nerf at launch) are one of the extremely rare cases of doing MMO right in GW2, and one I frequently use as example of what I wish GW2 OW had more of.

 

I remember pretty much all of them fondly, struggling with them, asking for help with them, overcoming them, learning them, helping other's with them, repeating them just for the sake of it because they were engaging. Was all a blast. 

 

The much more recent PoF in comparison I barely remember at all, because I just walked through it all solo first try, without having to really try.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Malitias.8453]

3 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

It's easy to fall into the trap, both as a developer and as a player, that what the game needs is more content (stories, dungeons, fractals, PvP maps, etc.) but content is always finite, and tools that offer more player interaction, in essence, offer potentially infinite content. But it's even more than that. Talk to anyone about their favorite MMO experiences and 9 times out of 10, it's probably gonna be based around an amazing player interaction they had. Not, "Yeah, that map they made five years ago was so pretty and balanced!"

I think this sums up pretty well why EVE Online is still being played by a very passionate fanbase.

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

I think this sums up pretty well why EVE Online is still being played by a very passionate fanbase.

At the same time, the kind of interactions you can have there are also a reason why EVE Online is definitely not a game for most people. Lot of stories i hear from there, stories that EVE fans bring up as a sign of how their game is great, are things that make me run as fast as possible in the opposite direction. Because those are kinds of interaction i would never, ever want anywhere near me.

[Algreg.3629]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

At the same time, the kind of interactions you can have there are also a reason why EVE Online is definitely not a game for most people. Lot of stories i hear from there, stories that EVE fans bring up as a sign of how their game is great, are things that make me run as fast as possible in the opposite direction. Because those are kinds of interaction i would never, ever want anywhere near me.

It is a game very you have to accept real loss as a possible outcome. That is certainly very different from most games on the market. Also the reason why people form real interest groups. Not better, not worse, just a different design philosophy.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Algreg.3629

[Malitias.8453]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

The main antagonist to player interaction in GW2 is convenience and lack of difficulty. 

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and GW2 definitely has it to the point where it kind of eroded the MMO foundation. 

I agree.
Difficulty and challenge fosters socializing.
It's baffling to me how MMOs and even a lot of people try to justify the low difficulty of MMOs with "lowest common demoninator", to attract the highest number of people, even though the low difficulty is what makes so many people bored enough to leave. It's not a common demoninator if it makes people quit.
Games that offer a challenge are by no means "niche", so I don't understand why MMOs never offer players a decent challenge as part of the main experience.

[Malitias.8453]

15 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

At the same time, the kind of interactions you can have there are also a reason why EVE Online is definitely not a game for most people.

https://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
Most people? I dunno man, seems pretty healthy to me, especially for a game that's 18 years old.
I think the setting(fantasy is usually more popular than "spaceships") and the awkward controls are mostly what deters people from it. The player interactions are what sell the game, not the other way around.

[Aodlop.1907]

4 hours ago, sajah varel.9261 said:

The problem with dueling isn't dueling. It's that if you put it in the game, you need to do the balancing job around it. That means another layer of pvp balancing complaints.

No you don't. It's a wild format, WoW certainly doesn't attempt to balance anything around dueling. It's still fun.