I think you should stop forcefully changing metas.

[Crab Fear.1624]

I think that the metas for each class need to be redefined, and then fixed into a more static role.

 

Once you place classes into a few static roles, any deviation that they begin to show from those intended roles needs to be nipped, but not too harshly.

 

But the roles should be harmonious but not too synergistic.

 

For example a +1 and decapper probably shouldnt have dueling abilities because of the mobility. Mobility and point control puts them around the map and unfair to fight.

 

Or a teamfighter, support, point holder should not have great mobility.

 

A duelist should have good sustain, and ability to hold points perhaps against multiple foes, but traversing the map should be slow and unproductive.

 

Teamfighters and sustain are the same but with more effect to the allies.

 

A decapper should melt if focused, but quickly take out single targets with lower health.

 

Deviating from roles is where the nerfs need to happen.

 

It may be sad to players who want it all, but it should be taught that you cant have it all.

 

So, no extremely mobile teamfighting tanks, and no extremly tanky decapper and +1s.

 

 

 

But, right now, it is opposite. You seem to be giving a bit, a good bit, of everything to the same few classes over and over.

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

I say this because people can get better and better at the game with practice instead of worrying about what lame antics you add in.

 

Rules to games don't constantly change, those games dies out.

 

When you force change metas, you change the rules to the game, and it drives people who practice and practice away because often times your changes are toxic boosts to the unskilled.

 

How many times have the rules to chess changed in the last few hundred years?

 

Yeah so changing metas should be about that rate and conquest can thrive.

 

The next update you need to hard set roles and nip away deviations,

 

You can define the roles to classes, and then set the same kind of limit for building teams as if it was choosing classes.

 

If you notice that one thing is better than another thing, then you have to justify why you think it is better, and consider if players put in the effort to counter it, or just stayed hard stuck.

[Lil Rookie.2706]

Allowing builds freedom to change and for players to play them the way they want instead of narrowing the options will also allow people to improve at the game and or have fun

[Crab Fear.1624]

41 minutes ago, Lil Rookie.2706 said:

Allowing builds freedom to change and for players to play them the way they want instead of narrowing the options will also allow people to improve at the game and or have fun

That is literally what they have been doing.

 

See where we are...

 

There are 9 professions, plenty of options. No reason for 1 profession being able to do it all.

[Vancho.8750]

I on the other side of this I think Arenanet should make the builds and not the people, since people want to win and pick the most kaka poo poo builds ever. So areanet should make our fun and make great builds for every elite and core with their own purpose.

From what I have seen the pvp peeps dont deserve build craft, cause you all kitteners are cheese lords. too kitten to have fun in a kittening game. At least with curated builds I would be able to play with and against non cheese builds.

I find it quite funny that by listening to the "TOP" players we always end up in garbage meta like the ESL "I wana win by boring the audience" meta.   

[Lil Rookie.2706]

1 hour ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

That is literally what they have been doing.

 

See where we are...

 

There are 9 professions, plenty of options. No reason for 1 profession being able to do it all.

I like the meta. Only complaint is scourge/necro being very ez for the reward same as some thief builds, but if I say no you cannot play that- I don’t think anything will actually improve 

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

I think that the metas for each class need to be redefined, and then fixed into a more static role.

 

Right off the bat we have problems. Meta isn't 'defined' and it can't be static. Classes have never been placed in 'roles' to begin with. They simply have a set of skills that may be optimal for a given encounter. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Crab Fear.1624]

23 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right off the bat we have problems. Meta isn't 'defined' and it can't be static. Classes have never been placed in 'roles' to begin with. They simply have a set of skills that may be optimal for a given encounter. 

 

They need to be static.

 

This one class can do it all theme HAS to go.

 

PVP is literally a vegetable right now.

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

None of the more variety ideas have EVER worked in GW2. NEVER.

 

The trade-offs was good, but they literally only done it to 2 or 3 classes.....(melee....lol)

 

I don't find the cyclic off cooldown button mash fiesta is even remotely fun or skillful.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

They need to be static.

 

This one class can do it all theme HAS to go.

 

PVP is literally a vegetable right now.

 

 

No they don't. In fact, having a static meta in PVP is the worst thing anyone could wish for. Meta is not something Anet engineers so we have diversity. It's simply the result of solutions to the game that are optimal. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Crab Fear.1624]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No they don't. In fact, having a static meta in PVP is the worst thing anyone could wish for. Meta is not something Anet engineers so we have diversity. It's simply the result of solutions to the game that are optimal. 

The meta is to be very hard to kill, deal out very respectable damage, keep your allies alive or up, and move around the map faster than others.

 

What if one class was all of this, and dang near the best at it?

 

Wouldn't many players just play that because it increases their chances to be successful?

 

Doesn't it just narrow down to a few classes then, and others feel excluded while the few bring more value because they can do it all well?

