Degenerate Combinations

[Crab Fear.1624]

Stat Trait Definitions:

 

Ability to Hold a Point; through any means a player holds a point against multiple foes, and survives a barrage of attacks

Survive and Sustain; with skillbar, evades, heals, toughness, protection, barrier, screen clutter (minions, clones, summons, ect), weakness application, blinds, blocks, and more evades

Support; heals, boons, revives, barriers and boosts to self and allies

Condi Damage; damage type, over time, requires 1 stat to be effective on an amulet 1/3 or 1/4 stats to be effective generally

Power Damage; damage type immediate, requires 3 stats to be effective on an amulet 3/3 or 3/4 to be effective generally

X,Y Mobility (horizontal); moving on one level across the map at a rate quicker than others through leaps, ports, speed boosts, and portals

Z Mobility (vertical); moving up or down levels across a map (i.e. from the base of a river to a bridge overhead)

T Mobility; teleport though walls, ect

 

Consider that these traits should be (high B or A) to S for the class, because everyone gets some amount of everything in one way or another, but it has to be effective to that level to actually matter.

 

 

I was just thinking about this, and for my post I wanted to define what I meant above.

 

I was wondering based on these definitions above, what is generally unfair and unfun, or OP to play against when these traits are combined?

 

For example, people considered condi sword thief degenerate and unfun to fight, and it probably had (X,Y,Z, and T mobility), Condi Damage, secondary Power Damage(little crits), Survive and Sustain. I don't think it was really a point holder against multiple foes but it was a 1 v 1 monster and really toxic when starting the fight from behind an object especially.

 

I think that when some, or too many traits are combined with great efficacy to each, it becomes unfun.

 

For example what if a class had Ability to Hold a Point, Survive and Sustain, Condi Damage, and Support?

 

Or, what about Ability to Hold a Point, Survive and Sustain, Condi Damage, and X-Y-Z-T mobility?

 

https://i.imgur.com/rPfRXKX.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624

[Crab Fear.1624]

I don't know how to post images in this new forum yet, but the image is a power diamond, and if you imagine that everyone gets a set amount of points to fill it, everyone the same amount, then trying to into every stat would make each one very weak overall, but focusing on certain stats would make those strong, at the cost of others having almost no effect.

 

[Axl.8924]

3 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

I don't know how to post images in this new forum yet, but the image is a power diamond, and if you imagine that everyone gets a set amount of points to fill it, everyone the same amount, then trying to into every stat would make each one very weak overall, but focusing on certain stats would make those strong, at the cost of others having almost no effect.

 

Are you saying everything is overpowered? or nothing is overpowered?

Everyone has at least 1 or multiple of these, say for instance eles with weaver got a little bit of infamy in the past.

 

Holo is now famous because of sustain and even without amulet htey got stuff that makes them tanky and able to hold points off better than others due to it..

 

Personally, a skill is only truly overpowered if it has no counter to it, say: If you can combine a high duration stun with massive dmg or long duration low cd invis with insta kill.

Also i'm a bit iffy about some of this.

I'm ok with some classes being better than others at some things some of the time just not all the time.

Il explain: A class like rev having decent resistance to condis is useful in itself, but one issue is some classes could shine more in what makes them unique.

 

I think if that uniqueness stands out in SPVP/WVW with its counters as well, then its probably better, because it means more strategy rather than dumbing it down by deleting everything and ending up with exactly 1 or 0 builds which is very binary and in the end destroys choice,  and this game is about choices.

 

Balancing out all this is quite a job, and ANET has still not found a way to make all classes stand out in group situations or roamer with builds. Some classes suffer.

 

I think personally, we should prob focus on having good variety of builds that counter eachother bringing them up instead of deleting more options and creating more issues.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Crab Fear.1624]

3 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Are you saying everything is overpowered? or nothing is overpowered?

Everyone has at least 1 or multiple of these, say for instance eles with weaver got a little bit of infamy in the past.

 

Holo is now famous because of sustain and even without amulet htey got stuff that makes them tanky and able to hold points off better than others due to it..

 

Personally, a skill is only truly overpowered if it has no counter to it, say: If you can combine a high duration stun with massive dmg or long duration low cd invis with insta kill.

 

 

Weavers can duel, hold points, sustain, and are very mobile.

 

Damage is very respectable.

 

duel, hold points, and sustain are kind of hand in hand, so the mobility would stand out as the problematic value.

 

Doing this while being able to get across the map quickly gives them a very high value.

 

I think some players say, well weaver is complicate, requires big IQ to play....ect.

 

The first 3 being harmonious values are ok, and the big IQ player is the justification, but consider now that player can also quickly move that high value across the map, more so than others, and even chase down and kill supposedly "more mobile" classes...the IQ part can't even factor in.

 

It literally is being over-tooled and in a way that causes and unfair advantage.

 

If the weaver has exhausted its cool-downs prematurely, and is being overwhelmed because it over stepped, porting away and escaping should not be an option.