 

You don't need to worry too much about any one thing, because you can excel at it all....

 

Role metas need to be locked.

 

If one is aoe, direct damage, and pretty tanky, then they really shouldn't be support or mobile.

 

If one is very mobile, with high back-end damage, I expect them to melt when hanging around team fights or trying to duel.

 

I don't expect a duelist to be super tanky, and definitely not supportive, they need a little mobility, but the success should really rely on personal mechanical skill, and not the innate life saving traits or skillbar overall.

 

If your class specifically tells you as you create it that it excels at something, then why does the class that is supposed to be opposite of that do it better?

 

Because.....reasons...

 

Adding in elites even adds more spice to the mix, but where did the tradeoffs go? That idea fell off quick, and some classes supposedly already had tradeoffs....lol...yeah right.

 

 

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

The meta is to be very hard to kill, deal out very respectable damage, keep your allies alive or up, and move around the map faster than others.

 

What if one class was all of this, and dang near the best at it?

It depends how it impacts the game. That has nothing to do with engineering meta to be static or whatever you're talking about though because that doesn't make sense. Meta isn't something Anet engineers so that we get all this variety in things that different classes do so they compete equally well. That's a fantasy. 

 

I mean, I don't even get the complaint here ... we have a pretty good idea of how Anet operates, their timetables, their approach. You are worried they aren't changing the game how you think it should change? That should be something you aren't worried about. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

That is literally what they have been doing.

 

See where we are...

 

There are 9 professions, plenty of options. No reason for 1 profession being able to do it all.

 

When it comes to game design, it is quite often that less is more.

 

For whatever reason, this concept is being completely avoided by the balance team.

[Crab Fear.1624]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It depends how it impacts the game. That has nothing to do with engineering meta to be static or whatever you're talking about though because that doesn't make sense. Meta isn't something Anet engineers so that we get all this variety in things that different classes do so they compete equally well. That's a fantasy. 

They literally engineer it, because in their justifications they use phrases like "we are excited to see this and that", and "we feel that such class is a bit too much" ect....

 

Are you actually saying that Anet doesn't even have a vision from what they expect pvp to be and where classes should excel?

 

Why nerf anything at all or buff anything at all?

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

They literally engineer it, because in their justifications they use phrases like "we are excited to see this and that", and "we feel that such class is a bit too much" ect....

 

Are you actually saying that Anet doesn't even have a vision from what they expect pvp to be and where classes should excel?

 

Why nerf anything at all or buff anything at all?

 

 

That doesn't make sense. What Anet likes to see happen in the game is not necessarily related to what is meta. That's just something you made up to justify the idea that Anet do things they way you want them to. I don't even think you understand what meta actually means if you believe that. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Crab Fear.1624]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No they literally do not engineer the meta because they see things working the way they like. That's nonsense. 

"see things working the way they like"

 

sounds like some kind of engineering.....

 

If they were unhappy with what happened, would they not change it?

 

Again engineering.

 

Anyways, I have yet to recieve a convincing argument or proof from you that more is better or whatever you are trying to say.

 

The same 4 classes being on top in varying degrees is easy to trace the problem to hyper success in too many roles which displaces other classes, and in turn lowers the overall variety of the game.

 

If giving more to classes is better, than they would give more to everyone and every class.

 

If 9 classes were success, the best at some roles, but not at others, I suppose we would see an overall increase in variety instead of the big 4 always dominating in pvp.

 

"because such and such in the mat"...unfortunatly really isnt a validating point.

 

Proof, or evidence, would come from frequency.

 

What happens in the 1-2 limited rank?

 

Could we see things different with a 1-5 ranked?

 

Maybe that is another topic.

 

But for now duo shows that the big 4 is quite excellent at displacing others.

 

Some roles need to be removed from them so others can shine.

 

 

[Kuma.1503]

Tbh, if this homogenous mess of everyone doing everything is going to change any time soon, people are going to have to start embracing outliers. 

 

When ele starts sustaining better than everyone else, isntead of complaining it's out of line, perhaps we accept that being squishy and easy to 100-0 but also being able to heal themselves from 10-100 is part of their design. 

 

When the ranger blows you up from 1500 range with a sic em burst, but contrubutes little else if their burst fails, gets LoS'd or is blocked/reflected, maybe instead of complaining that they burst too hard from range, we accept that they can have that stregnth (insane burst from range) in exhange for also having the weakness of low sustained dps. 

 

Basically we need to stop complaining about outliers and start asking ourselves whether or not what a class does is by design and, by extension, acceptable. 

 

We've been doing the opposite. Nerfing everyting so that it's "in line"

 

But what does that mean? If everything is "in line" then nothing stands out

 

If nothing stands out, then everything is basically the same

 

If everything is basically the same, we end up in this homogenous mess we have now. A bunch of generalists with no real identity. 

 

The community literally asked for this. Begged for it even. That mindset needs to change. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

this is backwards. anet shouldn't force any sort of designated roles or optimal play on their player base. the only thing anet should focus on is giving players more viable options to deal with whats already here so these do it all builds have counters. with plenty of viable counters op meta builds cease to be op meta. the paltry amount of weapon and utility skills is what i would like to see change. traits are fine, don't need a million of em.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Obtena.7952]

34 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

"see things working the way they like"

 

sounds like some kind of engineering.....

OK ... but that doesn't change what I said. What Anet likes to see happen in the game is not necessarily related to what is meta. In fact, what makes you think the current state ISN'T how Anet wants it to begin with? 

 

So the idea you have that Anet should forcibly 'engineer' the meta so the game works how you see fit with classes assigned to some 'role' they would excel in that doesn't even exist doesn't make sense. That's just fantasy. 

 

Honestly, you have overthought this ... by alot. There isn't 'roles' and there isn't any 'meta engineering'. It's literally Anet looking at some metric and seeing if build catergories meet some threshold for play based on that metric. Clearly if it doesn't meet that threshold, they buff it, likely inline with how they want the class to work based on it's theme. Never in the 8+ years has this game existed has Anet ever said "Hey, we want THIS to be meta in this game mode, so we just piled on a whole bunch of awesome stuff to it and gave it a role". This last patch was no exception. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Crab Fear.1624]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but that doesn't change what I said. What Anet likes to see happen in the game is not necessarily related to what is meta. In fact, what makes you think the current state ISN'T how Anet wants it to begin with? 

 

So the idea you have that Anet should forcibly 'engineer' the meta so the game works how you see fit with classes assigned to some 'role' they would excel in that doesn't even exist doesn't make sense. That's just fantasy. 

 

Honestly, you have overthought this ... by alot. There isn't 'roles' and there isn't any 'meta engineering'. It's literally Anet looking at some metric and seeing if build catergories meet some threshold for play based on that metric. Clearly if it doesn't meet that threshold, they buff it, likely inline with how they want the class to work based on it's theme. Never in the 8+ years has this game existed has Anet ever said "Hey, we want THIS to be meta in this game mode, so we just piled on a whole bunch of awesome stuff to it and gave it a role". This last patch was no exception. 

 

My prime example because I main it, and have heard the mantra over and over, and now since we don't have to prep mantras, Ill just say it out right, the most effective tactic for thief is to +1 and decap.

 

This has been said outright, and any nerfs they make to thief, it is often this pigeon holing that they use to justify their nerfs.

 

They have outright "engineered" the meta for thief.

 

ANY deviation from any form of thief from +1/decapper, and (this is for the general population, not the god-tier players) and this little pesky effort is deleted.

 

They had a previous vision, but I imagine that it has changed as the internal face and leadership/focus has completely changed behind the scenes.

 

There really needs to be limited roles, otherwise why even have 9 classes.

 

Arguing against it is, and all I can think of as to why, is because players feel a connection or attachment to their "chosen", or favorite class.

 

But, they can't accept the limitations, and view others excelling at other roles they can't as unfair.

 

Really, the player needs to step back and look at all of their characters as a family, or an arsenal.

 

A toolset they can use to defeat their foes.

 

WvW and PvE can be a little more unorthodox, but there needs to be defined roles and limitations.

 

Luck, besides the RNG of crit, really needs to pulled out of the equation.

 

Guards should be locked into teamfight and support, necros can teamfight and tank, eles can duel and support, blah blah blah....

 

but once they start encroaching and outperforming, or even closely performing the roles of other classes, it needs to be nipped...and visa versa.

 

If Anet wants this current state of game, they wish to kill pvp.

 

Just to make another point, how prominent is x/shield and GS warrior in pvp now compared to necros(any type) or guardian of any type, or really compared to any class, and across all levels?

 

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

My prime example because I main it, and have heard the mantra over and over, and now since we don't have to prep mantras, Ill just say it out right, the most effective tactic for thief is to +1 and decap.

 

This has been said outright, and any nerfs they make to thief, it is often this pigeon holing that they use to justify their nerfs.

 

They have outright "engineered" the meta for thief.

No meta was engineered for the thief. The fact that you continue to say these things shows you don't understand what they mean. There are no roles that classes are 'defined to'; classes simply have groups of skills that excel at certain tasks. The reason for 9 different classes in a 'role-less' game is because people prefer playing certain themes and the classes do offer different ways for people to play the game. Anet knows players want this, so they provide it. Again, you are overthinking the 'why' of these things existing and interpreting things that aren't there. 

 

Let's take a different tack though. Assuming there are some 'roles' or whatever and Anet is balancing to put some classes in them, what makes you think they aren't make game changes exactly the way they want to achieve that? Somehow you think you have this figured out better than Anet does? That doesn't make sense. 