 

But with any class rules like this needs to exist.

 

I see that thief keeps getting initiative nerfs and damage nerfs, and the response is mobility is too high to justify dueling or high upfront damage.

 

Now, the focus shouldn't be on weaver, for this thread, but any class that violates the harmonious and becomes to synergestic.

 

With practice some classes thought to be slow, with the use of ports, suddenly become fast and mobile.

 

Their damage, sustain, and chase values are too synergestic, too high value, and unfair.

 

9 classes gives the opportunity to play variety.

 

ABC- DEF -GHI

123  - 456 - 789

tanky/support -dueling/team- decap/roam(+1)

 

the grouping is to understand the spectrum of what should be viable in conquest, and to excel at one area would be detrimental to the other end of your performance spectrum.

 

I am claiming the middle group has value from all spectrum, and the difference between their max, and the specialist committed is too minimal.

 

What i mean instead of being a jack of all trades, they become almost-a-master of all trades.

 

Realistically, should be mediocre at all, at best if you fall into the middle group.

 

A duelist should be hardy enough to hang in team fights, but in no way be able to hawk down, chase down a roamer.

 

And a duelist may be able to gear to tanky, but mobility should drop just as drastically.

 

Honestly, ports should have been much more limited than they are, as well as stealth.

 

Some things you think seem like they should be unique to a class like aegis is handed out, or active defenses, or tankyness....

 

They need to lock classes into roles for pvp at the very least.

 

If you want to play other roles, just swap classes.

 

I though maybe play your way was good, but it really isnt.

 

If one profession is hard locked into a role, every class should be.

 

Then practice will have value, and judging team comps will have value, and skill and tactics can adapt.

 

9 classes, there are already enough variables.

 

Please before we get to the decapping necro (some are trying by the way...)

 

 

 

[Axl.8924]

19 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Weavers can duel, hold points, sustain, and are very mobile.

 

Damage is very respectable.

 

duel, hold points, and sustain are kind of hand in hand, so the mobility would stand out as the problematic value.

 

Doing this while being able to get across the map quickly gives them a very high value.

 

I think some players say, well weaver is complicate, requires big IQ to play....ect.

 

The first 3 being harmonious values are ok, and the big IQ player is the justification, but consider now that player can also quickly move that high value across the map, more so than others, and even chase down and kill supposedly "more mobile" classes...the IQ part can't even factor in.

 

It literally is being over-tooled and in a way that causes and unfair advantage.

 

If the weaver has exhausted its cool-downs prematurely, and is being overwhelmed because it over stepped, porting away and escaping should not be an option.

 

But with any class rules like this needs to exist.

 

I see that thief keeps getting initiative nerfs and damage nerfs, and the response is mobility is too high to justify dueling or high upfront damage.

 

Now, the focus shouldn't be on weaver, for this thread, but any class that violates the harmonious and becomes to synergestic.

 

With practice some classes thought to be slow, with the use of ports, suddenly become fast and mobile.

 

Their damage, sustain, and chase values are too synergestic, too high value, and unfair.

 

9 classes gives the opportunity to play variety.

 

ABC- DEF -GHI

123  - 456 - 789

tanky/support -dueling/team- decap/roam(+1)

 

the grouping is to understand the spectrum of what should be viable in conquest, and to excel at one area would be detrimental to the other end of your performance spectrum.

 

I am claiming the middle group has value from all spectrum, and the difference between their max, and the specialist committed is too minimal.

 

What i mean instead of being a jack of all trades, they become almost-a-master of all trades.

 

Realistically, should be mediocre at all, at best if you fall into the middle group.

 

A duelist should be hardy enough to hang in team fights, but in no way be able to hawk down, chase down a roamer.

 

And a duelist may be able to gear to tanky, but mobility should drop just as drastically.

 

Honestly, ports should have been much more limited than they are, as well as stealth.

 

Some things you think seem like they should be unique to a class like aegis is handed out, or active defenses, or tankyness....

 

They need to lock classes into roles for pvp at the very least.

 

If you want to play other roles, just swap classes.

 

I though maybe play your way was good, but it really isnt.

 

If one profession is hard locked into a role, every class should be.

 

Then practice will have value, and judging team comps will have value, and skill and tactics can adapt.

 

9 classes, there are already enough variables.

 

Please before we get to the decapping necro (some are trying by the way...)

 

 

 

 

It would have been nice if Anet themselves defined the roles like duelist and what its supposed to be good at.

 

I know the point capture thief is supposed to basically capture uncontested ones and +1 peepss.

 

Also personally i can see it how elites are limited, since elites have hteir own thing they excell at, like tempest with support and a bit at AOES.

 

There is a issue with ports though.

 

I think tempest feel it a bit not sure how hard it is to survive without ports with weaver, but for tempest i think they kinda squishy without ports.

 

Its kinda feels bad on ele if they can't escape with a port and you can chill cripple a ele to make sure they don't get away if you got a mobile class say a revenant or a thief in your team.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Axl.8924