 

I have no doubt that WHATEVER Anet's goal is ... they know how to do it and how to get it. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Crab Fear.1624]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No meta was engineered for the thief. The fact that you continue to say these things shows you don't understand what they mean. There are no roles that classes are 'defined to'; 😁 classes simply have groups of skills that excel at certain tasks😁. The reason for 9 different classes in a 'role-less' game is because people prefer playing certain themes and the classes do offer different ways for people to play the game. Anet knows players want this, so they provide it. Again, you are overthinking the 'why' of these things existing and interpreting things that aren't there. 

 

Let's take a different tack though. Assuming there are some 'roles' or whatever and Anet is balancing to put some classes in them, what makes you think they aren't make game changes exactly the way they want to achieve that? Somehow you think you have this figured out better than Anet does? That doesn't make sense. 

 

I have no doubt that WHATEVER Anet's goal is ... they know how to do it and how to get it. 

I bold the stuff Ill address because it seems you are creeping towards the territory of putting me in a certain frame to discredit my claims instead of attacking the argument.

 

Thief has been outright pigeon holed into +1 and decapping, this is confirmed, and you might be the only one who would claim otherwise that I have seen so far, but perhaps that is just for today, because give me some time, but I will dig up and quote you agreeing exactly with that sentiment....

 

Im not going to make this about thief, because it is fine that they have a defined role, but that needs to extend to all classes.

 

Rooks, Knights, Pawns, Bishops, and Kings all have their roles and limitation, but not the Queen. The Queen can do everything.....everyone wants to be the Queen, or a Queen, or perhaps sing like Quee......nevermind......

 

"classes simply have groups of skills that excel at certain tasks", and to add other outlier skills, runes, or traits that allow them to deviate is the problem in pvp.

 

I don't think anet is making the changes to pvp they want, because iirc cmc has stated that he is limited in changes to functionality, only numbers, because it is up to the systems or skills team to make any of those changes.

 

I will look it up, but I think they are satisfied because of benchmarks in PVE.

 

What about pvp ANet?

 

-"The one  PvP guy in the back of room"-

 

 

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Crab Fear.1624 is right on this one.

 

Game is a mess right now because a handful of top classes are being allowed to be the strongest at several roles on a single build structure, whereas classes bellow them are only allowed to be good at one thing and then be completely useless at everything else.

 

This is pretty equivalent to sizing up the worth of a pawn in chess, to a rook or a queen. Good analogy for what this is allowing those top classes to do rotationally, vs. everything bellow them.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Arheundel.6451]

12 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

I think that the metas for each class need to be redefined, and then fixed into a more static role.

 

Once you place classes into a few static roles, any deviation that they begin to show from those intended roles needs to be nipped, but not too harshly.

 

But the roles should be harmonious but not too synergistic.

 

For example a +1 and decapper probably shouldnt have dueling abilities because of the mobility. Mobility and point control puts them around the map and unfair to fight.

 

Or a teamfighter, support, point holder should not have great mobility.

 

A duelist should have good sustain, and ability to hold points perhaps against multiple foes, but traversing the map should be slow and unproductive.

 

Teamfighters and sustain are the same but with more effect to the allies.

 

A decapper should melt if focused, but quickly take out single targets with lower health.

 

Deviating from roles is where the nerfs need to happen.

 

It may be sad to players who want it all, but it should be taught that you cant have it all.

 

So, no extremely mobile teamfighting tanks, and no extremly tanky decapper and +1s.

 

 

 

But, right now, it is opposite. You seem to be giving a bit, a good bit, of everything to the same few classes over and over.

 

When you have devs in a game allowed to design specs capable of doing everything with ease on a single build, having access to almost every single boon and capable of covering every role.....I wouldn't expect anything to change at any given time.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

20 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 is right on this one.

 

Game is a mess right now because a handful of top classes are being allowed to be the strongest at several roles on a single build structure, whereas classes bellow them are only allowed to be good at one thing and then be completely useless at everything else.

 

This is pretty equivalent to sizing up the worth of a pawn in chess, to a rook or a queen. Good analogy for what this is allowing those top classes to do rotationally, vs. everything bellow them.

He might have some valid observations about the state of PVP, but his conclusions and ideas on how to address them are nonsense. The first thing he needs to understand is that there aren't 'roles' for classes to have, or be built around, or whatever overblown class structure he thinks exists.

 

It's THIS simple. Class has a theme, skills they have are related to that theme. That set of skills will likely be good at SOMETHING in specific game modes and when players determine what those somethings are, they will exploit them in competitive modes. Some classes have more somethings than others. That's not really a problem because the meta changes, someone else's 'not somethings' can become 'somethings'. There is no more to it than this. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952